Cork-Dublin-Belfast - High speed rail

Bray Head

cgcsb wrote: »

The current Dublin-Belfast service would have much more customers if it was faster, more frequent, and you could get to either end before 9am.

You could say that about any public transport route in the world.

Would a high-speed Cork-Belfast route jump a cost-benefit hurdle? Not a hope. There simply aren't enough potential passengers at any speed.

cgcsb

Bray Head wrote: »

You could say that about any public transport route in the world.

well yes you could with proper cost benefit analysis.

Bray Head wrote: »

Would a high-speed Cork-Belfast route jump a cost-benefit hurdle? Not a hope. There simply aren't enough potential passengers at any speed.

It needn't, the route can be upgraded in sections over years/decades to accommodate high speed (medium speed if you will, depending on what definition you use). Cost benefit analysis are based on 30 year scenarios, not current ridership. Certainly for the Belfast Route we'd have to wait until the early-mid 2020s to get an somewhat accurate picture of what to expect: Brexit, no brexit, special status or hard border, how much of an economic decline NI faces or indeed if Northern Ireland will continue to exist.

Bray Head

cgcsb wrote: »

It needn't, the route can be upgraded in sections over years/decades to accommodate high speed (medium speed if you will, depending on what definition you use). 

What you are suggesting for example is a 50km chunk of new high-speed rail so trains can whizz through County Louth before they trundle in following a commuter train from Drogheda.

This small saving wouldn't generate many new passengers and would involve lots of expensive rolling stock that travels at maximum speed for very small amounts of time.

cgcsb

Bray Head wrote: »

What you are suggesting for example is a 50km chunk of new high-speed rail so trains can whizz through County Louth before they trundle in following a commuter train from Drogheda.

No I'm not, the existing alignment is fine for most parts. The current delays happen anyway and they can be ironed out going forward.

Bray Head wrote: »

This small saving wouldn't generate many new passengers and would involve lots of expensive rolling stock that travels at maximum speed for very small amounts of time.

The enterprise stock is being replaced anyway, might as well buy a hybrid diesel/electric unit capable of 250km/hr

In 2007 Dublin Cork was upgraded to hourly service, this increased ridership 33% despite the onset of economic recession. Frequency gets bums on seats as does speed.

Marcusm

cgcsb wrote: »

There'd be very few End to End Cork-Belfast trips in the same way that there'll be very few end to end Swords to Sandyford trips on Metrolink, the point is connectivity and facilitating seamless interchange.
.

That’s not a very valid comparison; there are limie d enough Cork-Dublin and Dublin-Belfast passengers. By contrast, while few might go from Adwords all the way to a sandyford, the intermediate stops are through the most densely populated part of the country.

I’m not anti-rail but I have to say that, while some quasi-white elephants have been recently sanctioned (i’ll Posit M17/18 and be screamed at), this level of investment could never be justified for inter urban transport benefiting a. Small number.

Bray Head

Marcusm wrote: »

cgcsb wrote: »

There'd be very few End to End Cork-Belfast trips in the same way that there'll be very few end to end Swords to Sandyford trips on Metrolink, the point is connectivity and facilitating seamless interchange.
.

That’s not a very valid comparison; there are limie d enough Cork-Dublin and Dublin-Belfast passengers.  By contrast, while few might go from Adwords all the way to a sandyford, the intermediate stops are through the most densely populated part of the country.

Indeed. It's a terrible analogy. Luas is a slow, frequent-stopping service that goes through a densely populated area. Belfast-Cork-Dublin would not go near any major urban centres worth stopping a high-speed service for.


Paris-Brussels Thalys does not stop ten times on the trip.

blanch152

Bray Head wrote: »

Indeed. It's a terrible analogy. Luas is a slow, frequent-stopping service that goes through a densely populated area. Belfast-Cork-Dublin would not go near any major urban centres worth stopping a high-speed service for.


Paris-Brussels Thalys does not stop ten times on the trip.

