Border Poll discussion

downcow

jm08 wrote: »

Democracy is screwed in NI anyway. The largest party should govern and if there wasn't a majority in parliament, like-minded parties would agree a governing plan (look at how democracy works in most countries in Europe) - not anything like what happens in the Stormont Assembly.

As I've pointed out, everything else has been tried, the only thing left is joint authority.

As for Sinn Fein pulling the plug on the Assembly - that had to do with Arlene refusing to step aside while an investigation was going on. Thats what happens in democracies (eg, Francis Fitzgerald down here while investigations were conducted in which she was exoranated).

Do you think the DUP could function in a normal democracy bearing in mind they have used the Petition of Concern to block legislation something like 80 times (in comparision to Sinn Fein who have used it about 4 or 5 times)?

I am all for any of the European models. None have been tried so far. And review the petition of concern which would let the equal marriage through immediately

downcow

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Reproductive Rights
Scotland ✓
Wales ✓
England ✓
Norn Iron ✗ -- Blocked by Unionists.

Minority Language Legislation
Scotland ✓
Wales ✓
Norn Iron ✗ -- Blocked by Unionists.

Marriage Equality Legislation
Scotland ✓
Wales ✓
England ✓
Norn Iron ✗ -- Blocked by Unionists.

Unionists: 'It's SF's fault'.

Every other party in NI will return to assembly except sf
Sf are slow learners when it comes to democracy.
They supported a system that allows a minority of religious zealots control the equal marriage issue and then they blame everyone but themselves. They need to grow up, get back in, and fight democratically for changes.
The dup have scored a huge own goal with equal marriage. Polls show that a majority of their supporters support equal marriage.
But you should not mix that issue of rights up with hobbies like learning minority languages

jm08

downcow wrote: »

I am all for any of the European models. None have been tried so far. And review the petition of concern which would let the equal marriage through immediately

Yes they have. Stormont Government up to 1973 when Direct Rule had to be introduced. Up to Arlene taking over, it looked like some effort was being made (but that was with the Petition of Concern).

Do you honestly think that anyone would trust the DUP running the show in NI (as the largest party)? Who would work with them to provide stable Government? Their management of the RHI scheme etc. shows they are incompetent if not corrupt and you think they should be running NI?

Avatar MIA

downcow wrote: »

They need to grow up, get back in, and fight democratically for changes.

Stormont is a strange democracy - it's more like democracy adjacent.

jm08

downcow wrote: »

Every other party in NI will return to assembly except sf

Sf are slow learners when it comes to democracy.
They supported a system that allows a minority of religious zealots control the equal marriage issue and then they blame everyone but themselves. They need to grow up, get back in, and fight democratically for changes.
The dup have scored a huge own goal with equal marriage. Polls show that a majority of their supporters support equal marriage.
But you should not mix that issue of rights up with hobbies like learning minority languages

Are the other parties just blaming Sinn Fein for getting the Assembly up and running or do they think that the DUP should stop blocking an Irish Language Act, Marriage equality, abortion etc.

From what I understand, people are not entirely blaming Sinn Fein for not giving in! From what I gather, an agreement was reached between the DUP and Sinn Fein but the Orange Order pulled the plug on it.

FrancieBrady

jm08 wrote: »

Are the other parties just blaming Sinn Fein for getting the Assembly up and running or do they think that the DUP should stop blocking an Irish Language Act, Marriage equality, abortion etc.

From what I understand, people are not entirely blaming Sinn Fein for not giving in! From what I gather, an agreement was reached between the DUP and Sinn Fein but the Orange Order pulled the plug on it.

This is the reality of the OO influence. Arlene went along with May's first agreement with the EU but got waylaid by the real puppeteers of the DUP and was sent out onto the steps of Stormont to pull her support.

I think we have yet to see what the price of that treachery will bring, if the Tories ever get into power without depending on the DUP.

downcow

jm08 wrote: »

Yes they have. Stormont Government up to 1973 when Direct Rule had to be introduced. Up to Arlene taking over, it looked like some effort was being made (but that was with the Petition of Concern).

Do you honestly think that anyone would trust the DUP running the show in NI (as the largest party)? Who would work with them to provide stable Government? Their management of the RHI scheme etc. shows they are incompetent if not corrupt and you think they should be running NI?

That’s not what I said. Dup don’t have the numbers so a voluntary coalition would be necessary. And I believe would work.

You do know that Michealle O’Neil toured the country encouraging as many people as possible to sign up to the RHI in the weeks before it closed

jm08

downcow wrote: »

That’s not what I said. Dup don’t have the numbers so a voluntary coalition would be necessary. And I believe would work.

