98% of the abuses were within the community

riemann

It is a very apt observation especially in today's cimlate.

The issue of child abuse is rampant and far from exclusive to the church.

It's sad to see all the selfless work offered by many generations of religious institutions completely ignored, as currently it is fashionable to tar all with the same brush.

Of course this is a dangerous game when referring to other religious, ethnic or gender groups.

punisher5112

Priests were abusing though so there is no way of getting away from that and also remember those in charge covered it up.


Who in God's name can live with that.

Shocking shocking stuff.

Of course other have and do abuse but these absolutely filthy backstards could have been stopped from carrying out further rapes and attacks on innocent children....

Sick fookers

badtoro

Well hang on there a second. The "abuse" was one thing, the aiding and abetting and foot dragging and so forth added huge insult to huge injury.

The church is reaping what it sowed. Deservedly so.

jaykay74

riemann wrote: »

It is a very apt observation especially in today's cimlate.

The issue of child abuse is rampant and far from exclusive to the church.

It's sad to see all the selfless work offered by many generations of religious institutions completely ignored, as currently it is fashionable to tar all with the same brush.

Of course this is a dangerous game when referring to other religious, ethnic or gender groups.

Are you being ignorant on purpose ?

NIMAN

I think it was clear to see from the aerial shots today that the numbers definitely weren't high.....people are finally catching on to this shower of child rapists and apologists.

And if you had of taken out the tourists who came for the world meeting of families, leaving just Irish, I would say it would have been a major kick in the stones to the CC.

AllForIt

Warning: The thread title of this thread makes no sense.

bobbysands81

riemann wrote: »

It is a very apt observation especially in today's cimlate.

The issue of child abuse is rampant and far from exclusive to the church.

It's sad to see all the selfless work offered by many generations of religious institutions completely ignored, as currently it is fashionable to tar all with the same brush.

Of course this is a dangerous game when referring to other religious, ethnic or gender groups.

Ahhhhh, that makes it all alright so.

Kermit.de.frog

The one thing I take a bit of an issue with is the use of this word "survivors" to describe victims.

If you're talking about the Holocaust, fair enough.

In this context it is patently not correct terminology. An emotionally charged term misused.

Gimme A Pound

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

The one thing I take a bit of an issue with is the use of this word "survivors" to describe victims.

If you're talking about the Holocaust, fair enough.

In this context it is patently not correct terminology. An emotionally charged term misused.

I've wondered that too. From what I've looked into, it appears the word "victim" is considered inappropriate so survivor is used as an alternative. A more metaphorical interpretation of survival. Makes sense, as victim isn't an ideal term.

Edgware

Demi Savory Swimmer wrote: »

I've wondered that too. From what I've looked into, it appears the word "victim" is considered inappropriate so survivor is used as an alternative. A more metaphorical interpretation of survival. Makes sense, as victim isn't an ideal term.

Growing up I remember one of these victims boasting about being brought to Butlins because he was an altar boy.

punisher5112

Op if you are talking about Dalkey in Co. Dublin then your heading would be believable.

There was some twisted stuff going on in Whites Villas.

riemann

Edgware wrote: »

Growing up I remember one of these victims boasting about being brought to Butlins because he was an altar boy.

Buttlins?

Kristopherus

riemann wrote: »

Buttlins?

Now a holiday camp for the boat people from the Mediterranean:D:D:D.

DivingDuck

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

The one thing I take a bit of an issue with is the use of this word "survivors" to describe victims.

If you're talking about the Holocaust, fair enough.

In this context it is patently not correct terminology. An emotionally charged term misused.

People who've lived through sexual abuse often dislike the term "victim" as it focuses on the abuse and the abuser. "Victim" is essentially a negative term that implies helplessness and powerlessness, and while many people who have been sexually abused were quite literally helpless and powerless (especially those who were abused when they were children by adult pillars of the community), they might prefer not to be reminded of that fact by the word used to refer to them.

