John Mc Cain

TomOnBoard

For me, Mc Cain's biggest failure was allowing Sarah Palin onto the Presidential Election ticket. That lack of judgement made it OK to put a populist loony into the White House, and look where that got us.

He was also a warmonger, although probably not as much a thug as Cheney and Rumsfeld were/are..

Pa ElGrande

KevinCavan wrote: »

It was only when he died I found out a bit about his background. ****ing hell, how was this guy not elected president, he sounds like John Rambo rather than John McCain!

Rambo even though he as a work of fiction may well have been right about the left behind POWs. See McCain and the POW Cover-Up.

It was the Wall street bank bailout in 2008 that cost most McCain votes. When the bailout was proposed the phones started ringing like never before in the US congress members offices from constituents and the plan was initially rejected.

The bailout plan was announced by the Bush administration last week. In the end, Republican House members voted against it by a more than 2-to-1 margin. A majority of Democrats voted in favour.

Rep. Barney Frank, a Massachusetts Democrat who helped craft the bill in hours of negotiations with leading lawmakers, said the next step could hinge on the economic fallout from the bill's failure.

source

McCain takes hit from bailout collapse

2 years later

McCain Semi-Recants Bailout Support; Hopes Arizonans Have Short-Term Memory Loss

You may have heard that 2008 Republican Party presidential nominee John McCain is facing the challenge of his life in the GOP primary for his long-safe Senate seat. I would bet half my bank account that talk radio shouter J.D. Hayworth won't get within 10 percentage points of the guy, but the race is producing some classic McCain equivocation, such as this two-step on his support for the September/October 2008 bailouts:


source

Zebra3

One for the war mongerers.

Pay tribute to your hero.

https://mobile.twitter.com/PaulGottinger/status/1033603853776814080

TomOnBoard

Zebra3 wrote: »

One for the war mongerers.

Pay tribute to your hero.

https://mobile.twitter.com/PaulGottinger/status/1033603853776814080

Utter genocide!

neirbloom

Mc Cain was more old school Republican as opposed to what we see a lot of in American politics today which he inadvertently made worse in the 08 election with the election of Palin and the rest of the Right wing nuts to give them an even greater platform than they already had before.

jmayo

JohnFalstaff wrote: »

RIP. McCain had many admirable qualities and served his country with much distinction and bravery.

But his political legacy will be forever tainted by bringing Sarah Palin on board when he ran for the Presidency. He opened the door to the s***storm we've been enduring in US politics since.

After his failure against Bush, he was trying to attract the looney right wing religious nutjobs so co-opted her onto the ticket.
And it kinda worked.

He also had to force her to make concession speech AFAIK.
And he was magnanimous in his concession speech to Obama.

Deleted User wrote: »

Such an American mindset, I've no idea how it creeped into Ireland. You're saying McCain was good because he was killing Vietnamese people, and Trump is bad because he didn't?

The only Vietnam vet I respect comes back here for months every year practicing medicine for free. He has an enormous amount of guilt about what happened here and continually tries to help the country. McCain et al? "Lets' bomb more countries."

Actually he really helped rebuild diplomatic relations with Vietnam.
Which the Vietnamese believe, as opposed to what you think, has helped their country.

And there is a monument at the site where he was captured in 1967 outside Hanoi.

McCain returned to Vietnam a number of times, and has even visited the Hanoi Hilton. He told C-SPAN it isn't difficult for him to go back.

"There is no reason for me to hold a grudge or anger," McCain said. "There's certainly some individual guards who were very cruel and inflicted a lot of pain on me and others but there's certainly no sense in me hating the Vietnamese ... I hold no ill will toward them."

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/john-mccain-hanoi-hilton-prisoner-of-war-truc-bach-lake/

Zebra3 wrote: »

So far in the media there’s been plenty of rich white Americans giving their views on McCain.

Has anyone seen any interviews with any Vietnamese people?

Maybe if you took that anti American pro whatever head out of your ass for a while you might actually notice the Vietnamese appear to have had a lot of time for him.


Maybe they just recognise people of substance and principle, even if they might not agree with them.

Hell they have opened a book of condolences for him and the foreign minister of the country has signed it.