Who would voluntarily go into Government with the DUP (aside from the Tories)? The TUV & UUP or Alliance. Similarly, who would go into coalition with Sinn Fein - whatever about Alliance, I can't see the SDLP doing so. The smaller partners would be eaten alive.

You do know that Michealle O’Neil toured the country encouraging as many people as possible to sign up to thi in the weeks before it closed

And?

downcow

jm08 wrote: »

And?

Just that sf can’t wash their hands of RHI. They were partners in government. They were heavily promoting it with there people.
To suggest Stormont fell because sf were trying to clean the place up is a joke. But one that many believe

BonnieSituation

downcow wrote: »

Just that sf can’t wash their hands of RHI. They were partners in government. They were heavily promoting it with there people.
To suggest Stormont fell because sf were trying to clean the place up is a joke. But one that many believe

SAme way you can't wash your hand of the inbuilt OO sectarianism no matter how hard you try.

---

Any chance you can enlighten us with details proof of Michell O'Neill's RHI roadtrip?

downcow

BonnieSituation wrote: »

SAme way you can't wash your hand of the inbuilt OO sectarianism no matter how hard you try.

---

Any chance you can enlighten us with details proof of Michell O'Neill's RHI roadtrip?

Bonnie I think you will find a few posts ago I categorically stated that the OO were sectarian. I know it may be hard for you to understand that some of us try to be objective and honest.

I’m not the one in denial here

As for your request. Here you go. One of many. https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/rhi-scandal/sinn-feins-michelle-oneill-in-firing-line-over-rhi-as-role-of-her-department-in-hyping-faulty-scheme-revealed-35404342.html

FrancieBrady

BonnieSituation wrote: »

SAme way you can't wash your hand of the inbuilt OO sectarianism no matter how hard you try.

---

Any chance you can enlighten us with details proof of Michell O'Neill's RHI roadtrip?

It's a familiar DUP tactic anyhow. 'Spread the blame by any means possible'. As you can see from the evidence presented to the RHI inquiry.

Day 108 of the inquiry started with a bang, and provided a raft of incredible information for the panel to get to grips with.

One of which was the admission that a DUP adviser anonymously sent civil servants' "explosive" emails to the media and to his department's top civil servant, in order to take pressure off the party at the height of the RHI scandal in 2017.

Simon Hamilton, a former Stormont economy minister, said his adviser John Robinson had taken the action with his knowledge.

He conceded it hadn't been his "proudest moment" and claimed it was done because the DUP had been under a sustained attack by political rivals and the media over the affair.

The emails showed contact between civil servants in Stormont's enterprise department and industry officials in summer 2015 about impending changes to the scheme to reduce its lucrative subsidies.

Inquiry chair Sir Patrick Coghlin said what Mr Hamilton and his party had done was use the "cloak of anonymity" to shift the blame from the DUP to civil servants, for whom he had responsibility as minister.

BonnieSituation

downcow wrote: »

Bonnie I think you will find a few posts ago I categorically stated that the OO were sectarian. I know it may be hard for you to understand that some of us try to be objective and honest.

I’m not the one in denial here

As for your request. Here you go. One of many. https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/rhi-scandal/sinn-feins-michelle-oneill-in-firing-line-over-rhi-as-role-of-her-department-in-hyping-faulty-scheme-revealed-35404342.html

You recognised OO sectarianism did ya? Without any qualifications?

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Did you just link me to a google search with no commentary? I think we both know that that's a no-no.
As is your jibe at my inability to understand? That's attacking the poster not the post isn't it?

In a short few passages you managed to run foul of several rules I would wager.

You should be careful.

Annd9

downcow wrote: »

But you should not mix that issue of rights up with hobbies like learning minority languages

Do you think marching around flying flags and playing instruments is a right or a hobby ?

jm08

downcow wrote: »

Just that sf can’t wash their hands of RHI. They were partners in government. They were heavily promoting it with there people.

What they asked was that Arlene to step aside while the enquiry was going on. I suppose we will hear of Sinn Fein's involvement in the scheme once the report is published.

To suggest Stormont fell because sf were trying to clean the place up is a joke. But one that many believe

Stormont fell because of intrangience from the DUP and their spiteful attitude to the Irish language by withdrawing the Liofa grant to their blocking the enaction of an Irish Language Act and then their overuse of the Petition of Concern that locks NI back in the 1600s.

downcow

BonnieSituation wrote: »

You recognised OO sectarianism did ya? Without any qualifications?

