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If a bus tries to run you off the road...

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13

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    #62
    Weepsie
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 20,456 Mod ✭✭✭✭Weepsie


    seamus wrote: »
    Irrelevant. A beep is an alert to a vehicle's presence. It confers no right of way on the beeper, nor obligation on the beepee.

    Even then, it's only supposed to be used to warn of danger I'm sure it's buried somewhere in the legislation. It isn't to to alert of a presence. I bloody well know when a bus is behind me in a lane.


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    #63
    green123
    Registered Users Posts: 1,680 ✭✭✭green123


    07Lapierre wrote: »
    Absolute rubbish! the bus driver did not have to deliberately try to push the cyclist out of the bus lane.

    I have already said the bus driver was wrong. That's obvious.

    Again using my examples of iphones and bikes getting robbed you have to take responsibility and choose a way of conducting yourself to minimise these risks.

    Cycling in a dedicated cycling only lane with no motor vehicles is safer than cycling on the road.


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    #64
    07Lapierre
    Registered Users Posts: 8,248 ✭✭✭07Lapierre


    gk5000 wrote: »
    He said he was in the bus lane because the cycle lane was packed with slower cyclists - so he was overtaking even if he and you for some reason do not accept that.
    Conditions did not allow multiple overtakes, as he was impeding the bus - being inconsiderate to other road users - just because he was in a hurry or training.
    Yes agree on the beep, but with the alert - the op should should have completed his manouver and pulled in .. to the space that he had previously ascertained was available to him.
    If there was no space available to him then he was overtaking recklessly.

    I don't agree that the cyclist was impeding the bus as the bus DID overtake? but if the cycle lane was crowded...where do you suggest the cyclist move to?


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    #65
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    gk5000 wrote: »
    He said he was in the bus lane because the cycle lane was packed with slower cyclists - so he was overtaking even if he and you for some reason do not accept that.
    Conditions did not allow multiple overtakes, as he was impeding the bus - being inconsiderate to other road users - just because he was in a hurry or training.
    Yes agree on the beep, but with the alert - the op should should have completed his manouver and pulled in .. to the space that he had previously ascertained was available to him.
    If there was no space available to him then he was overtaking recklessly.
    So by your logic, if I'm in the right hand lane of a motorway, overtaking a completely packed left-hand lane, and a guy comes flying up behind me and beeps, then I'm obliged to pull in and let him past?

    The answer is no, I am not. I am only obliged to pull in when I have finished overtaking.

    In any case, it's also kind of irrelevant, since there is no obligation to use or enter a cycle lane. So even the overtaking analogy is incorrect.

    The OP was in the leftmost traffic lane, the obligation is on the bus to wait for a suitable gap to overtake, not on the cyclist to make room.


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    #66
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 49,591 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    green123 wrote: »
    Cycling in a dedicated cycling only lane with no motor vehicles is safer than cycling on the road.
    you keep repeating this. because it's 'common sense' apparently.

    those off-road cycle lanes take you out of the motorist's mental radar, so junctions become more dangerous.
    many irish cycle paths reduce the danger to cyclists where it's least dangerous, and increase the danger where it's most dangerous.


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    #67
    07Lapierre
    Registered Users Posts: 8,248 ✭✭✭07Lapierre


    green123 wrote: »

    you have to take responsibility and choose a way of conducting yourself to minimise these risks.

    Agreed...the bus driver was never in any danger and once he manovered his bus alongside the cyclist, he should have waited until he was clear of the cyclist before pulling into the left.

    the cyclist was cycling in the bus lane...no issue there... IMO he should have been in the middle of the bus lane and he should have only moved to the left and allowed the bus to overtake when he felt it was safe to do so....come to think of it...maybe he did! maybe it was safe for the overtake, but the bloody bus driver decided to be a gob****e?


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    #68
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 49,591 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    gk5000 wrote: »
    It was reasonable for the bus driver to beep - and would have been reasonable for the OP to get our of the way of the bus.
    from the ROTR:
    "Remember, the horn does not give you the right of way."

    you are only supposed to use your horn to warn other road users of impending danger, or make them aware of your presence for safety reasons. in the above scenario, that leaves us with the irony that the bus driver was acknowledging that he himself was creating the danger for the cyclist.


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    #69
    mrcheez
    Registered Users Posts: 13,774 ✭✭✭✭mrcheez


    gk5000 has bedded down in their stated position and they're not going to change their mind in order to try to save face, despite being completely in the wrong in the discussion, so no point arguing.