And why the fook do you have to drag race into this. :rolleyes:

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-mccain-vietnam/vietnam-says-john-mccain-helped-heal-the-wounds-of-war-idUSKCN1LC0P8

One of his former jailers has said he respected him and is sorry he has died.

https://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/vietnam-pays-respects-john-mccain-tributes-flowers-57420652

Zebra3

But we can’t ask those he murdered their opinions.

Always apologists out there for American terrorism.

twinytwo

Deleted User wrote: »

Best what ever? I never said that. Unfortunately, your wall of text follows that theme all the way through.


McCain was in Vietnam. Trump wasn't. I don't care for the reasons because I am Irish and I don't fetishise war or have any respect for soldiers. Nor do most Irish people I know. "Draft dodging" means nothing to me and is more of a plus than a minus, regardless of the reasons. America's homeland was not under attack and Vietnam was not like WWII.

You respect soldiers, and that's something that's been imported from America. That was my point. You also seem to give him a pass on the bad things he's done because you respect how tough he is. I don't agree with that or even understand the logic.

The rest of your post is glorifying strongmen and putting words in my mouth so I won't even quote it or respond to it. I don't care about McCain enough.

If it wasnt for soldiers, you would be living under the union jack.

Soldiers arnt usually wanted by the general public until they are needed.

But its easy to say you dont respect them when you been lucky enough to live a fairly cushy life in ireland

Odhinn

Deleted User wrote: »

Best what ever? I never said that. Unfortunately, your wall of text follows that theme all the way through.


McCain was in Vietnam. Trump wasn't. I don't care for the reasons because I am Irish and I don't fetishise war or have any respect for soldiers. Nor do most Irish people I know. "Draft dodging" means nothing to me and is more of a plus than a minus, regardless of the reasons. America's homeland was not under attack and Vietnam was not like WWII.

You respect soldiers, and that's something that's been imported from America. That was my point. You also seem to give him a pass on the bad things he's done because you respect how tough he is. I don't agree with that or even understand the logic.

The rest of your post is glorifying strongmen and putting words in my mouth so I won't even quote it or respond to it. I don't care about McCain enough.

???

Galwayguy35

Zebra3 wrote: »

But we can’t ask those he murdered their opinions.

Always apologists out there for American terrorism.

You hard left lads are gas.

No wonder nobody votes for ye.

Junkyard Tom

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

You hard left lads are gas.

Being anti mass-murder is 'hard left'?

What a truly dumb way to think.

Galwayguy35

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Being anti mass-murder is 'hard left'?

What a truly dumb way to think.

Interesting you don't have any issue the words American terrorism or think that's silly at all.

Looks like we have another one here.

Junkyard Tom

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

Interesting you don't have any issue the words American terrorism or think that's silly at all.

Bombing civilian peasants isn't terrorism? Go back to your Tom Clancy books.

Junkyard Tom

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hr37eE0nO8

Pa ElGrande

https://twitter.com/LockheedMartin/status/1033717876723732480

https://twitter.com/Raytheon/status/1033909468810162177


War-profiteers praising a war-monger, who’d a thunk it.

the_syco

Deleted User wrote: »

McCain was in Vietnam. Trump wasn't. I don't care for the reasons because I am Irish and I don't fetishise war or have any respect for soldiers. Nor do most Irish people I know. "Draft dodging" means nothing to me and is more of a plus than a minus, regardless of the reasons. America's homeland was not under attack and Vietnam was not like WWII.

He played football, tennis, squash and golf, but seemingly "bone spurs" ensured he couldn't be drafted. And then turning around and calling someone who did goto Vietnam (and spent time as a POW) a coward because he was shot down and captured? Trump did very well out of not being drafted.

Zebra3

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

You hard left lads are gas.

No wonder nobody votes for ye.

I forgot, it’s ok to bomb yellow or brown skinned people but unacceptable to criticise rich white American people for committing murder.

Beefy78

It's rare to see someone be in a position to put out a final statement to the World like the one his daughter has released today. Whatever we think of the man and his politics he has certainly gone out gracefully.

https://twitter.com/meghanmccain/status/1034146583615397889?s=21

Irish Praetorian

Zebra3 wrote: »

I forgot, it’s ok to bomb yellow or brown skinned people but unacceptable to criticise rich white American people for committing murder.