Belfast is no Brussels and Cork is certainly no Paris.

Consonata

blanch152 wrote: »

Belfast is no Brussels and Cork is certainly no Paris.

Sure, but if you look at where High speed rail has been built elsewhere in the world. Portugal, for example, has a HSR line between Lisbon and Coimbra.

Now lets compare the statistics here;

Populations:
Dublin - 527,612
Lisbon - 506,892

Belfast - 280,211
Coimbra - 105,842


Distance:
Dublin > Belfast = 165km
Lisbon > Coimbra = 200km


So we are arguing against building a shorter HSR between 2 larger population centres because our population clearly can't support a HSR line :rolleyes:

Some people literally are against everything for the purpose of being against it.

Stephen15

Consonata wrote: »

Sure, but if you look at where High speed rail has been built elsewhere in the world. Portugal, for example, has a HSR line between Lisbon and Coimbra.

Now lets compare the statistics here;

Populations:
Dublin - 527,612
Lisbon - 506,892

Belfast - 280,211
Coimbra - 105,842


Distance:
Dublin > Belfast = 165km
Lisbon > Coimbra = 200km


So we are arguing against building a shorter HSR between 2 larger population centres because our population clearly can't support a HSR line :rolleyes:

Some people literally are against everything for the purpose of being against it.

Bad comparison. My guess would that line you talk about is part of a greater network on the Iberian peninsula rather than just a single line. I would also guess that is just a section of high speed and trains continue on towards Porto which has 240,000 population.

I don't think anyone's against HSR but it's not critical right now compared to other more important projects such as Metrolink, Bus Connects and DART underground unless your someone like Colm McCarthy who appears to be against all public transport investment. Remember Lisbon already has a Metro.

Frostybrew

Consonata wrote: »

Sure, but if you look at where High speed rail has been built elsewhere in the world. Portugal, for example, has a HSR line between Lisbon and Coimbra.

Now lets compare the statistics here;

Populations:
Dublin - 527,612
Lisbon - 506,892

Belfast - 280,211
Coimbra - 105,842


Distance:
Dublin > Belfast = 165km
Lisbon > Coimbra = 200km


So we are arguing against building a shorter HSR between 2 larger population centres because our population clearly can't support a HSR line :rolleyes:

Some people literally are against everything for the purpose of being against it.

Much as I'd love to have HSR between our major cities, the example above is a very poor one.

First of all the population figures are way off. Lisbon has a metro population of 2.8 million which is more than the metro populations of Dublin, Cork, and Belfast combined.

Secondly, Coimbra is an intermediate stop on the Lisbon to Porto line. Porto has a Metro population of 1.8 million.

Not to mention connections to substantial Spanish cities to the North such as Vigo.

I'm sure there is a valid case for some form of HSR in Ireland. Stronger arguments are needed than the above example.

bk

Also the lines in Portugal aren't really considered to be High Speed Rail.

As I mentioned HSR is usually considered to be 250km/h or greater and usually on a new line. Portugal's service is 220km/h titling trains on existing tracks. Very good of course, much better then us and something like that would be welcome here. However it isn't really HSR, more like medium speed rail.

The Portugese government had plans ten years ago to build 3 true HSR lines, including a 350km/h line between Lisbon and Madrid, but then the recession hit and they were all cancelled.

Carawaystick

cgcsb wrote: »

The enterprise stock is being replaced anyway, might as well buy a hybrid diesel/electric unit capable of 250km/hr

The enterprise carriages are the same as the eurostar carriages bar the bogie gauge. They are capable of 250kmh

Front and back locos are not allowed in ireland by the railway safety people, which would boost acceleration and speed, and we don't have intercity catenaries

Bray Head

Lisbon Coimbra is 1h 43m for 203km. So 117 kmh.

This is not a high speed service. In fact it is half the speed of a high-speed service.