You don't have to agree with it linguistically, but when you're dealing with a group of people who suffered through being sexually abused as children, maybe letting them choose how they define and refer to themselves isn't an unreasonable idea.

Edgware

punisher5112 wrote: »

Op if you are talking about Dalkey in Co. Dublin then your heading would be believable.

There was some twisted stuff going on in Whites Villas.

Any evidence of that except the word of the local nutjob

professore

98% me hole. Most abuse I heard of was perpetrated by clergy.

pleas advice

professore wrote: »

98% me hole. Most abuse I heard of was perpetrated by clergy.

'heard of' though

gmisk

pleas advice wrote: »

'heard of' though

Where is the 98 percent figure from?

PopePalpatine

Edgware wrote: »

Growing up I remember one of these victims boasting about being brought to Butlins because he was an altar boy.

Edgware wrote: »

Any evidence of that except the word of the local nutjob

Hmm...

gmisk

riemann wrote: »

It is a very apt observation especially in today's cimlate.

The issue of child abuse is rampant and far from exclusive to the church.

It's sad to see all the selfless work offered by many generations of religious institutions completely ignored, as currently it is fashionable to tar all with the same brush.

Of course this is a dangerous game when referring to other religious, ethnic or gender groups.

Where is this 98 percent figure from!?!

If that is true (and I have my doubts), 2 percent of all the worlds abusers are priests!?! I would say that is quite a lot of people.. Mgiven the number of priests per head of population...are there 50 non people per priest in the world... Nope

Seth Brundle

riemann wrote: »

The issue of child abuse is rampant and far from exclusive to the church.

Quite true but the RCC is doing it's best to frustrate the truth into the abuses carried out by its staff and how it facilitates the activities of the abusers.
Then you have the child trafficking business which will never be fully revealed because they destroyed the records.

riemann wrote: »

It's sad to see all the selfless work offered by many generations of religious institutions completely ignored, as currently it is fashionable to tar all with the same brush.

Institutions such as care homes, Magdalene laundries, etc?

Arthur Daley

gmisk wrote: »

Where is the 98 percent figure from?

The Garda report into child abuse in 2014 gave a similar statistic.

anewme

Harsh as it sounds, we need to move on from this.

It's destroyed enough people and families.

anewme

anewme wrote: »

Harsh as it sounds, we need to move on from this.

It's destroyed enough people.

cool

what would 'moving on' look like then?

anewme

[Deleted User] wrote: »

cool

what would 'moving on' look like then?

I don't know- you tell me.

Roger_007

It is easy to blame all the abuses that occurred in this country on the Church. But, if we do, we are ignoring the the real cause of the problem and that is the rottenness at the core of Irish society.
The church had no power to do anything except the power that was given to them by the Irish people. The people used the church to dispose of their embarrassing problems. The Irish now are great at washing their hands of any responsibility for the actions of the church, but the truth is that the church could have done nothing without the wholehearted support of the people. All the clergy, nuns, priests, brothers etc, came from 'decent Irish Catholic families'. The church simply carried out the wishes of the people.
If anyone doubts where the real responsibility lies, just ask yourself the question: 'how did the women who ended up in Magdelene Laundries and Mother and Baby homes come to be in those places'.
The answer is that they were there because their families and communities rejected them and didn't care what happened to them as long as they didn't bring their 'problem' home. They church simply did society's 'dirty work' and they did it with society's wholehearted approval.

anewme

anewme wrote: »

I don't know- you tell me.

id suggest if you dont know what you have in mind when you advise people to move on from child abuse and a conspiracy to cover up same on an institutional basis then you should not advise people to move on from child abuse and a conspiracy to cover up same on an institutional basis.

thats what id tell you

anewme

[Deleted User] wrote: »

id suggest if you dont know what you have in mind when you advise people to move on from child abuse and a conspiracy to cover up same on an institutional basis then you should not advise people to move on from child abuse and a conspiracy to cover up same on an institutional basis.

thats what id tell you

And I'd tell you to stop preaching to people when you don't know what's going on in their lives.