    Anyway interesting topic and my original question has been answered, thanks.


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    #70
    gk5000
    Registered Users Posts: 856 ✭✭✭gk5000


    07Lapierre wrote: »
    I don't agree that the cyclist was impeding the bus as the bus DID overtake? but if the cycle lane was crowded...where do you suggest the cyclist move to?
    The cyclist was overtaking recklessly in that he should have waited until there was space to pull in before beginning his overtaking.


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    #71
    gk5000
    Registered Users Posts: 856 ✭✭✭gk5000


    seamus wrote: »
    So by your logic, if I'm in the right hand lane of a motorway, overtaking a completely packed left-hand lane, and a guy comes flying up behind me and beeps, then I'm obliged to pull in and let him past?

    The answer is no, I am not. I am only obliged to pull in when I have finished overtaking.

    In any case, it's also kind of irrelevant, since there is no obligation to use or enter a cycle lane. So even the overtaking analogy is incorrect.

    The OP was in the leftmost traffic lane, the obligation is on the bus to wait for a suitable gap to overtake, not on the cyclist to make room.
    No - I agreed previously with you on beeping that it does not confer rights - just to alert the other person.



    So you don't accept that the cyclist was overtaking recklessly in this case - though you and the OP don't seem to like to admit that that the cyclist was even doing an incorrect overtaking manouver.


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    #72
    Weepsie
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 20,456 Mod ✭✭✭✭Weepsie


    gk5000 wrote: »
    The cyclist was overtaking recklessly in that he should have waited until there was space to pull in before beginning his overtaking.
    gk5000 wrote: »
    So you don't accept that the cyclist was overtaking recklessly in this case - though you and the OP don't seem to like to admit that that the cyclist was even doing an incorrect overtaking manouver.


    Recklessly really? They said they were cycling in the bus lane, alongside the cycle lane. They never said when they they moved out from the cycle lane, or if they were ever in the cycle lane. You have assumed that position. For all you know they've been in this lane for 2-3 kms.

    The way I, and most others have read it is this. Takes bus lane as they know the cycle lane is busy. Shortly afterwards a bus catches up and starts beeping. That's what it reads more like.

    The horn (or audible warning device) is not legally allowed to be used because the driver is annoyed.


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    #73
    gk5000
    Registered Users Posts: 856 ✭✭✭gk5000


    magicbastarder wrote: »
    from the ROTR:
    "Remember, the horn does not give you the right of way."

    you are only supposed to use your horn to warn other road users of impending danger, or make them aware of your presence for safety reasons. in the above scenario, that leaves us with the irony that the bus driver was acknowledging that he himself was creating the danger for the cyclist.
    No the cyclist was overtaking (the other slower cyclists) recklessly without having ascertained a space to pull into and also impeding other road users ( the bus) - cycling without due consideration to other road users.
    So correct - the horn does not give rights but I believe it was reasonable for the driver to alert the cyclist in this case.


    In truth - the cyclist wished to allocate himself his own space and bomb along without considering anyone else.


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    #74
    CramCycle
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,933 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    MOD VOICE: @GK5000 It is clear people have engaged with your points but you seem not to want to look at any other viewpoint than your own. Going forward, any posting by you that is clearly exaggerating the OP or simply filling in blanks that fit your narrative will be met with a card.

    Just to clarify, as a MOD, with the story as given so far. The OP was allowed to use the bus lane. He was not legally required to pull into the cycle lane. The bus driver has committed several offences both in regards the RTA and the non fatal offences against a person act.

    If you feel I have missed something, drop me a message via PM, not in thread.


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    #75
    White Clover
    Registered Users Posts: 4,628 ✭✭✭White Clover


    mrcheez wrote: »
    Hmm last I checked, both bikes and buses are permitted in the bus lane

    Only taxis are "allowed" to use it, but the lane is designated for bikes/buses.

    4660898459_447760c515_m.jpg




    sounds like a good ol' case of victim blaming there sir :)

    There is a bus lane and an adjacent cycle lane.
    Does that not mean that cyclists use the cycle lane and buses use the bus lane? Or, am I complicating it?


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    #76
    Chips Lovell
    Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,269 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    Kinda. As a cyclist, you can use the cycle lane, the bus, or a regular traffic lane.


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    #77
    CramCycle
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,933 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    White Clover wrote: »
    There is a bus lane and an adjacent cycle lane.
    Does that not mean that cyclists use the cycle lane and buses use the bus lane? Or, am I complicating it?

    This sign means that the lane is a Bus and Bike lane but referred to as a Bus lane.


