9yr old boy kills himself due to anti-gay bullying

Neyite

freshpopcorn wrote: »

Can I ask you does any of this work? Unless a teacher witnesses it or several people comes forward.
I went to a primary and secondary school which was a telling schools and had bullying codes etc.(No odd sock day I thought that was for down syndrome but we did have a gay week) Now the odd person did get bullied every so often but a lot of teasing did go on.

The odd sock day for his class was about all differences in general, maybe it was more specific for the older classes. We've a few family members with differing SN anyway, and his creche had kids with SN and different ethnicities so he got the concept easily.

My lad is in SI so it's early days for me to report first hand on that, but for his older cousins who were at the school the first time that one of them saw some nasty bullying was towards the end of sixth class when some of them had phones and it was via an external message group. But my lad has came home with anecdotes that tell me the kids generally do look out for each other and that the older kids are kind and helpful towards the smallies. It's a very small village school though and at least one half of the parents themselves have nearly all attended school together bar one or two so maybe that helps.

You are right though, it is incredibly difficult to stamp out bullying entirely. And a lot of it starts at home. Teachers have a full on job to do and can't be everywhere or see everything. A bully very often has a parent who dismisses or excuses their behaviour and that's where maybe it needs to be tackled head on? As a bullied child I'd come down like a ton of bricks on my lad if I ever heard he was bullying another child. I've told him in an age-appropriate way how I was bullied in school and how it made me feel and how wrong it is. We don't allow teasing that goes beyond a joke at home, people's feelings are respected no matter what age they are and we talk a lot about being kind and respectful towards each other when having fun so I hope we are teaching him something he uses in his daily life outside the home.

Hector Bellend

Dole Scrounging Vegan Crossfitter wrote: »

I fancied the pants off Belinda Carlisle when I was 5

gay?

Irish Kings

Poor little fella, but it begs the question would a heterosexual 9 year old who committed suicide due to bullying for something else even make the international news now ? I doubt it.

For all the shyte talk about mental health problems being trendy now, there is fck all help or care about anyone with real mental health issues, including this little lad, who was probably recommended mindfulness classes, yoga, and blogging.

Sonics2k

Deusexmachina wrote: »

I never for one second suggested there was anything wrong with him. I absolutley reject your snide allegation.

I expressed genuine and sincere sympathy for the poor boy and his parents. Its a horrific thing to have happened.

I stated that, as an innocent little boy of 9 years old, he should not have been in any way contemplating his sexuality - never mind coming out with a public statement of pride in his gayness.

It is not something a child of 9 should be contemplating in any way. My point was that children of that age should be fully emersed in childrens activities and pleasures - innocent fun.

I do not care whether these activities are 'boyish' or 'girlish' - merely that they are normal, fun things that little children do - colouring books, playing with plasticine, running and jumpling.


Please do not make this about bloody gender!!

Hang on a moment. Are you going to say that as a 9 year old you didn't have a crush on another kid? I know I did, and I can even remember her name.

That's -exactly- how kids start to realise they are gay, they look at another kid of the same gender and develop feelings for them.

I remember in primary school there was a boy in our class who was clearly gay. We're talking flaming John Waters (the yank, not the twat) levels of camp here and he was bullied to absolute hell by other kids for it. I ended up going to secondary school with him for a few years and it carried on then.

He didn't actually come out (officially) until he was 19 and starting University after a life-time of denying it publicly out of pure fear of what would happen

And again. Being gay or straight has very little to do with sex, it's mostly about who we are emotionally attracted to.

igCorcaigh

joey100 wrote: »

But does it really matter if he was gay or not? Kids that age decide they are something in their heads and that's it, it could have been some one he looked up to is gay and he wanted to be like them or it could have been that he was gay and knew he was. The issue isn't that a nine year old said he was gay, the issue is that he was bullied enough that he committed suicide. Maybe he was gay, maybe he wasn't, that's beside the point really.

It's not beside the point at all, the kid had told other kids he was gay, got bullied as a result and the bullies told him to kill himself. Which he did.

That's what I took from the story anyway.

Deusexmachina

Sonics2k wrote: »

Hang on a moment. Are you going to say that as a 9 year old you didn't have a crush on another kid? I know I did, and I can even remember her name.

That's -exactly- how kids start to realise they are gay, they look at another kid of the same gender and develop feelings for them.

I remember in primary school there was a boy in our class who was clearly gay. We're talking flaming John Waters (the yank, not the twat) levels of camp here and he was bullied to absolute hell by other kids for it. I ended up going to secondary school with him for a few years and it carried on then.

