Border Poll discussion

RobMc59 · 13-04-2019 8:40pm

jm08 wrote: »

Who has got to suck up what?

If you don't like the fact no one is clamouring for a border referendum in NI those who want one have to accept that until such times NI may want one.

RobMc59 · 13-04-2019 8:41pm

Farawayhome wrote: »

Why can't violence be used?

What do you mean?

Farawayhome · 13-04-2019 8:42pm

RobMc59 wrote: »

What do you mean?

Why should anyone just suck it up? Can't they use violent methods to make change?

downcow · 13-04-2019 8:43pm

downcow wrote: »

You like things to be black and white and simplistic.
What is the criteria you use to decide if an organisation is sectarian?

Francie instead of having a go at me for not answering questions. Why don’t you just answer the question

FrancieBrady · 13-04-2019 8:46pm

downcow wrote: »

Francie instead of having a go at me for not answering questions. Why don’t you just answer the question

Anyone can see the answer, the criteria is met in their constitution. It's kinda obvious.

downcow · 13-04-2019 9:03pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Anyone can see the answer, the criteria is met in their constitution. It's kinda obvious.

What about answering the question. This is not a OO specific question

downcow · 13-04-2019 9:04pm

downcow wrote: »

You like things to be black and white and simplistic.
What is the criteria you use to decide if an organisation is sectarian?

Simple question francie. Stop ducking and diving.

FrancieBrady · 13-04-2019 9:06pm

downcow wrote: »

What about answering the question. This is not a OO specific question

Do they engage in bigoted actions against people because they are a different religion.

Fairly simple.

And no, having rules that you must be a certain religion is not sectarianism.

RobMc59 · 13-04-2019 9:06pm

Farawayhome wrote: »

Why should anyone just suck it up? Can't they use violent methods to make change?

Do you think that would be be a good tactic to persuade the people of NI to want to participate in a Border referendum?

Farawayhome · 13-04-2019 9:09pm

RobMc59 wrote: »

Do you think that would be be a good tactic to persuade the people of NI to want to participate in a Border referendum?

What's it to you? What you got against it?

RobMc59 · 13-04-2019 9:10pm

Farawayhome wrote: »

What's it to you? What you got against it?

Are you for real?

Farawayhome · 13-04-2019 9:16pm

RobMc59 wrote: »

Are you for real?

Yeah. What you got against it?

downcow · 13-04-2019 10:14pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Do they engage in bigoted actions against people because they are a different religion.

Fairly simple.

And no, having rules that you must be a certain religion is not sectarianism.

Your two statements above seem in slight contradiction but I’ll give that a by ball

Would it be sectarian if you had an event in a gaa club where the crowd chanted oh ah up the ra. Or a pub where they sang simply the best in reference to the uda. ??
Just trying to get a handle on it as these may not fit strictly into your criteria of religion

I genuinely think this is an important discussion. And I appreciate your willingness to engage

FrancieBrady · 13-04-2019 10:28pm

downcow wrote: »

Your two statements above seem in slight contradiction but I’ll give that a by ball

Would it be sectarian if you had an event in a gaa club where the crowd chanted oh ah up the ra. Or a pub where they sang simply the best in reference to the uda. ??
Just trying to get a handle on it as these may not fit strictly into your criteria of religion

I genuinely think this is an important discussion. And I appreciate your willingness to engage

Incidents of sectarianism elsewhere do not excuse an organisation that has it enshrined in it's charter downcow.

You can go on about it elsewhere all you wish. It isn't a competition. It should be called out and wiped out where ever it occurs.

downcow · 13-04-2019 10:41pm

downcow wrote: »

Your two statements above seem in slight contradiction but I’ll give that a by ball

Would it be sectarian if you had an event in a gaa club where the crowd chanted oh ah up the ra. Or a pub where they sang simply the best in reference to the uda. ??
Just trying to get a handle on it as these may not fit strictly into your criteria of religion

I genuinely think this is an important discussion. And I appreciate your willingness to engage

Francie you are ducking again. This thread is not just about the OO Have a crack at the question

FrancieBrady · 13-04-2019 10:47pm

downcow wrote: »

Francie you are ducking again. This thread is not just about the OO Have a crack at the question

What?