Only when you can't muster up anything beyond anaemic cliches like the murdering soldier or no blood for oil.

I mean seriously, how hard is it to make a criticism of the man without verging into the realms of hyperbole and hysteria? Look at the two below and see which reads better;

'He took part in a brutal war the US should not have fought and held dangerously naive ideas about foreign policy that caused further conflict in later years'

Or

'He was a murderous evil villain who liked to feast on the corpses of those he killed and make innocent people fight to the death in a bizzare gladiatorial rage, oh and the US was a murderous actor in the Philippines, its nothing to do with the topic but its good to remind ourselves because I was everyone to be assured that I am the most morally outraged'

It's really not difficult people...

Manic Moran

Zebra3 wrote: »

So far in the media there’s been plenty of rich white Americans giving their views on McCain.

Has anyone seen any interviews with any Vietnamese people?

There are a few...

https://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/vietnam-pays-respects-john-mccain-tributes-flowers-57420652

Sen. John McCain's Vietnamese jailer said he respected his former inmate and felt sad about his death, as others in Vietnam paid their respects to the former U.S. Navy pilot who became a prisoner of war and later was instrumental in bringing the wartime foes together.


https://www.cbsnews.com/news/john-mccain-vietnam-tributes-us-embassy-hanoi-memorial-pow-north-vietnamese/

HANOI, Vietnam -- People in Vietnam are paying their respects to U.S. Sen. John McCain who was held as prisoner of war in Vietnam and later was instrumental in bringing the wartime foes together. McCain died of brain cancer Saturday in his home state of Arizona, which he had served over six terms in the U.S. Senate.

People paid tribute to McCain at the U.S. Embassy in Hanoi on Monday and also at the monument built where he parachuted from his Navy Skyhawk dive bomber in October 1967 and was taken prisoner of war. He was held more than five years at the infamous "Hanoi Hilton" prison.

https://www.12news.com/article/news/local/valley/vietnamese-community-honors-mccain-with-candlelight-vigil-in-phoenix/75-587825859


PHOENIX — As people across the country mourned the passing of Arizona Senator John McCain, the Vietnamese community in Phoenix honored his life with a candlelight vigil Sunday night.

Maybe it's just me, but if the people he bombed have a monument to him, I suspect they have done a pretty reasonable job of moving on and looking at what he did afterwards. https://cdn.winknews.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/vietnam.jpeg

pleas advice

Beefy78 wrote: »

It's rare to see someone be in a position to put out a final statement to the World like the one his daughter has released today. Whatever we think of the man and his politics he has certainly gone out gracefully.

https://twitter.com/meghanmccain/status/1034146583615397889?s=21

Don't know if it was on this thread or on reddit i saw it mentioned that he didn't want Trump at his funeral, but Obama and W Bush are meant to be giving eulogies, but theres a few digs to the present administration in there all right

jmayo

Zebra3 wrote: »

But we can’t ask those he murdered their opinions.

Always apologists out there for American terrorism.

Ah jaysus you are a parody.

Back in the70s, 80s people like you were spouting how great the Soviet Union was for the working man, only for it to crumble because it was a mess and the truth to come out how it was really cr** for the working man.
Of course America was always evil. So was Britain.

Hell so was/is the entire Western world in your opinion.
The same western world that gave you, and has always given people like you, the opportunity and freedom to critise, something the countries you will laud would never afford you.

Yes the US have stuck their noses into a hell of a lot of countries and majorily screwed up a good few, particularly in this century.

But the thing is it up until the 90s it was massive chess game being played out by USSR and USA with occasional input from the Chinese ala South East Asia and Korea.

And for all the US faults in those days, their brand of power was a lot more palatable for a lot of people in comparison to that dispensed by the cold war adversaries.
People should never ever forget that we have a modern free Europe due to the US.
The alternatives were a Nazi or Stalinist Europe.


