Border Poll discussion

BonnieSituation

I'm back to the laptop now and managed to dig up this gobsmacked blog I had saved. Fascinating snippets on Irish and Prods. Check it out my dear buachaill.



http://amgobsmacked.blogspot.com/2013/

downcow

BonnieSituation wrote: »

I'm back to the laptop now and managed to dig up this gobsmacked blog I had saved. Fascinating snippets on Irish and Prods. Check it out my dear buachaill.



http://amgobsmacked.blogspot.com/2013/

Bonnie I haven’t opened your link but it’s worth note that
The rhc are the most extreme wing of the uvf. The pup represented both of them politically. Many prominent figures in the pup decided to try and claim back Irish from the ira. Most notably David ervines wife.
I think fair enough. Whatever floats your boat. But don’t ever forget they are the extreme wing of a very sectarian murder machine. Not the greatest example for me to follow.
But listen. As I said I am a Scots Presbyterian by decent. I believe in individuality. There are some prod groups in orange halls who do Irish dancing and even learn Irish. Fair play to them. But don’t expect that to be a rationale for compulsory diddly dee stuff for all prods. For every 1 prod learning Irish I gues there are several hundred in flute bands.

downcow

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

In the future Downcow you'll be the one who'll need to make the case for the continuing existence of NI. Can you make a good case for the continuation of British jurisdiction in the north?

Junkyard. I admit things are a bit ropey with brexit etc. But that will all pass. And you problem is that more and more nationalists are calling themselves northern Irish. As do I.
I am very much northern Irish first and British second. So you need to stop nationalist loving life in NI our your dream is screwed

downcow

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

In the future Downcow you'll be the one who'll need to make the case for the continuing existence of NI. Can you make a good case for the continuation of British jurisdiction in the north?

Junkyard. I admit things are a bit ropey with brexit etc. But that will all pass. And you problem is that more and more nationalists are calling themselves northern Irish. As do I.
I am very much northern Irish first and British second. So you need to stop nationalist loving life in NI or your dream is screwed

downcow

BonnieSituation wrote: »

I'm back to the laptop now and managed to dig up this gobsmacked blog I had saved. Fascinating snippets on Irish and Prods. Check it out my dear buachaill.



http://amgobsmacked.blogspot.com/2013/

Bonnie I think the bit you are struggling with is the prod concept of do what you want be what you want.
eg look at famous sports stars in NI. Alex Higgins, George best, joey Dunlop, Eddie Irvine, mary peters, Carl frampton Rory best, Jeremy McWilliams And I could go on. All prods. Do you know why? Because diversity was encouraged. Even Rory McIlroy (who was a catholic but reared in prod area and prod schools).
Catloics were frowned upon if they done anything other that Gaelic sports. We had a few footballers who broke out of that.
Diversity = opportunity

BonnieSituation

downcow wrote: »

I am not in the slightest offended. I am a Presbyterian and we are very much into individuality. So I love the diversity.
Just wondering why so many nationalists don’t like to refer to the maiden city by its correct name. And why roi feel the need to change its name on road signs?? Simple question

You love which diversity?

I reckon that many Nationalists view the imposition of Londonderry as the name of the City and it being oft-repeated in a snide and corrective way as anathema to them simply because y'know, it's only really ever used in a snide and corrective way.

You even see/hear the wee pause that a loyalist makes as his brain is about to say Derry, cos that's the name of the city that everyone uses day-to-day and then has to fix it lest his unionism be diluted.

It's also the simple case that a SUBSTANTIAL majority of the city is nationalist and call it Derry and for some reason the use of the name of DERRY really gets to you despite living in An Dúin.

As a separate and foreign jurisdiction surely you really don't care what we call Doire? No?

Have you ever gotten annoyed at the "Apprentice Boys of Derry" or "City of Derry Airport" or in fact "Derry City and Strabane Council"?

Derry City Council changed its name in 1984 and still people went on and on about its "REAL NAME".

Maybe a ballot of the citizens would be an idea?

I can't imagine there was such opprobrium for the people of Kingston-upon-Hull for renaming their city.

As a Downman I don't know why it bothers you so.

downcow wrote: »

I am very sorry Bonnie. I’ll speak to my community tomorrow and tell them that Bonnie is sad about how we want to celebrate our culture and she would like us to have some diddly Dee bands and dance with our arms by our sides And why not also play a game dominantly with our hands and call it football.
You must be having a laugh Bonnie if you think we should display our culture to make you happy.