FrancieBrady

Roger_007 wrote: »

It is easy to blame all the abuses that occurred in this country on the Church. But, if we do, we are ignoring the the real cause of the problem and that is the rottenness at the core of Irish society.
The church had no power to do anything except the power that was given to them by the Irish people. The people used the church to dispose of their embarrassing problems. The Irish now are great at washing their hands of any responsibility for the actions of the church, but the truth is that the church could have done nothing without the wholehearted support of the people. All the clergy, nuns, priests, brothers etc, came from 'decent Irish Catholic families'. The church simply carried out the wishes of the people.
If anyone doubts where the real responsibility lies, just ask yourself the question: 'how did the women who ended up in Magdelene Laundries and Mother and Baby homes come to be in those places'.
The answer is that they were there because their families and communities rejected them and didn't care what happened to them as long as they didn't bring their 'problem' home. They church simply did society's 'dirty work' and they did it with society's wholehearted approval.

Talk about trying to deflect the blame!

They needed the daughter out of the house because the 'church' would make their lives unlivable in the community. The entire family's lives.

Power is the word you are looking for. The church took the power from the people and held on to it. It was a self invigorating rottenness like a cancer. And in fairness to the Irish people, when they discovered the cancer they set about rooting it out.
This weekend demonstrated just how far we have come in rooting it out of society.

Roger Hassenforder

anewme wrote: »

And I'd tell you to stop preaching to people when you don't know what's going on in their lives.

when you don't know what's going on in other's lives, you think they/we should "move on" though...

anewme

anewme wrote: »

And I'd tell you to stop preaching to people when you don't know what's going on in their lives.

read yr post to which i first responded.

last word ill give on it

Gimme A Pound

Roger_007 wrote: »

It is easy to blame all the abuses that occurred in this country on the Church. But, if we do, we are ignoring the the real cause of the problem and that is the rottenness at the core of Irish society.
The church had no power to do anything except the power that was given to them by the Irish people. The people used the church to dispose of their embarrassing problems. The Irish now are great at washing their hands of any responsibility for the actions of the church, but the truth is that the church could have done nothing without the wholehearted support of the people. All the clergy, nuns, priests, brothers etc, came from 'decent Irish Catholic families'. The church simply carried out the wishes of the people.
If anyone doubts where the real responsibility lies, just ask yourself the question: 'how did the women who ended up in Magdelene Laundries and Mother and Baby homes come to be in those places'.
The answer is that they were there because their families and communities rejected them and didn't care what happened to them as long as they didn't bring their 'problem' home. They church simply did society's 'dirty work' and they did it with society's wholehearted approval.

I agree with you to an extent but my issue with too much thinking that way is the danger of the responsibility being removed from the clergy who abused, and those within their organisation who helped cover it up.

My mother would adamantly support your point of view; my father, despite being from a more religious family than my mother, would totally blame the church, saying good people didn't know - and he as a child didn't. I think the answer probably lies in the middle, varying as to whether you're talking urban Ireland or rural Ireland, poor Ireland or middle-class Ireland, educated or uneducated, etc. My mother is from a very rural area that could be tough-going, especially in the winter. My father is from a nice, pretty, comfy little town. He was sheltered - genuinely thought the church was kindness and love.

As my mother says, people got thrown into asylums by their families too for mild misdemeanours, church or no church. But there were also people who were sent to institutions because they were simply taken off their families due to the poverty of the families (or e.g. if the mother became widowed); the families did not have a say.

For a small country, I think it was quite a complex matter.

Hellrazer

anewme wrote: »

Harsh as it sounds, we need to move on from this.

It's destroyed enough people and families.

We`ll move on when these child rapists admit what they did and make some inroads to making sure it doesn't happen again. He didn't go far enough this weekend in addressing these issues.

Dank Janniels

gmisk wrote: »

Where is the 98 percent figure from?

sum guy said it on rte report after the mass, i think thats what the op is alluding to?

NIMAN

Dank Janniels wrote: »

sum guy said it on rte report after the mass, i think thats what the op is alluding to?