You see the Vietnam/South East Asia war as just being evil warmongering US against the poor natives, but you completely disregard the Chinese and Soviets involvement.
And you completely disregard the regimes that the USA were fighting.
They weren't exactly always that nice either.

Of course the ones that as always gets the sh**ty end of the stick are the ones at the bottom.

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Being anti mass-murder is 'hard left'?

What a truly dumb way to think.

No, but the ones who usually utter cr** about American terrorists are the left.
The very same ones that 30/40 years ago were lauding the Soviet Union and the eastern bloc as some workers utopia.

Now of course the same crew are usually spouting shyte about the evil white man, are almost always defending islam and the islamic world.

Zebra3 wrote: »

I forgot, it’s ok to bomb yellow or brown skinned people but unacceptable to criticise rich white American people for committing murder.

And what was I saying about talking the usual now par for the course shyte about white man's guilt. :rolleyes:

And in case it has never crossed your mind there is the little fact that the Chinese were heavily backing the North Koreans, Khmer Rouge and Vietnamese to a degree.
All of which killed other as you would term them yellow people. :rolleyes:

You now can't help yourself, but drag race into these discussions at every opportunity.

the_syco

Seems John had planned to flip the bird to Trump on his way into the ground; https://secondnexus.com/news/john-mccain-vladimir-kara-murza-pallbearer/?utm_content=inf_4_1164_2

Pa ElGrande

Lies Cannot Hide the Dark Side of Reality

Gary D. Barnett

So who was John McCain? Most know the McCain portrayed by the media; that of a war hero shot down in Vietnam only to become a POW in an unpopular war. In fact, that war was nothing more than brutal murder affected against innocent people. Most of his life revolved around this persona, that of his suggested misfortune, of a hero protecting his country, and of bravery in the face of torture and solitary confinement. This false picture of McCain put him in the limelight, helped him in business, and propelled him into a powerful political position for life. None of this was warranted. As I see it, he was a maniacal warmonger with an ego to match

<snip>

McCain was a POW, and deserved that fate in my opinion. Unlike those young men forced into war by conscription, McCain voluntarily chose to murder the Vietnamese from high in the skies where he was not forced to see the heinous nature of his actions. For his efforts, he was shot down, captured, and held as a prisoner. There is much speculation about his time during capture, but we may never know the truth concerning all that happened while a prisoner. But what happened after his release is much more telling than his so-called heroism as a POW.

There is an enormous amount of evidence that McCain used his political power to hide the fact that prisoners held in Vietnam after the war did not exist. In other words, he purposely abandoned them. He gutted legislation meant to help prisoners, and he made ineffective the “Truth Bill” which would have made transparent the plight of missing prisoners of war. He did this by drafting his own bill, the “McCain Bill,” which created a bureaucratic wall that blocked most documents that could have been released. Why would he do this? What was he attempting to hide? What was his motive?

John McCain had a checkered history of corruption, lying, and scandal. Regardless of his transgressions, he seemed always to escape mostly unscathed. Consider the Savings and Loan debacle, and its consequences for so many. McCain was the most blameworthy of the Keating Five in my opinion, but he used his POW status and the media to not only get out of harms way, but to save his political career in the process. These are not the actions of an honest man.

<snip>

John McCain was no war hero, he was a war criminal. He was never a savior of “American values”, nor was he compassionate in life or politics. He had a violent temper, he was unmoving in his taste for killing, and he was corrupt. If the timing of this criticism seems harsh, so be it. The truth should not be foreign to us, especially now.

Lauding an unscrupulous politician upon his death, even as a simple matter of “respect,” is a deceitful practice clouded in lies. Without truth, more deceit follows, and more lies become evident. Honesty is the only proper way forward, so all should know the real John McCain.

John McCain and the Warrior Spirit in American Foreign Policy

Justin Raimondo

In his person, and his public pronouncements, McCain was the perfect representative of the nascent imperial class: born in the Panama Canal zone, the son of an Admiral, he was almost fated to become what he did indeed become – the archetypal Praetorian, the veritable embodiment of America’s post-World War II empire. A paladin of the cold war while it lasted, and a tireless advocate of post-cold war hegemonism, his favorite phrase was “boots on the ground,” and he championed this as a policy option for virtually every foreign policy problem confronted by US policymakers.