He didn't actually come out (officially) until he was 19 and starting University after a life-time of denying it publicly out of pure fear of what would happen

And again. Being gay or straight has very little to do with sex, it's mostly about who we are emotionally attracted to.

Are you arguing that we should have 9 year olds ‘coming out’ in school and stating that they are ‘proud to be gay’?

igCorcaigh

Deusexmachina wrote: »

Are you arguing that we should have 9 year olds ‘coming out’ in school and stating that they are ‘proud to be gay’?

Why not? Do we have to have age limits on recognising sexual orientation?

Deusexmachina

igCorcaigh wrote: »

Why not? Do we have to have age limits on recognising sexual orientation?

Spare me.

igCorcaigh

Deusexmachina wrote: »

Spare me.

This tragic case happened because of the bulling kids had adopted a homophobic attitude from their environment. Not because of the current attempts to change that environment.

Maybe I'm not getting where you're coming from, I haven't read all the thread. But a response of more than two words would help too.

Irish Kings

What happened to the days before all this gender politics, and kids could just be kids ?

Deusexmachina

igCorcaigh wrote: »

This tragic case happened because of the bulling kids had adopted a homophobic attitude from their environment. Not because of the current attempts to change that environment.

Maybe I'm not getting where you're coming from, I haven't read all the thread. But a response of more than two words would help too.

You’re dead right. Read the thread.

igCorcaigh

Irish Kings wrote: »

What happened the days before all this gender politics, and kids could just be kids ?

Gay kids grew up in fear and shame. And as adults, many lived fractured lives. That's what happened.

Thankfully, things are changing.

Irish Kings

igCorcaigh wrote: »

Gay kids grew up in fear and shame. And as adults, many lived fractured lives. That's what happened.

Thankfully, things are changing.

yep really chaining for the better in north american aren't they, where now they are gender political fodder

igCorcaigh

Deusexmachina wrote: »

You’re dead right. Read the thread.

Fair enough, I did jump in on the end. No disrespect.

igCorcaigh

Irish Kings wrote: »

yep really chaining for the better in north america aren't they, where now they are gender political fodder.

That's the adults political games. I just want a world where gay kids can grow up without the mental torture. And that's up to us adults to sort out.

Irish Kings

igCorcaigh wrote: »

That's the adults politics games. I just want a world where gay kids can grow up without the mental torture. And that's up to us adults to sort out.

I want a world where all kids can, not just ones that have been politically labeled.

Sonics2k

Deusexmachina wrote: »

Are you arguing that we should have 9 year olds ‘coming out’ in school and stating that they are ‘proud to be gay’?

As opposed to living in fear and shame? Absolutely they should.

Frankly, I'm hoping for the day when kids don't need to come out, when the whole concept doesn't matter.

But, kids learn the attitudes based on their parents behavior. No child is inherently homophobic or racist, they learn it. The attitudes displayed by these children were learned from their own parents.

Surely we should be pointing the finger at those kids and their parents, and not an innocent child who did -nothing- wrong. He was just a 9 year old boy and so horribly bullied he took his own life, and your response is "oh well, maybe he should have shut up".

igCorcaigh

Irish Kings wrote: »

I want a world where all kids can, not just ones that have been politically labeled.

The word gay is not a political label. It is a word that reflects something real about people; children and adults. It's a reality.

Irish Kings

igCorcaigh wrote: »

The word gay is not a political label. It is a word that reflects something real about people; children and adults. It's a reality.

How about the first the thing you learn is to stop labeling people and little children by sexual orientation ?

Bacchus

Irish Kings wrote: »

I want a world where all kids can, not just ones that have been politically labeled.

Since when is being gay a "political label"?

Grey Wind

Also, this story is about someone who died because of homophobic bullying. The discussion is naturally going to centre around that, obviously everyone wants a world where all kids don't need to fear bullying and judgement.

I also find it kind of horrifying that, after seeing a story about a child who commit suicide, so many people's immediate reaction is to whine about "gender politics", "political labels", and how it wouldn't have made the news if he was straight. Nobody cares about your pseudo-intellectual hot takes.

igCorcaigh

Irish Kings wrote: »

How about the first the thing you learn is to stop labeling people and little children by sexual orientation ?

I'm not labelling anyone. This little kid expressed a word that he seemed to identify with. That expression of self ended in this tragic story.

twirlagig

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

Tragic. Kids are really been made to grow up too fast these days.

I agree with you ... when I was 9, it was 1983. I hadn’t a clue about other sexual preferences.