Given your offence at the use of Irish on signs I'm utterly confused at your interpretation of what I stated in English.

I said that I think it's sad that your people feel the need to be endlessly triumphalist. I'm not sad about it.

My confusion is what exactly you are celebrating on say, April 15 by having flags up at all?

As regards "...she would like us to have some diddly Dee bands and dance with our arms by our sides And why not also play a game dominantly with our hands and call it football.
You must be having a laugh Bonnie if you think we should display our culture to make you happy."

1. Very much a lad. But sure look. I'm capable of looking past a username and not taking it literal. Unless I am talking to a COW? :rolleyes:

2. Diddly bands? I honestly couldn't be arsed listening to most Irish traditional music lest I go deaf. But sure all us nationalists are Wolfe Tone loving SF/IRA supporters.

3. Arms by my side? Do we have to go on now about your offence by Irish dancing now?

4. Ah yes. Gaelic football. Awful eh? The 60s and 90s must have been terrible for you as the Mournemen swept all before them. I guess you have issue with Canadians, Americans and Australians and their national football code?
As a Northern unionist I'm guessing you like rugby football? Which has even less contact with the foot as it happens...

5. So yeah, no idea how you thought I was SAD. Maybe I should have said that I think triumphalist flag waving for no apparent reason outside of clear triumphalism is pathetic and sad.

I have to say I do like the idea that you thought you've been talking to a cailín all this time.

BonnieSituation

downcow wrote: »

Bonnie I haven’t opened your link but it’s worth note that
The rhc are the most extreme wing of the uvf. The pup represented both of them politically. Many prominent figures in the pup decided to try and claim back Irish from the ira. Most notably David ervines wife.
I think fair enough. Whatever floats your boat. But don’t ever forget they are the extreme wing of a very sectarian murder machine. Not the greatest example for me to follow.
But listen. As I said I am a Scots Presbyterian by decent. I believe in individuality. There are some prod groups in orange halls who do Irish dancing and even learn Irish. Fair play to them. But don’t expect that to be a rationale for compulsory diddly dee stuff for all prods. For every 1 prod learning Irish I gues there are several hundred in flute bands.

I think you're referring to David Ervine's sister Linda.

Like David she saw the futility of dividing symbolism between the two groups. and like David she has sought to use the similarities in culture and proximity to heal old wounds.

You haven't opened my link because you know it'll blow your little bigoted head apart and render most of our nonsense spouted about Gaeilge and Nationalism null and void.

As an aside, the article is not about the RHC but I used that as an example of how a disgustingly bigoted and murderous loyalist gang can use Irish and it is not the preserve of solely nationalists. I could have used any picture in that blog post. But you have your excuse to remain ignorant.

BonnieSituation

downcow wrote: »

Bonnie I think the bit you are struggling with is the prod concept of do what you want be what you want.
eg look at famous sports stars in NI. Alex Higgins, George best, joey Dunlop, Eddie Irvine, mary peters, Carl frampton Rory best, Jeremy McWilliams And I could go on. All prods. Do you know why? Because diversity was encouraged. Even Rory McIlroy (who was a catholic but reared in prod area and prod schools).
Catloics were frowned upon if they done anything other that Gaelic sports. We had a few footballers who broke out of that.
Diversity = opportunity

Struggling with what concept?

James Brown

downcow wrote: »

Bonnie I haven’t opened your link but it’s worth note that
The rhc are the most extreme wing of the uvf. The pup represented both of them politically. Many prominent figures in the pup decided to try and claim back Irish from the ira. Most notably David ervines wife.
I think fair enough. Whatever floats your boat. But don’t ever forget they are the extreme wing of a very sectarian murder machine. Not the greatest example for me to follow.
But listen. As I said I am a Scots Presbyterian by decent. I believe in individuality. There are some prod groups in orange halls who do Irish dancing and even learn Irish. Fair play to them. But don’t expect that to be a rationale for compulsory diddly dee stuff for all prods. For every 1 prod learning Irish I gues there are several hundred in flute bands.

But the Scots have their own diddly dee stuff. It's all derived from Celtic traditions I would have thought. There is certainly cross over culturally. Any differences held onto are pretty recent in the history of things. There's many a prod down south you know? Are we that arsed? I've very little in common with the Gaeltacht but it's part of my heritage and culture, I don't see the problem with differences, what you like, don't like other than a misguided sense of winning or losing in some sad game.