Don't you know what sectarianism is?

downcow · 14-04-2019 9:26am

FrancieBrady wrote: »

What?

Don't you know what sectarianism is?

http://bfy.tw/NDZn

Why do you refuse to answer this very simple question

“Would it be sectarian if you had an event in a gaa club where the crowd chanted oh ah up the ra. Or a pub where they sang simply the best in reference to the uda. ??”

FrancieBrady · 14-04-2019 9:42am

downcow wrote: »

http://bfy.tw/NDZn

Why do you refuse to answer this very simple question

“Would it be sectarian if you had an event in a gaa club where the crowd chanted oh ah up the ra. Or a pub where they sang simply the best in reference to the uda. ??”

I'm refusing to play your deflection game.

Is the OO constitutionally sectarian? Yes it is.
Is it and has it been guilty of sectarianism in practice. Yes it has.
Have any steps been taken to change the ethos of this organisation. None whatsoever.

No amount of finger pointing is going to excuse that.

downcow · 14-04-2019 10:16am

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I'm refusing to play your deflection game.

Is the OO constitutionally sectarian? Yes it is.
Is it and has it been guilty of sectarianism in practice. Yes it has.
Have any steps been taken to change the ethos of this organisation. None whatsoever.

No amount of finger pointing is going to excuse that.

Agree with your first two points. Disagree completely with your third point.

I answer every question I am asked while you get away with answer very few and when you do it’s also a riddle.
I have repeatedly asked you one simple question and for some reason you refuse to answer it. So I’ll not be answering any more of your questions until you do.

Here’s the question in case you have forgot

Would it be sectarian if you had an event in a gaa club where the crowd chanted ooh ah up the ra. Or a pub where they sang simply the best in reference to the uda. ??

FrancieBrady · 14-04-2019 10:18am

downcow wrote: »

Agree with your first two points. Disagree completely with your third point.

I answer every question I am asked while you get away with answer very few and when you do it’s also a riddle.
I have repeatedly asked you one simple question and for some reason you refuse to answer it. So I’ll not be answering any more of your questions until you do.

Here’s the question in case you have forgot

Would it be sectarian if you had an event in a gaa club where the crowd chanted ooh ah up the ra. Or a pub where they sang simply the best in reference to the uda. ??

I have already accepted and dealt with that.

Incidents of sectarianism elsewhere do not excuse an organisation.....

downcow · 14-04-2019 10:18am

Just watching Andrew Marr and an interesting little stat was given. 100,000 people have signed up to learn Valarian which is more that are learning Scottish Gaelic

jm08 · 14-04-2019 10:25am

RobMc59 wrote: »

If you don't like the fact no one is clamouring for a border referendum in NI those who want one have to accept that until such times NI may want one.

I'm not clamouring for a border referendum and I'm in no hurry for a UI. I do think that since everything else has failed (Stormont Gov., Direct Rule, and Stormont Assembly), its probably the only solution to NI. I'd support joint rule between British and Irish Gov. until that comes about.

jm08 · 14-04-2019 10:34am

downcow wrote: »

Agree with your first two points. Disagree completely with your third point.

I answer every question I am asked while you get away with answer very few and when you do it’s also a riddle.
I have repeatedly asked you one simple question and for some reason you refuse to answer it. So I’ll not be answering any more of your questions until you do.

Here’s the question in case you have forgot

Would it be sectarian if you had an event in a gaa club where the crowd chanted ooh ah up the ra. Or a pub where they sang simply the best in reference to the uda. ??

Its probably easier to define by describing what the opposite to sectariamism is:

Non-sectarians espouse that free association and tolerance of different beliefs are the cornerstone to successful peaceful human interaction. They espouse political and religious pluralism.

Now a definition of Pluralism:

Pluralism as a political philosophy is the recognition and affirmation of diversity within a political body, which permits the peaceful coexistence of different interests, convictions, and lifestyles.

downcow · 14-04-2019 11:10am

jm08 wrote: »

Its probably easier to define by describing what the opposite to sectariamism is:

Now a definition of Pluralism:

I couldn’t argue with any of that.

downcow · 14-04-2019 11:15am

jm08 wrote: »

I'm not clamouring for a border referendum and I'm in no hurry for a UI. I do think that since everything else has failed (Stormont Gov., Direct Rule, and Stormont Assembly), its probably the only solution to NI. I'd support joint rule between British and Irish Gov. until that comes about.