Grey Wind

twirlagig wrote: »

I agree with you ... when I was 9, it was 1983. I hadn’t a clue about other sexual preferences.

Why do you guys keep saying stuff like this as if the 80s were a welcoming time where homophobic bullying didn't exist.

batgoat

For those saying that kids know too much too much now... Think most people when I was 9 were pretty informed via various different means including siblings. I'm 27 now, would have been similar for my brother and he's a decade older... Also had crushes by age 9 so it's hardly that far out that a 9 year old realises they're attracted to same sex.

igCorcaigh

twirlagig wrote: »

I agree with you ... when I was 9, it was 1983. I hadn’t a clue about other sexual preferences.

I had a clue about other sexual preferences from a very early age. My parents, the people on the TV, the whole of society.

It took me time to figure out that what I had always emotionally felt, had anything to do with the word sexual or sex. That word was only in the songs I listened to.

I was eleven or twelve when I understood what the word gay meant. We had other words in our school for that which I thought were just insults.

And immediately, the second thing I understood was to keep my realisation quiet.

twirlagig

Grey Wind wrote: »

Why do you guys keep saying stuff like this as if the 80s were a welcoming time where homophobic bullying didn't exist.

I’m not saying anything like that, only that from what I remember as a child back then.
I’m sure there was bullying going on back then but talking now and remembering back, as a child of maybe 9 or 10 years of age I knew nothing about anything like that.

igCorcaigh

igCorcaigh wrote: »

And immediately, the second thing I understood was to keep my realisation quiet.

And the little kid in this story did not keep it quiet.

One eyed Jack

Sonics2k wrote: »

Hang on a moment. Are you going to say that as a 9 year old you didn't have a crush on another kid? I know I did, and I can even remember her name.

That's -exactly- how kids start to realise they are gay, they look at another kid of the same gender and develop feelings for them.

There has been no mention of the child in this particular case being attracted to anyone else of the same sex though? I know what you mean and all and I’d agree with you of course to an extent. The reason I can only agree to an extent is because I don’t agree at all that it’s exactly how children start to realise they are or aren’t gay, or lesbian, or bisexual, or transgender, etc. It’s really not as simplistic as that, and with the child in this particular case I would be of the opinion that there isn’t any one explanation as to why he chose to take his own life.

I remember in primary school there was a boy in our class who was clearly gay. We're talking flaming John Waters (the yank, not the twat) levels of camp here and he was bullied to absolute hell by other kids for it. I ended up going to secondary school with him for a few years and it carried on then.

He didn't actually come out (officially) until he was 19 and starting University after a life-time of denying it publicly out of pure fear of what would happen

He was clearly camp then, but I don’t think it would be so easy to determine a persons sexual orientation just by looking at them. I had people assume I was gay because of the way I walked. It wasn’t so obvious that the only reason I walked the way I did was because I’d a gammy hip :pac:

I was just more discreet about my deviant dalliances as a teenage delinquent, and certainly I wasn’t going to be broadcasting my sex life on the school playground, not the place for it IMO. It wasn’t that I felt I had done anything to be particularly ashamed of at the time. I just felt it wasn’t anyone else’s business. I certainly wouldn’t have labelled myself as gay for having been sexually attracted to older men as a child, I didn’t have any comprehension or understanding of sexuality because it just wasn’t something that was generally talked about. I had no idea there was any such thing as homosexuality at the time and therefore as far as I was concerned I didn’t feel any different to anyone else because I didn’t know how anyone else actually felt. I thought what I felt was perfectly natural and normal, never caused me any conflict, confusion, discomfort or distress.

I was about the same age as this child at the time and so I genuinely do wonder why or how a child was so aware of their own sexuality that they were actually fearful of being gay, while proclaiming at the same time that they were proud to be gay and wanted to come out to their peers at school. It really does appear as though the child was emulating behaviours and attitudes they had seen in adults, and took it to it’s extreme.

And again. Being gay or straight has very little to do with sex, it's mostly about who we are emotionally attracted to.

Bollocks Sonics tbh. Being gay or straight has a whole lot to do with sexual orientation, and which sex one is sexually attracted to. Emotional attraction to anyone regardless of their sex is what has fcukall to do with being gay or straight. Maybe that’s what the child in this particular case had understood as being gay, and I can see where they might have come up with that idea.

Sonics2k wrote: »

But, kids learn the attitudes based on their parents behavior. No child is inherently homophobic or racist, they learn it. The attitudes displayed by these children were learned from their own parents.