---


Did you just link me to a google search with no commentary? I think we both know that that's a no-no.
As is your jibe at my inability to understand? That's attacking the poster not the post isn't it?

In a short few passages you managed to run foul of several rules I would wager.

You should be careful.

Well now. You could make it up!
The link was exactly what you asked for ie some evidence of sf supporting rhi.

I can’t even remember what is said about you not understanding - but have a wee read at the accusations that fly at me when I evidence stuff others don’t want to hear.

I suppose you had to deflect my evidence some way. And I wasn’t being smart. I just despair that many in the nationalist community have taken sf line hook line and sinker re their non involvement in rhi etc

And yes, I accept the OO is sectarian, with no qualifications. Look back a page or two and you see for yourself.

What you will not find me doing is willfully misrepresenting stuff, refusing to answer questions, answering with riddles and spinning, or unprepared to admit when I am clearly wrong and apologising

They would be decent parameters for all to operate on. And Bonnie you are certainly not the biggest culprit on hear.

downcow

Annd9 wrote: »

Do you think marching around flying flags and playing instruments is a right or a hobby ?

Wow that is a really good question.
I guess those that do it see it as a right, but a right with significant responsibilities and not to be put upon those that don’t want it.
I guess those not directly involved probably see it as a hobby.
Both reasonable positions, maybe the truth lies somewhere in the middle

RobMc59

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Reproductive Rights
Scotland ✓
Wales ✓
England ✓
Norn Iron ✗ -- Blocked by Unionists.

Minority Language Legislation
Scotland ✓
Wales ✓
Norn Iron ✗ -- Blocked by Unionists.

Marriage Equality Legislation
Scotland ✓
Wales ✓
England ✓
Norn Iron ✗ -- Blocked by Unionists.

Unionists: 'It's SF's fault'.

The Scottish method of government would be a good blueprint for a self governing Ulster in a UI imo.

downcow

jm08 wrote: »

What they asked was that Arlene to step aside while the enquiry was going on. I suppose we will hear of Sinn Fein's involvement in the scheme once the report is published.



Stormont fell because of intrangience from the DUP and their spiteful attitude to the Irish language by withdrawing the Liofa grant to their blocking the enaction of an Irish Language Act and then their overuse of the Petition of Concern that locks NI back in the 1600s.

Total nonsense.
Did Martin Magennis step aside during the Bloody Sunday inquiring. Did Gerry Adams step aside during the Marie Cahill affair.

Stormont fell because Sinn Fein were not getting it all their own way. Should the dup have pulled it down because the orangemen at twadell could not return home.

How would it be looked upon if a party pulled out of a parliament anywhere in the world because they weren’t getting their way.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Wow that is a really good question.
I guess those that do it see it as a right, but a right with significant responsibilities and not to be put upon those that don’t want it.
I guess those not directly involved probably see it as a hobby.
Both reasonable positions, maybe the truth lies somewhere in the middle

The OO has been pressuring their member and leader of the DUP to use their 'power' over the Tories to get marching where they are not wanted.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/orange-order-drumcree-march-portadown-history-conflict-dup-northern-ireland-a8432901.html

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/orange-order-wants-drumcree-parade-included-in-dup-demands-2qcqjrx8r

But let's ignore that too.

Fionn1952

downcow wrote: »

Total nonsense.
Did Martin Magennis step aside during the Bloody Sunday inquiring. Did Gerry Adams step aside during the Marie Cahill affair.

Stormont fell because Sinn Fein were not getting it all their own way. Should the dup have pulled it down because the orangemen at twadell could not return home.

How would it be looked upon if a party pulled out of a parliament anywhere in the world because they weren’t getting their way.

In all honesty, can you REALLY not see ANY difference in any of these scenarios you're highlighting?

As a slight aside, is the misspelling of Martin McGuinness intentional? I've noticed this exact misspelling repeatedly from some of the more...entrenched members of the Unionist community, and I've never really understood it. I'm just perplexed as to how you can manage to not know the name of one of the most significant political actors in NI history, whatever your opinion of him.

downcow

Fionn1952 wrote: »

In all honesty, can you REALLY not see ANY difference in any of these scenarios you're highlighting?

As a slight aside, is the misspelling of Martin McGuinness intentional? I've noticed this exact misspelling repeatedly from some of the more...entrenched members of the Unionist community, and I've never really understood it. I'm just perplexed as to how you can manage to not know the name of one of the most significant political actors in NI history, whatever your opinion of him.

When I read a post like this I despair at where some heads are on hear. I am absolutely not aware of any misspelling and don’t have a clue what the correct spelling is.