<snip>

McCain’s legacy is that of a Republican party that no longer exists: a recent poll taken shortly before his passing shows he’s loved by the Democrats and disdained by the Republicans. This probably reflects, at least in part, a sea change in the way both parties approach the foreign policy issue: McCain’s rabid interventionism is much closer to the Democrats’ anti-Russian pro-NATO Euro-centric expansionism than the increasingly “mind your own business” attitude of the typical Republican voter.

<snip>

McCain, more than any Republican politician since Teddy Roosevelt, represented the warrior spirit that has, at times, animated American foreign policy, and still dominates the thinking of our political class. Trump’s victory over McCain is that he managed to appropriate the warrior style while annulling it as a policy.

No politician of equal stature and consistency is apt to take McCain’s place as the country’s leading warmonger for the simple reason that this kind of demagoguery has mostly gone out of style – except in the Green Rooms of the Sunday talk shows, where the war god reigns supreme. Poor Lindsey Graham is going to be mighty isolated in the coming days, a lone laptop bombardier calling for wars from the Middle East to the Far East without the company of his co-pilot. The voters and ordinary people in general don’t like this constant talk of war, be it “humanitarian” or otherwise, because they know the people agitating for it won’t be sending their children to die on any battlefield.

There is no doubt there was a public relations agency behind the funeral arrangements and media coverage of McCain death, you may have noted that his impending death was announced to the media to prepare the media for maximum coverage and get all the pundits lined up for the weekend shows. That does not happen without a PR firm.

Atoms for Peace

KevinCavan wrote: »

It was only when he died I found out a bit about his background. ****ing hell, how was this guy not elected president, he sounds like John Rambo rather than John McCain!

He had that looper from alaska as his running mate.

Atoms for Peace

Sal Butamol wrote: »

If McCain had died around the Sarah Palin debacle and his "that guy" remarks about Obama the left would have reacted with glee and **** on him from a height.

Few years later and because he disliked Trump, the left are fawning over him.


Really goes to show the anti-war movement in the U.S. which was traditionally left-leaning is well and truly dead and buried.

The Democrats are just as bad as the GOP these days for supporting war mongering criminals.

Just like the Bushes, Clinton and Obama
Just another talking head telling lies on teleprompters
If you don't believe the theory, then argue with this logic
Why did Reagan and Obama both go after Qaddafi
We invaded sovereign soil, going after oil
Taking countries is a hobby paid for by the oil lobby
Same as in Iraq, and Afghanistan
-Killer Mike

Zebra3

https://twitter.com/robn1980/status/1035596037703053313?s=21

A self-confessed mass murderer.

A hero to the fascists on here.

Would he be a hero if he had murdered their families?

SHOVELLER

Very diverse crowd paying tribute here last night at the rotunda. Every age, every demographic and race represented. Got down at the end as there was no way I was queuing for hours in that heat! Only half hour queue to get in.

McCain was the perfect antidote to who is in the White House now and the crowds reflected that. He publicly acknowledged his mistakes over the years and this will prevail.

RIP John McCain

AudreyHepburn

If I were American then I’d be a Democrat through and through but I have nothing but respect for John McCain as a man. To have come through what he did and to be able to dedicate ones life so completely to the service of your country is remarkable.

RIP John McCain

JohnMc1

the_syco wrote: »

He played football, tennis, squash and golf, but seemingly "bone spurs" ensured he couldn't be drafted. And then turning around and calling someone who did goto Vietnam (and spent time as a POW) a coward because he was shot down and captured? Trump did very well out of not being drafted.

If Military service really mattered to Democrats than Obama and Bill Clinton would have never been President.

Pa ElGrande

In his bestselling 1999 autobiography, Faith of My Fathers, McCain says he felt bad throughout his captivity because he knew he was being treated more leniently than his fellow POWs, owing to his high-ranking father and thus his propaganda value. Other prisoners at Hoa Lo say his captors considered him a prize catch and called him the "Crown Prince," something McCain acknowledges in the book.