Was it not some randomer walking along the street coming out of the Phoenix Park?

Absolutely zero fact based, just a guys opinion.

anewme

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

when you don't know what's going on in other's lives, you think they/we should "move on" though...

I know having lived with this for fifty years that we need to not let it define us.

We need to find a way of accepting it and moving forward with our lives. The best and only revenge is living well.

My Father grew up in Artane Industrial School in the early 1940's.He was an orphan. The orphans had it tougher than the others, as they had no one to defend them or take care of them. Others, put in for mitching or robbing, bullied the orphans as well as them being a soft target for abuse.

It destroyed my Dad and us as a family.

In the Court case, he was described as being one of the most impacted people in Ireland.He recalls seeing a child die- falling down a huge staircase,

A book written 25 years ago or so, brought it all back as he was named without his permission and the whole circus began. And has continued.

My Dad will die without seeing any real justice. That is a fact. He's bad with dementia now, so one positive if there is one, that hopefully those memories are gone, and if there is a God, that he will meet the Mother that he never knew, who rejected him when all he wanted to be was accepted.

Our family has had intense counselling, some fantastic people, and the best and most realistic way of moving forward is to accept you might never get answers, or justice. It's not about forgiveness, it's about acceptance.

Many have died without answers , died seeking answers, but by not letting it define you, you are taking control of the rest of your life, whatever that is.

That's what I mean by moving on, I would advise anyone directly impacted to do the same. Do what's best for your own family situation. Look for a way past this, that gives you peace.

As for the faux outraged patronising brigade even here trying to be smart, they can just fck off as they haven't a fcking clue.

Dank Janniels

NIMAN wrote: »

Was it not some randomer walking along the street coming out of the Phoenix Park?

Absolutely zero fact based, just a guys opinion.

yea that guy, he came across abit thick bout it

Mrs OBumble

punisher5112 wrote: »

Of course other have and do abuse but these absolutely filthy backstards could have been stopped from carrying out further rapes and attacks on innocent children....

Sick fookers

I agree totally. Priest and brothers did appalling things, and the authorities (bishops, guards, lawyers, judges) who should have stopped them were even more appalling.

But I think you'll find that in current times, priests and brothers have been stopped. And any new case that occurs will be dealt with swiftly and correctly.

Whereas your regular Paddy KidFúcker ... well lets just say "Grace".



(All those young women who got pregnant and were put into Mother and Baby homes by their families - do you really believe it was on-the-sly boyfriends who got them pregnant? Priests systematically raping lots of young women? ... )

bisset

Edgware wrote: »

Any evidence of that except the word of the local nutjob

The coroner accepted Cindy Owen's evidence

wexandproud

Roger_007 wrote: »

It is easy to blame all the abuses that occurred in this country on the Church. But, if we do, we are ignoring the the real cause of the problem and that is the rottenness at the core of Irish society.
The church had no power to do anything except the power that was given to them by the Irish people. The people used the church to dispose of their embarrassing problems. The Irish now are great at washing their hands of any responsibility for the actions of the church, but the truth is that the church could have done nothing without the wholehearted support of the people. All the clergy, nuns, priests, brothers etc, came from 'decent Irish Catholic families'. The church simply carried out the wishes of the people.
If anyone doubts where the real responsibility lies, just ask yourself the question: 'how did the women who ended up in Magdelene Laundries and Mother and Baby homes come to be in those places'.
The answer is that they were there because their families and communities rejected them and didn't care what happened to them as long as they didn't bring their 'problem' home. They church simply did society's 'dirty work' and they did it with society's wholehearted approval.

i heard a guy on the radio and then saw him on the news saying he had to explain to the pope about the Magdlen laundries and other institutions . Countries all over europe had done away with these kind of places in the late 1800's early 1900's . All over europe they were seen as not working but they were kept open here , i suppose they were seen as an irish solution to an irish problem
There were terrible crimes inflicted on some of the most vulnerable in society , crimes carried out by sick , twisted people who are being protected by others . However , society as a whole as it looked out through it's squinting windows is not blameless in all that went on