Junkyard Tom

downcow wrote: »

So you need to stop nationalist loving life in NI

Oh I don't need to do that when the DUP/Unionists are doing a good job of it themselves. Another thing, I'd like to see the six counties brought home but I'm not in any rush.

The soft unification of Ireland is working away in the background [why do you think SF are so anti-Brexit?] and I'm perfectly happy with the British Government continuing to pay for the failed statelet that is NI while the issues of the past fade into folk memory.

FrancieBrady

Quite a stupendous revelation really, that the only thing standing in the way of one of the world's oldest languages imbued with the history and heritage of the whole island cannot have equal status because a small group of people get upset when the see it used to taunt them.

Avatar MIA

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Quite a stupendous revelation really, that the only thing standing in the way of one of the world's oldest languages imbued with the history and heritage of the whole island cannot have equal status because a small group of people get upset when the see it used to taunt them.

Damn sneaky nationalists creating a language several thousand years ago so they can just throw it at us now and be all uppity.

RobMc59

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Oh I don't need to do that when the DUP/Unionists are doing a good job of it themselves. Another thing, I'd like to see a the six counties brought home but I'm not in any rush.

The soft unification of Ireland is working away in the background [why do you think SF are so anti-Brexit?] and I'm perfectly happy with the British Government continuing to pay for the failed statelet that is NI while the issues of the past fade into folk memory.

For your cunning plan to work Ireland would probably have to reverse 800 years of `Britishness`-whether you like it or not Ireland is very British in it`s way of life and whilst there has been some talk of cosying up to countries like France,that just is`nt going to happen-you have no cultural connection with them.And as regards NI not being part of the UK-I would`nt hold my breath if I were you.

BonnieSituation

RobMc59 wrote: »

For your cunning plan to work Ireland would probably have to reverse 800 years of `Britishness`-whether you like it or not Ireland is very British in it`s way of life and whilst there has been some talk of cosying up to countries like France,that just is`nt going to happen-you have no cultural connection with them.And as regards NI not being part of the UK-I would`nt hold my breath if I were you.

That's us told Rob.

RobMc59

BonnieSituation wrote: »

That's us told Rob.

Well reading your masterplan all evening has prompted me into action.:rolleyes:

FrancieBrady

RobMc59 wrote: »

For your cunning plan to work Ireland would probably have to reverse 800 years of `Britishness`-whether you like it or not Ireland is very British in it`s way of life and whilst there has been some talk of cosying up to countries like France,that just is`nt going to happen-you have no cultural connection with them.And as regards NI not being part of the UK-I would`nt hold my breath if I were you.

Who is talking about reversing our heritage? Nobody can deny the British were here.

RobMc59

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Who is talking about reversing our heritage? Nobody can deny the British were here.

It works both ways,Ireland has given so much culturally to the rest of the British Isles.

jm08

RobMc59 wrote: »

For your cunning plan to work Ireland would probably have to reverse 800 years of `Britishness`-whether you like it or not Ireland is very British in it`s way of life and whilst there has been some talk of cosying up to countries like France,that just is`nt going to happen-you have no cultural connection with them.And as regards NI not being part of the UK-I would`nt hold my breath if I were you.

You need to brush up on your Irish history Rob, have you ever heard of The Wild Geese who had their own brigade in the French Army (rather like there were Irish regiments in the British Army)? You may have heard of Chateau Lynch Bages - well, the Lynch part of that family moved to France from Galway after the Battle of the Boyne! In Bordeau alone, there are 14 vineyards with Irish heritage.

During Penal times, any Irish Catholics who could afford it, sent their children to France (a catholic country) to be educated. Daniel O'Connell, was sent there for his education.

By the way, Scotland would have huge connections with France as well - remember Mary Queen of Scots was brought up in France.

FrancieBrady

RobMc59 wrote: »

It works both ways,Ireland has given so much culturally to the rest of the British Isles.

And is Finchley any less British? Are they covering in fear that they'll be made more Irish if they even look at a word in Irish?

downcow

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Oh I don't need to do that when the DUP/Unionists are doing a good job of it themselves. Another thing, I'd like to see a the six counties brought home but I'm not in any rush.

The soft unification of Ireland is working away in the background [why do you think SF are so anti-Brexit?] and I'm perfectly happy with the British Government continuing to pay for the failed statelet that is NI while the issues of the past fade into folk memory.