Surely we should be pointing the finger at those kids and their parents, and not an innocent child who did -nothing- wrong. He was just a 9 year old boy and so horribly bullied he took his own life, and your response is "oh well, maybe he should have shut up".

Of course there are children born who are inherently homophobic or racist, as there are children born who are inherently heterosexual or homosexual. I don’t know that the attitudes these children displayed telling the child to kill himself were as a result of their parental influence or peer group influence, where they too went to extremes to outdo each other for attention and validation within their own peer group. I don’t think pointing fingers is going to achieve anything at this stage tbh. The damage is already done. Who’s responsible for a child who chooses to take their own life? I guess if you wanted to you could indeed find reasons to blame just about anyone you wanted. I don’t think it would do any good though.

The_Kew_Tour

Very sad when a kid of any age feels that's the best option.

igCorcaigh

batgoat wrote: »

For those saying that kids know too much too much now... Think most people when I was 9 were pretty informed via various different means including siblings. I'm 27 now, would have been similar for my brother and he's a decade older... Also had crushes by age 9 so it's hardly that far out that a 9 year old realises they're attracted to same sex.

Totally. But straight people never needed a word for it. Or had to proclaim it. That's the difference.

And it's tragic that that difference still exists. And that difference was a causative factor in this terrible story.

Ave Sodalis

One eyed Jack wrote:

Bollocks Sonics tbh. Being gay or straight has a whole lot to do with sexual orientation, and which sex one is sexually attracted to. Emotional attraction to anyone regardless of their sex is what has fcukall to do with being gay or straight. Maybe that’s what the child in this particular case had understood as being gay, and I can see where they might have come up with that idea.

On the contrary, being gay has everything to do with emotional attraction. Sexual attraction can happen to a person of the same gender, even if you're straight. What makes you gay, as opposed to curious or just think a person is really attractive, is the emotion behind it. Being gay or straight is more than just wanting to jump into bed with someone.

You can be sexually attracted to someone of the same gender and be straight. You cannot be emotionally attracted to someone of the same gender and be straight.

kylith

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Of course there are children born who are inherently homophobic or racist, as there are children born who are inherently heterosexual or homosexual.

Absolute bollocks. You are not born homophobic or racist, those are learned behaviours, unlike sexual orientation which is inherent, not learned.

kylith

kylith wrote: »

Absolute bollocks. You are not born homophobic or racist, those are learned behaviours, unlike sexual orientation which is inherent, not learned.

While I agree with you 99%... Sexual orientation can be learned through personal experiences. People have changed their sexual orientation previously due events experienced. Although, I would agree that sexual orientation is usually inherent.

Wibbs

kylith wrote: »

Absolute bollocks. You are not born homophobic or racist, those are learned behaviours, unlike sexual orientation which is inherent, not learned.

I'd almost entirely agree K, but I would contend that tribalism, xenophobia and picking out and picking on the Other™ is quite inherent in the human animal. Culture teaches us which Other™ we pick out and pick on. If this thread was around in say the 1890's pretty much every single person posting would be both racist and homophobic.

Deusexmachina

kylith wrote: »

Absolute bollocks. You are not born homophobic or racist, those are learned behaviours, unlike sexual orientation which is inherent, not learned.

A nine year old child declaring that he’s ‘proud to be gay’ is learned behavior.

Deusexmachina

Deusexmachina wrote: »

A nine year old child declaring that he’s ‘proud to be gay’ is learned behavior.

Or straight, for that matter

One eyed Jack

Ave Sodalis wrote: »

On the contrary, being gay has everything to do with emotional attraction. Sexual attraction can happen to a person of the same gender, even if you're straight. What makes you gay, as opposed to curious or just think a person is really attractive, is the emotion behind it. Being gay or straight is more than just wanting to jump into bed with someone.

It really isn’t.

You can be sexually attracted to someone of the same gender and be straight.

Of course you can, but sexual orientation isn’t based upon focusing on being sexually attracted to one particular or specific individual, it’s based on the sex a person is generally attracted to.

You cannot be emotionally attracted to someone of the same gender and be straight.

Of course you can. It’s formed the basis of male and females emotionally bonding with each other throughout the history of human civilised society. It doesn’t immediately imply at all that because two men enjoy each other’s company that they may be gay and not realise it, nor would it imply the same of women for that matter, or male and female children who preferred to associate with other children of their own sex. Are those children being discriminatory? Absolutely. Is there anything inherently wrong with being discriminatory? Nope, and it certainly doesn’t imply anything about their sexual orientation.

igCorcaigh

Deusexmachina wrote: »

A nine year old child declaring that he’s ‘proud to be gay’ is learned behavior.