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    #78
    gk5000
    Registered Users Posts: 856 ✭✭✭gk5000


    Weepsie wrote: »
    Recklessly really? They said they were cycling in the bus lane, alongside the cycle lane. They never said when they they moved out from the cycle lane, or if they were ever in the cycle lane. You have assumed that position. For all you know they've been in this lane for 2-3 kms.

    The way I, and most others have read it is this. Takes bus lane as they know the cycle lane is busy. Shortly afterwards a bus catches up and starts beeping. That's what it reads more like.

    The horn (or audible warning device) is not legally allowed to be used because the driver is annoyed.
    He was overtaking other cyclists recklessly. Cyclists same as other road users must keep on the left, and then check/signal/manouver....
    He may have been in the bus lane, but he should not be if there was space on the left, and he should not leave the space on the left unless it is safe to do so. So whatever way you look at it he was being reckless and inconsiderate.

    The driver was alerting to his recklessness etc.


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    #79
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    gk5000 wrote: »
    He may have been in the bus lane, but he should not be if there was space on the left, and he should not leave the space on the left unless it is safe to do so. So whatever way you look at it he was being reckless and inconsiderate.
    But when he moved out, whenever that was, it was safe to do so.

    So whatever way you look at it, he's done nothing wrong.


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    #80
    ED E
    Registered Users Posts: 36,167 ✭✭✭✭ED E


    Dublin Bus get reports and do nothing, many cases of it documented over the last few years. They say "internally dealt with" but we've no evidence of that.

    If Dublin Bus do something dangerous please report it to the gardai and not Dublin Bus. They've had enough chances.


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    #81
    defrule
    Registered Users Posts: 190 ✭✭defrule


    Are we allowed to create a YouTube channel dedicated to posting videos of dangerous drivers? Or do we need to block out othe licence plates?


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    #82
    benjamin d
    Registered Users Posts: 921 ✭✭✭benjamin d


    gk5000 wrote: »
    He was overtaking other cyclists recklessly. Cyclists same as other road users must keep on the left, and then check/signal/manouver....
    He may have been in the bus lane, but he should not be if there was space on the left, and he should not leave the space on the left unless it is safe to do so. So whatever way you look at it he was being reckless and inconsiderate.

    The driver was alerting to his recklessness etc.

    There is absolutely nothing reckless about cycling in a bus (and cycle) lane.

    There is absolutely no obligation to use the cycle lane described.

    The cyclist has full permission in law to cycle taking the whole of the bus lane if required/desired.

    Beeping the horn does not grant right of way or oblige anyone to do anything.

    The cyclist was not "overtaking", he was "taking" the lane - not only legal but recommended when an overtake is not safe or possible for following traffic.

    For clarity, even if there is a cycle lane to the left of the cyclist, they may treat the bus lane as their "driving lane". They may also treat the general traffic lane as their driving lane, leaving two lanes free to their left (by your logic).

    Continue to troll if you like though.


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    #83
    Amirani
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,524 Mod ✭✭✭✭Amirani


    gk5000 wrote: »
    He was overtaking other cyclists recklessly. Cyclists same as other road users must keep on the left, and then check/signal/manouver....
    He may have been in the bus lane, but he should not be if there was space on the left, and he should not leave the space on the left unless it is safe to do so. So whatever way you look at it he was being reckless and inconsiderate.

    The driver was alerting to his recklessness etc.

    He had kept to the left.

    You have know idea what you're talking about. Fine if you want to give an opinion on how things should be, but what you're saying is factually incorrect. It's not like the law is grey here, it's completely clear that the cyclist was not doing anything illegal.


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    #84
    07Lapierre
    Registered Users Posts: 8,248 ✭✭✭07Lapierre


    gk5000 wrote: »
    The cyclist was overtaking recklessly in that he should have waited until there was space to pull in before beginning his overtaking.

    https://goo.gl/images/f89eao


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    #85
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 49,591 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    White Clover wrote: »
    There is a bus lane and an adjacent cycle lane.
    Does that not mean that cyclists use the cycle lane and buses use the bus lane? Or, am I complicating it?
    for example:
    https://www.google.com/maps/@53.3642957,-6.2301681,3a,75.2y,248.68h,76.17t/data=!3m5!1e1!3m3!1s1Rojbf7p1w-MNdJ_okI3gA!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo1.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3D1Rojbf7p1w-MNdJ_okI3gA%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D21.4946%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100

    the sign refers to the road lane, it has nothing to do with the off-road cycle path. so it means cyclists can use the cycle path *or* the 'bus' lane (or the adjacent lane too, for that matter, but that's outside the scope of the sign itself).