Also in this memoir, McCain expresses guilt at having broken under torture and given the confession. "I felt faithless and couldn't control my despair," he writes, revealing that he made two "feeble" attempts at suicide. (In later years, he said he tried to hang himself with his shirt and guards intervened.) Tellingly, he says he lived in "dread" that his father would find out about the confession. "I still wince," he writes, "when I recall wondering if my father had heard of my disgrace."

He says that when he returned home, he told his father about the confession, but "never discussed it at length"—and the Admiral, who died in 1981, didn't indicate he had heard anything about it before. But he had. In the 1999 memoir, the Senator writes: "I only recently learned that the tape... had been broadcast outside the prison and had come to the attention of my father. "

In 1996, McCain roughly pushed aside a group of POW family members, including a mother in a wheelchair, who had waited outside a hearing room to appeal to him. Is McCain haunted by these memories? Does he suppress POW information because its surfacing would rekindle his feelings of shame? On this subject, all I have are questions.

Many stories have been written about McCain's explosive temper, so volcanic that colleagues are loathe to speak openly about it. One veteran Congressman who has observed him over the years asked for confidentiality and made this brief comment: "This is a man not at peace with himself."

He was certainly far from calm on the Senate POW committee. He browbeat expert witnesses. who came with information about unreturned POWs. Family members who have personally faced McCain and pressed him to end the secrecy also have been treated to his legendary temper. He has screamed at them, insulted them, brought women to tears. Mostly his responses to them have been versions of: How dare you question my patriotism? In 1996, he roughly pushed aside a group of POW family members, including a mother in a wheelchair, who had waited outside a hearing room to appeal to him.


But even without answers to what may be hidden in the recesses of McCain's mind, one thing about the POW story is clear: If American prisoners were dishonored by being written off and left to die, that's something the American public ought to know.

source

They wanted a statement saying that I as sorry for the crimes that I had committed against North Vietnamese people and that I was grateful for the treatment that I had received from them. This was the paradox — so many guys were so mistreated to get them to say they were grateful. But this is the Communist way.

I held out for four days. Finally, I reached the lowest point of my 5 1/2 years in North Vietnam. I was at the point of suicide because I saw that I was reaching the end of my rope. I said, O.K. I’ll write for them.

They took me up into one of the interrogation rooms, and for the next 12 hours we wrote and rewrote. The North Vietnamese interrogator, who was pretty stupid, wrote the final confession, and I signed it. It was in their language, and spoke about black crimes and other generalities. It was unacceptable to them. But I felt just terrible about it. I kept saying to myself “Oh, God, I really didn’t have a choice.” I had learned what we all learned over there.” Every man has his breaking point. I had reached mine.

source

Not even his own stories of his capture and torture are consistent. The Pentagon has a copy of the confession but refuses to release it thanks to John McCain’s self-serving legislation.

CruelCoin

Atoms for Peace wrote: »

He had that looper from alaska as his running mate.

He mentioned in a book recently released how he regretted taking her on, and then she was told to stay away from the funeral.

2 Scoops

rossie1977 wrote: »

It's incredible how far to the right the Republicans has shifted in a decade.

According to Pew Research, the opposite is true. It's the Liberal Democrats who've become more extreme in the past 20 years.

http://assets.pewresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/5/2017/10/05162647/10-05-2017-Political-landscape-release.pdf

nacho libre

Irish Praetorian wrote: »

That sarcastic post was exactly the kind of lazy vision I was talking about. From that post one might ascribe the clapped out narrative of the US being in Vietnam for the purpose of just being evil for evil's sake. I would also disagree with your characterization of my view on history; my posts demonstrate quite amply I've no problem criticising US conduct and policy throughout history - simply refuse the simplistic 'good v bad' vision others proffer.

i wonder if a thread was opened up about Russia, with the, as you put it, simplistic good v evil narrative proffered by others, would you go on similar crusade to show the situation was a bit more nuanced than depicted by some right-wing posters denouncing Russia as evil incarnate.

Taytoland

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Being anti mass-murder is 'hard left'?

What a truly dumb way to think.

Interesting you don't have any issue the words American terrorism or think that's silly at all.

Looks like we have another one here.

Or the IRA which he drools over.