A nine year old child feeling shamed for being gay is learned behaviour.

Enforced from society. This is what we are trying to change. I wish you could see it.

Deusexmachina

igCorcaigh wrote: »

A nine year old child feeling shamed for being gay is learned behaviour.

Enforced from society. This is what we are trying to change. I wish you could see it.

See above.

igCorcaigh

Is it that you cannot accept that sexual orientation is natural and innate?

It's normal to be gay.
It's normal to be straight.

But these are just words, labels, if you like.
But, they describe a reality.

Ave Sodalis

One eyed Jack wrote:

It really isn’t.

So you're saying that gay relationships aren't real, and they're actually just friends with benefits?

One eyed Jack wrote:

Of course you can. It’s formed the basis of male and females emotionally bonding with each other throughout the history of human civilised society. It doesn’t immediately imply at all that because two men enjoy each other’s company that they may be gay and not realise it, nor would it imply the same of women for that matter, or male and female children who preferred to associate with other children of their own sex. Are those children being discriminatory? Absolutely. Is there anything inherently wrong with being discriminatory? Nope, and it certainly doesn’t imply anything about their sexual orientation.

Enjoying the company of, being friends with, or association with anyone is not emotional attraction.

Deusexmachina

igCorcaigh wrote: »

Is it that you cannot accept that sexual orientation is natural and innate?

It's normal to be gay.
It's normal to be straight.

But these are just words, labels, if you like.
But, they describe a reality.

They should not apply to 9 year old children. Leave them alone.

One eyed Jack

kylith wrote: »

Absolute bollocks. You are not born homophobic or racist, those are learned behaviours, unlike sexual orientation which is inherent, not learned.

Of course you are. What you might learn to call those behaviours and attitudes after that is really your own business, and whether you perceive them as a positive or negative trait is based upon your own perception as an individual, and how that perception is influenced by your environment.

One eyed Jack

Ave Sodalis wrote: »

So you're saying that gay relationships aren't real, and they're actually just friends with benefits?

Seriously, you’re going with the “so what you’re saying is”, and saying something I didn’t say at all.


EDIT: I think I see where the confusion may have arisen. When you mentioned being attracted to a particular gender, I don’t define sexual orientation in terms of gender, but rather by sex. I didn’t mean sexual orientation is defined by sexual activity in which one chooses to participate, but rather the sex of the participants.

Enjoying the company of, being friends with, or association with anyone is not emotional attraction.

That wasn’t your original point though, was it? You said you cannot be emotionally attracted to someone of the same gender and be straight. I’m pointing out that emotional attraction isn’t predicated upon sexual orientation, has literally nothing to do with it.

Annasopra

zom wrote: »

For 9 year old ??

To have sex. Yes!!!!!!!!!

Irish Kings

Deusexmachina wrote: »

They should not apply to 9 year old children. Leave them alone.

Exactly. Now it seems little children have to be labeled 'gay' or 'straight' etc. instead of simply being children so they can be used as fodder and pawns in the gender/sexuality politics game.

Annasopra

kylith wrote: »

Absolute bollocks. You are not born homophobic or racist, those are learned behaviours, unlike sexual orientation which is inherent, not learned.

I agree with you. I learned from a young age to be homophobic and racist towards travellers because of the culture that I grew up in. Now I am the complete opposite. If as One Eyed Jack suggests that homophobia and racism are something we are all born with and an innate immutable characteristic that is part of us then how come I managed to learn not to be homophobic or racist towards travellers. The argument people are born racist or homophobic is complete and utter drivel.

igCorcaigh

Deusexmachina wrote: »

They should not apply to 9 year old children. Leave them alone.

It applied to me when I was 9.
I was gay then.
The pressure to be labelled came from other people.

One eyed Jack

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

I agree with you. I learned from a young age to be homophobic and racist towards travellers because of the culture that I grew up in. Now I am the complete opposite. If as One Eyed Jack suggests that homophobia and racism are something we are all born with and an innate immutable characteristic that is part of us then how come I managed to learn not to be homophobic or racist towards travellers. The argument people are born racist or homophobic is complete and utter drivel.

You answered your own question there Joey - because you were educated. Now whether that was through experience or the formal education system is neither here nor there, but the point is that just like you would also have learned from a young age to be straight, there was no changing that either. As hard as whoever had tried, it turns out you weren’t born racist or homophobic either.