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    #86
    Fian
    Registered Users Posts: 2,192 ✭✭✭Fian


    seamus wrote: »
    A murder charge requires that the accused intended to kill or cause serious injury.

    Manslaughter arises from a death out of a deliberate act, where the act itself did not include intent to cause death or serious injury, but from which death or serious injury was a reasonably likely/foreseeable outcome and the accused was negligent in their act.

    The bus driver's defence in this regard would be that they didn't intend to hurt the cyclist, merely to scare or intimidate them.

    So clearly "attempted murder" would fail. "Attempted manslaughter", I'm not sure has ever been used as a charge, because by definition it's not really manslaughter unless someone is killed. This is why we have things like "criminal negligence", or the vehicular equivalent of dangerous driving, and death by dangerous driving.

    What's described in the OP is dangerous driving, unless he has evidence that the bus driver was actually intending to run him over.


    agree with all this but teh charge that would apply (if you could prove the driver deliberately tried to push you into the cycle lane) would be reckless endangerment. Section 13 of the non-fatal offences against the person act 1997.

    13.—(1) A person shall be guilty of an offence who intentionally or recklessly engages in conduct which creates a substantial risk of death or serious harm to another.

    (2) A person guilty of an offence under this section shall be liable—

    (a) on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding £1,500 or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 12 months or to both, or

    (b) on conviction on indictment, to a fine or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 7 years or to both.

    http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1997/act/26/section/13/enacted/en/html#sec13


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    #87
    Wishbone Ash
    Registered Users Posts: 24,995 ✭✭✭✭Wishbone Ash


    White Clover wrote: »
    There is a bus lane and an adjacent cycle lane.
    Does that not mean that cyclists use the cycle lane and buses use the bus lane? Or, am I complicating it?
    Take a busy route like Drumcondra inbound.

    At the Archbishop's Palace, there is a segregated cycle track but the bus lane signage also shows a bus and cycle (i.e. it's perfectly legal to continue cycling on the bus lane). I've had to point out these signs this to several dim bus and taxi drivers over the years.


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    #88
    tomasrojo
    Registered Users Posts: 11,768 ✭✭✭✭tomasrojo


    Yeah, the only bus lanes you're not allowed to use are the bus contraflows. Those signs don't have a bike on them

    I remember there was a period where Dublin City Council was putting up standard bus lane signs, but putting a small blue patch over the cyclist symbol, trying to create an extra-legal no-cycling bus lane. Monument put paid to that, IIRC.


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    #89
    gk5000
    Registered Users Posts: 856 ✭✭✭gk5000


    mrcheez wrote: »
    gk5000 has bedded down in their stated position and they're not going to change their mind in order to try to save face, despite being completely in the wrong in the discussion, so no point arguing.

    Anyway interesting topic and my original question has been answered, thanks.
    GK5000 is a commuting cyclist - 20km daily so is not a "they". There is no point in you arguing further because you are completely in the wrong.

    Unfortunately you have loads of company - or all the sport cyclists - who also seem to be unaware of the cycling laws - and flame anyone who dares state it.

    The law states http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2012/si/332/made/en/print

    47. (1) A pedal cyclist shall not drive a pedal cycle on a roadway in such a manner as to result in more than 2 pedal cyclists driving abreast, save when overtaking other pedal cyclists, and then only if to do so will not endanger, inconvenience or obstruct other traffic or pedestrians.

    There are further laws on keeping left, and checking before you overtake as per common sense and normal traffic laws for cars and bikes.

    I personally would give the bus driver the full benefit of the doubt.

    Edit to add - Given the above and that you were not following the rules of the road it is fair to say you were cycling recklessly - reckless to yourself, the cyclists to your left, the bus and passengers...


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    #90
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Adhering to the keeping left one to the letter will get you in serious bother on some roads. Taking the lane is the only way to keep safe in many situations. RSA recommend .75m from the left for cyclists and in a lot of cases thats fine in others though you really do need to ride in the middle of the road to stop idiots from being idiots and keep yourself safe.


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    #91
    tomasrojo
    Registered Users Posts: 11,768 ✭✭✭✭tomasrojo


    gk5000 wrote: »
    GK5000 is a commuting cyclist - 20km daily so is not a "they".

    Singular they has been in use since the 1300s.

    The law you quote is about not cycling two abreast if it inconveniences other road users. What's it got to do with bus lanes?


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