NIMAN

wexandproud wrote: »

i heard a guy on the radio and then saw him on the news saying he had to explain to the pope about the Magdlen laundries and other institutions . Countries all over europe had done away with these kind of places in the late 1800's early 1900's . All over europe they were seen as not working but they were kept open here , i suppose they were seen as an irish solution to an irish problem
There were terrible crimes inflicted on some of the most vulnerable in society , crimes carried out by sick , twisted people who are being protected by others . However , society has a whole as it looked out through it's squinting windows is not blameless in all that went on

Seen that guy myself, and I don't believe for a second that the pope had not heard about them. He was playing dumb if he did.

You really think for one second that :

a) he didn't know about them, despite them being run by the church
b) even if he didn't, that his advisors would let him go to Ireland, where they know that the church is under real scrutiny, without filling him in on everything that the population was really p1ssed about?

I think the guy on the news also hinted that the pope knew nothing about the 800 babies buried in Tuam. Give me a break, of course he did.

wexandproud

NIMAN wrote: »

Seen that guy myself, and I don't believe for a second that the pope had not heard about them. He was playing dumb if he did.

You really think for one second that :

a) he didn't know about them, despite them being run by the church
b) even if he didn't, that his advisors would let him go to Ireland, where they know that the church is under real scrutiny, without filling him in on everything that the population was really p1ssed about?

I think the guy on the news also hinted that the pope knew nothing about the 800 babies buried in Tuam. Give me a break, of course he did.

after listening to several people being interview over the past few days about reform in the church , i think it is possible . . It seems that he is trying to make change but their seems to me a few levels of a kind of ''middle management '' running the church
A guy who sat with the pope and spoke to him a guy who did not appear to have an ajenda [ i know , i know , bad choice of words ] says francis did not appear to know , but you are sure he did , what makes you so sure

NIMAN

You don't think he might have been informed about 800 babies being buried in a mass grave in controversial circumstances by a place overseen by the CC?

I just find it hard to believe.

You don't think the pope is prepped for trips? I'm sure they had to cover everything he might be asked about. Otherwise if he had come out with "what 800 babies", how much of a fool and how useless would that have made him look had it happened?

wexandproud

NIMAN wrote: »

You don't think he might have been informed about 800 babies being buried in a mass grave in controversial circumstances by a place overseen by the CC?

I just find it hard to believe.

You don't think the pope is prepped for trips? I'm sure they had to cover everything he might be asked about. Otherwise if he had come out with "what 800 babies", how much of a fool and how useless would that have made him look had it happened?

i don't want to come across as overly defensive of the pope , or defensive at all of those who carried out terrible deeds , however it's possible that he is not aware . All it takes is someone in the vatican to try and suppress the information in the hope that it wont raise it ugly head .
anyway gotta go see if I can do a days work , good luck

NIMAN

Anything is possible I suppose.

Roger Hassenforder

anewme wrote: »

I know having lived with this for fifty years that we need to not let it define us.

We need to find a way of accepting it and moving forward with our lives. The best and only revenge is living well.

That's horrific, I dont know how I'd deal with it.
Nor would I tell others how they should.

But until the Church actually says "sorry" for the abuse and cover ups, rather than expressing regret, and facilitating rather than frustrating criminal justice, it's rather difficult to move on.

I'm glad you have a way. I hope things work out for you.

Ash.J.Williams

riemann wrote: »

It is a very apt observation especially in today's cimlate.

The issue of child abuse is rampant and far from exclusive to the church.

It's sad to see all the selfless work offered by many generations of religious institutions completely ignored, as currently it is fashionable to tar all with the same brush.

Of course this is a dangerous game when referring to other religious, ethnic or gender groups.

You need to read up the the church abuse as you don't seem to grasp the seriousness of how a worldwide cult can hide predators and move them around from the highest level.

Mr. CooL ICE

Mod: Closing, as we already have two active pope threads and this topic is already being discussed