So basically screw democracy. Of course this would also require the gfa to be ripped up.
It’s a bit drastic.
Why not review the assembly so as sf can’t pull it down when they are not getting their way. Maybe model it on the Dail, Scottish assembly, or Westminster. That would be radical wouldn’t it.

Junkyard Tom · 14-04-2019 11:25am

downcow wrote: »

sf can’t pull it down when they are not getting their way.

Reproductive Rights
Scotland ✓
Wales ✓
England ✓
Norn Iron ✗ -- Blocked by Unionists.

Minority Language Legislation
Scotland ✓
Wales ✓
Norn Iron ✗ -- Blocked by Unionists.

Marriage Equality Legislation
Scotland ✓
Wales ✓
England ✓
Norn Iron ✗ -- Blocked by Unionists.

Unionists: 'It's SF's fault'.

Dyr · 14-04-2019 11:35am

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Reproductive Rights
Scotland ✓
Wales ✓
England ✓
Norn Iron ✗ -- Blocked by Unionists.

Minority Language Legislation
Scotland ✓
Wales ✓
Norn Iron ✗ -- Blocked by Unionists.

Marriage Equality Legislation
Scotland ✓
Wales ✓
England ✓
Norn Iron ✗ -- Blocked by Unionists.

Unionists: 'It's SF's fault'.

100% British until it interferes with their bigotry.

FrancieBrady · 14-04-2019 11:38am

jm08 wrote: »

I'm not clamouring for a border referendum and I'm in no hurry for a UI. I do think that since everything else has failed (Stormont Gov., Direct Rule, and Stormont Assembly), its probably the only solution to NI. I'd support joint rule between British and Irish Gov. until that comes about.

Establishing 'Joint authority' without consent would be against the GFA. But there is nothing stopping an increasingly exasperated and DUP betrayed Westminster seeking that 'consent' in the form of a vote.

Would the numbers be there to get it over the line?...it would be fascinating to find out.

Either way, the is no doubt that a big decision on the future is facing northern Ireland in the short rather than the long term.

FrancieBrady · 14-04-2019 11:51am

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Reproductive Rights
Scotland ✓
Wales ✓
England ✓
Norn Iron ✗ -- Blocked by Unionists.

Minority Language Legislation
Scotland ✓
Wales ✓
Norn Iron ✗ -- Blocked by Unionists.

Marriage Equality Legislation
Scotland ✓
Wales ✓
England ✓
Norn Iron ✗ -- Blocked by Unionists.

Unionists: 'It's SF's fault'.

It is no accident that democracy has failed so spectacularly imo.

The people of northern Ireland are being forced to live in a society that is controlled by religious fundamentalists.

Will a Tory government have the courage to dismantle that? Maybe if they can free themselves from getting into bed with the self same religious fundamentalists they will. We can already see the bitterness and anger that their blocking in Westminster has caused.

I can definitely see a Labour government tackling it and maybe developing Blair's ideas on joint authority.

jm08 · 14-04-2019 11:57am

downcow wrote: »

So basically screw democracy. Of course this would also require the gfa to be ripped up.
It’s a bit drastic.
Why not review the assembly so as sf can’t pull it down when they are not getting their way. Maybe model it on the Dail, Scottish assembly, or Westminster. That would be radical wouldn’t it.

Democracy is screwed in NI anyway. The largest party should govern and if there wasn't a majority in parliament, like-minded parties would agree a governing plan (look at how democracy works in most countries in Europe) - not anything like what happens in the Stormont Assembly.

As I've pointed out, everything else has been tried, the only thing left is joint authority.

As for Sinn Fein pulling the plug on the Assembly - that had to do with Arlene refusing to step aside while an investigation was going on. Thats what happens in democracies (eg, Francis Fitzgerald down here while investigations were conducted in which she was exoranated).

Do you think the DUP could function in a normal democracy bearing in mind they have used the Petition of Concern to block legislation something like 80 times (in comparision to Sinn Fein who have used it about 4 or 5 times)?

Border Poll discussion

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