We are all happy then

downcow

jm08 wrote: »

You need to brush up on your Irish history Rob, have you ever heard of The Wild Geese who had their own brigade in the French Army (rather like there were Irish regiments in the British Army)? You may have heard of Chateau Lynch Bages - well, the Lynch part of that family moved to France from Galway after the Battle of the Boyne! In Bordeau alone, there are 14 vineyards with Irish heritage.

During Penal times, any Irish Catholics who could afford it, sent their children to France (a catholic country) to be educated. Daniel O'Connell, was sent there for his education.

By the way, Scotland would have huge connections with France as well - remember Mary Queen of Scots was brought up in France.

..and I am sure you are all glued to France’s got talent, bet on the prix de jockey club and support Bordeaux on a Saturday afternoon
Of course you do

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

..and I am sure you are all glued to France’s got talent, bet on the prix de jockey club and support Bordeaux on a Saturday afternoon
Of course you do

Are you just going to insult and patronise everyone because you cannot come up with a reason to object to the Irish language that is viable and coherent?

Chips Lovell

Mod Note

One person has been banned for personal abuse. More broadly, the thread has veered off topic from a border poll into the usual Northern Ireland related trench warfare.

If you can't have a civil conversation, don't post here.

Thanks

Fionn1952

downcow wrote: »

..and I am sure you are all glued to France’s got talent, bet on the prix de jockey club and support Bordeaux on a Saturday afternoon
Of course you do

I've watched precisely as much of Frances got Talent as Britains got Talent, I tend towards Irish, followed by French horses. Watch more English soccer than French soccer (but do watch both) but more French rugby than English. I've spent more time in France, have as many French friends and acquaintances as English, prefer English music, prefer French food.....so what?

Particularly in modern Brexit Britain, I've never felt like I have less in common with the British. I have no problem with the historical ties and cultural crossover between Britain and Ireland......you however, seem terrified of any impact that living on the island of Ireland (see, I can be sensitive) may have had on you, culturally speaking.

jm08

downcow wrote: »

..and I am sure you are all glued to France’s got talent, bet on the prix de jockey club and support Bordeaux on a Saturday afternoon
Of course you do

Now that you bring it up, average 26,000 take Leaving Cert French (out of about 60,000 sitting their Leaving Cert (equivalent of A Levels). Its by far the most popular European language subject in Ireland.

Plenty of Irish rugby players and coaches seem to choose to go to France as well and seem to be highly valued over there.

downcow

Is there anyone can give me a potential concrete benifit of a UI to an ordinary unionist living in NI ?

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Is there anyone can give me a potential concrete benifit of a UI to an ordinary unionist living in NI ?

It isn't and can not be healthy to live in a constant state of siege - real or imagined, as I think most of us can now see it is, with the Irish language) and I think Frank's contribution shows that.

I know you will think it is patronisingly prescriptive, but is my firm belief that unionism has nothing to fear from a UI, and that would be a huge benefit. If it is any consolation I think it will be hugely beneficial for all society in northern Ireland.

I think getting off the life support machine that is the British taxpayer would be a massive benefit too as it is for a person to come off the dole and earn their own way.

murphaph

jm08 wrote: »

You need to brush up on your Irish history Rob, have you ever heard of The Wild Geese who had their own brigade in the French Army (rather like there were Irish regiments in the British Army)? You may have heard of Chateau Lynch Bages - well, the Lynch part of that family moved to France from Galway after the Battle of the Boyne! In Bordeau alone, there are 14 vineyards with Irish heritage.

During Penal times, any Irish Catholics who could afford it, sent their children to France (a catholic country) to be educated. Daniel O'Connell, was sent there for his education.

By the way, Scotland would have huge connections with France as well - remember Mary Queen of Scots was brought up in France.

Don't forget Hennessy either!

breatheme

downcow wrote: »

Is there anyone can give me a potential concrete benifit of a UI to an ordinary unionist living in NI ?

I think Belfast could thrive as Ireland's second city. Northern Ireland suffers from being "in the same jurisdiction but on a different island" or "on the same island but in a different jurisdiction".

downcow

breatheme wrote: »

I think Belfast could thrive as Ireland's second city. Northern Ireland suffers from being "in the same jurisdiction but on a different island" or "on the same island but in a different jurisdiction".

I am certainly not convinced that I would be better off financially in a UI never mind culturally

Don’t everyone jump on me here but uniting Ireland and staying in UK could work for everyone?
And that is a compromise because I don’t want Ireland united and you don’t want a connection with UK