Well of course the scenarios are all different otherwise I would have just gave one

Fionn1952

downcow wrote: »

When I read a post like this I despair at where some heads are on hear. I am absolutely not aware of any misspelling and don’t have a clue what the correct spelling is.

Well of course the scenarios are all different otherwise I would have just gave one

You're not aware of any misspelling and have no clue what the correct spelling is?! I'll give you a clue.....read the post you're replying to!

Ok, so we've established the scenarios are different, good start.

Can you think of a significant material difference between the scenarios you highlighted and the RHI inquiry? One which may have made it appropriate for Arleen Foster to step down, which didnt apply to your other scenarios? Anything at all?!

downcow

Fionn1952 wrote: »

You're not aware of any misspelling and have no clue what the correct spelling is?! I'll give you a clue.....read the post you're replying to!

Ok, so we've established the scenarios are different, good start.

Can you think of a significant material difference between the scenarios you highlighted and the RHI inquiry? One which may have made it appropriate for Arleen Foster to step down, which didnt apply to your other scenarios? Anything at all?!

I see no reason why she should step down in response to an sf request.
I am afraid the request holds no credibility as sf dropped that as a precondition to returning to government.
Is there many examples of first ministers or priministers standing down for enquiries?

Fionn1952

downcow wrote: »

I see no reason why she should step down in response to an sf request.
I am afraid the request holds no credibility as sf dropped that as a precondition to returning to government.
Is there many examples of first ministers or priministers standing down for enquiries?

Any chance of answering the question, instead of substituting in your own and answering with a question?

downcow

Fionn1952 wrote: »

Any chance of answering the question, instead of substituting in your own and answering with a question?

Which part of NO in the answer did you not understand?

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

I see no reason why she should step down in response to an sf request.
I am afraid the request holds no credibility as sf dropped that as a precondition to returning to government.
Is there many examples of first ministers or priministers standing down for enquiries?

The UUP, the SDLP, the Alliance party and SF all called on her to step aside.

Never let the truth get in the way of gilding the old lily.

jm08

downcow wrote: »

Total nonsense.
Did Martin Magennis step aside during the Bloody Sunday inquiring. Did Gerry Adams step aside during the Marie Cahill affair.

I don't see why McGuinness would step aside as he was not being investigated and only a witness. For the record though, the Stormont Assembly was suspended when McGuinness was giving his evidence (in Nov. 2003). He didn't become Deputy First Minister until 2007.

As for the Cahill affair, Adams wasn't in Government anywhere - just leader of Sinn Fein. I don't think Sinn Fein wanted Arlene to step down as Leader of the DUP!

Stormont fell because Sinn Fein were not getting it all their own way. Should the dup have pulled it down because the orangemen at twadell could not return home.

Yea, we all know it was the DUP's Way or the High Way in Stormont. The DUP, with their blocking of everything were getting everything their way.

How would it be looked upon if a party pulled out of a parliament anywhere in the world because they weren’t getting their way.

I doubt if any Assembly in the world would get away with pulling a Petition of Concern stunt as much as the DUP have in Stormont.

jm08

downcow wrote: »

I see no reason why she should step down in response to an sf request.
I am afraid the request holds no credibility as sf dropped that as a precondition to returning to government.
Is there many examples of first ministers or priministers standing down for enquiries?

Yes, here in Ireland. Frances Fitzgerald stepped down as Tanaiste and a Minister over the Garda Whistleblower case.

In a statement, Fitzgerald said that she would be stepping down with an immediate effect. She said she believed the decision was necessary “to avoid an unwelcome and potentially destabilising general election at this historically critical time”.
“Throughout my career I have always sought to act with integrity and responsibility, and that is why I have decided on this occasion to put the national interest ahead of my own personal reputation,” she said.
“I have always believed in fairness and equality and these principles have guided my work as Minister for Children and Youth Affairs, as Minister for Justice and Equality, and now as Minister for Business, Enterprise and Innovation.

https://www.thejournal.ie/frances-fitzgerald-resigns-3719887-Nov2017/

She was cleared of any wrong doing afterwards.

McMurphy

downcow wrote: »

Total nonsense.
Did Martin Magennis step aside during the Bloody Sunday inquiring. Did Gerry Adams step aside during the Marie Cahill affair.

Stormont fell because Sinn Fein were not getting it all their own way. Should the dup have pulled it down because the orangemen at twadell could not return home.

How would it be looked upon if a party pulled out of a parliament anywhere in the world because they weren’t getting their way.

The.deliberately misspelling of his name aside, what in under jaysis would Martin McGuinness have stepped aside from and why?