Dublin Cork is 2h 20m for 257km. So 110 kmh. Also not a high-speed service.

marno21

In terms of the potential electrification of the rail network outside the Greater Dublin Area, Project Ireland 2040 commits toward an evaluation of high-speed rail on the main inter-urban network against improvements to existing line speeds and that evaluation will be commenced next year.

This was to start in Feb 2019. Delayed til next year.

Stephen15

Eleanor Wide Grocery wrote: »

Could Hyperloop running at 1,500 km/h not be cheaper (certainly faster), essentially most of it is a just an aul vacum tube.

Musk calculated just $6bn for a line from SF to LA, bargain.

Musk is a complete spoofer

4068ac1elhodqr

Stephen15 wrote: »

Musk is a complete spoofer

Did he spoof his net worth of $19.2 billion, and couple of degrees. Reject a Ph.D. in applied physics and material sciences (Stanford), for the unknown risk of enterprise.

Are Falcon Heavy, SpaceX and Telsa just napkin sketches that never progessed?

These and other projects such as SolarCity revolve around his vision to change the world and humanity. His goals include reducing global warming through sustainable energy production and consumption, and reducing the risk of human extinction by establishing a human colony on Mars.

This week he's on the East Coast for Falcon Heavy’s (Raptor engine) third launch, and dropped by the company’s Florida Starship campus and recorded a small acceptance speech for his 2019 Stephen Hawking Medal.
Said he'd spend tommorow (48th birthday) fixing logistical issues instead of partying.

Yes, the: Founder, CEO, Lead Designer of SpaceX / CEO, Product Architect of Tesla, Inc. / Co-founder, CEO of Neuralink / Founder of The Boring (Hyperloop) Company / Co-founder of Zip2 / Founder of X.com (now PayPal) / Co-founder of OpenAI / Chairman of SolarCity sure sounds like a right spoofing messer alright!

loyatemu

Musk's latest iteration of Hyperloop is just a car driving in a tube.

CatInABox

Yeah, his Boring company tunnels are overwhelmingly disappointing. His premise is that smaller tunnels allow for faster and cheaper building, but they don't scale at all. In order to move the same volume of people as a proper rail based metro, then they'd need multiple tunnels, which isn't cheaper at all. So far, they've also hand-waved away all the safety requirements that were developed over the history of tunnels, both rail and car based, and until they actually engage on that, they won't be commissioned to build anything.

Don't get me wrong, Musks work with PayPal, Telsa, and SpaceX is incredible, but the last few years it seems like he's started to believe his own hype, and has fired or driven away anyone that could pull him back down to earth.

Carawaystick

Eleanor Wide Grocery wrote: »

Did he spoof his net worth of $19.2 billion, and couple of degrees. Reject a Ph.D. in applied physics and material sciences (Stanford), for the unknown risk of enterprise.

Are Falcon Heavy, SpaceX and Telsa just napkin sketches that never progessed?

These and other projects such as SolarCity revolve around his vision to change the world and humanity. His goals include reducing global warming through sustainable energy production and consumption, and reducing the risk of human extinction by establishing a human colony on Mars.

This week he's on the East Coast for Falcon Heavy’s (Raptor engine) third launch, and dropped by the company’s Florida Starship campus and recorded a small acceptance speech for his 2019 Stephen Hawking Medal.
Said he'd spend tommorow (48th birthday) fixing logistical issues instead of partying.

Yes, the: Founder, CEO, Lead Designer of SpaceX / CEO, Product Architect of Tesla, Inc. / Co-founder, CEO of Neuralink / Founder of The Boring (Hyperloop) Company / Co-founder of Zip2 / Founder of X.com (now PayPal) / Co-founder of OpenAI / Chairman of SolarCity sure sounds like a right spoofing messer alright!

How did his submarine get on recuing those Thai soccer players?
Did he ever back up his wild libelous claim that the man who actually rescued them was a paedo? or was he full of sh1te?

how many fines has he paid the SEC, for talking sh1te?