Where have all the subcultures gone?

thebull85

kunst nugget wrote: »

That's weird… I keep hearing shyte music and shyte comedy and seeing shyte movies.

Thats that post fixed.

Duffy the Vampire Slayer

Zirconia wrote: »

Talking of the 80's don't forget the sportos, the motorheads, geeks, sluts, bloods, waistoids, dweebies, dickheads - they all used to think I was a righteous dude!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mHa1zTLrXO8

Terrible film. Couldn't believe how bad it was when I first saw it.

sbsquarepants

ablelocks wrote: »

subculture of 1.

Great name for a band, or an autobiography!

Sardine wrote: »

Yeah it's still going on, I see it in North Inner City Dublin all the time. I suppose their ma's would have done the same, walk to the shops without bothering to get changed, and then it just became the norm. To the rest of us it just looks like lazy slobbery.

Looks exactly like what it is so - shower of lazy skanks!

professore

tomofson wrote: »

The strong bulky and brutish vs the shy intelligent and weak.

Never got this. If you are so "strong" why are you picking on the weakest? Bully someone really strong who fights back! One good punch mostly sorted them out. The really toughest guys never bullied anyone.

tomofson

sbsquarepants wrote: »

Great name for a band, or an autobiography!



Looks exactly like what it is so - shower of lazy skanks!

I wouldn't say they are a proper subculture though, what music do they listen to? Who are they copying and trying to replicate?

The "benefit class" dress what way they do out of necessity and not to make some sort of stand.

professore

rainbowtrout wrote: »

I teach in a secondary school and have noticed that there is far less individuality as a whole. Granted they are wearing school uniforms most of the time, but if we have a group away for the day and they are not in uniform, there generally isn't anything fashion wise that makes any student stand out as being different.

And short hair for girls as a hairstyle is pretty much non existent these days. Whatever about the differences between goths and rockers within their own groups in the 80s, seeing a teenage girl with short hair is a rare sight these days where I work. Short styles like a bob or a pixie cut just don't exist. That in my book wouldn't be in anyway radical, but I imagine for the girls I teach it would.

The no short hair on girls thing is the only positive I see here.

professore

Duffy the Vampire Slayer wrote: »

Terrible film. Couldn't believe how bad it was when I first saw it.

What was bad about it!? It sums up life in a nutshell.

professore

andekwarhola wrote: »

It's symptomatic of a specific problem of cultural exhaustion and circularity ultimately leading to pastiche. Post-modernists called it Cannibalization. Major narratives are now fragmented. Accelerated access to information has led to a pick-and-mix approach to culture, subculture and the past.

Classic teenage subcultures as we understand them were usually class-specific, regional cults that slowly spread outwards. Subculture has now hyper-accelerated and become self-referential leading to a levelling out of sorts.

It has a corollary with the music that directly inspires subcultures. Not only have most genres like alternative rock become exhausted and circular but music is no longer difficult to obtain. Kids in bands 30 years ago had to painstakingly seek out music and make connections, now you can do a Cliff Notes summary of entire genres on You Tube in 2 hours.

Basically, teenage subcultures are a historical artefact of which you can appropriate elements but it will never be a thing in the way that it was.

It's the conformist 1950s all over again. This generation is one of the most conservative we've ever had. They all follow a certain way of thinking and don't question anything. The dogma they follow is different, but it's dogma nonetheless.

Ragnar Lothbrok

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

That’s like saying you can’t tell the difference between someone dressed as a hipster and someone dressed as a gym bunny. Obviously anyone cooks foot the difference be between genres.

But would they tell the difference between the skinhead’s styles? Or would they have seen them all as the same?

Would they have been able to tell the difference between rocker styles or would they have seen them as all the same?

But my point was that Skinheads* were all part of the same subculture. Regardless of the slight variations in style, we knew we were Skinheads*.

* = Same goes for any of the other subcultures.

The various subcultures were so massively and markedly different to each other that it would have been impossible for someone to say that they couldn't see the difference.

I just don't see that there are the same marked differences today. Younger people may disagree with me and point to various differences in style, but in reality they are all very, very similar to look at and do not have specific genres of music attached to their clothes/looks in the same way that we had.

I can spot what I believe to be a "Hipster" but what the hell is a gym bunny?

.......

professore wrote: »

It's the conformist 1950s all over again. This generation is one of the most conservative we've ever had. They all follow a certain way of thinking and don't question anything. The dogma they follow is different, but it's dogma nonetheless.

Is that true though?

I would have thought we live in a time where everyone has a voice in a way they never did before.

I can tweet at Elon Musk and he might see it and respond. 30 years ago I simply had no access to get a message to someone like him.

Also these days its possible to find other people who think the same way you do in a way that was never possible before. Someone mentioned earlier about being the only curehead in the village - but now you could interact with cureheads all over the world online. And it seems to have resulted in the death of subculture rather than enhanced it.

RayCun

....... wrote: »

It meant ...you werent afraid to be different.

In its bollocks.

You are complaining that people aren't wearing identifiable uniforms.

5rtytry56

sbsquarepants wrote: »

Great name for a band, or an autobiography!

As an autobiography......

The remaining Irish Independent Bookshops might just take an interest.

.......

Ragnar Lothbrok wrote: »

..what the hell is a gym bunny?

Im not sure that people citing gym bunnies have the same understanding of subcultures as I meant when I opened the thread.

There arent specific "gym bunny" bars, specific "gym bunny" music. If a "gym bunny" is dressing up to go out socially she probably isnt in gym clothes.

Whereas a rocker had particular bars we went to like McGonagles and Fibbers, obviously specific music, when we dressed up to go out we did so in the same style - we were still rockers.

Being a gym bunny is just someone who likes to keep fit. They existed back in the day too - but they werent a subculture.

.......

RayCun wrote: »

In its bollocks.

You are complaining that people aren't wearing identifiable uniforms.

Im not complaining. If your perception of having a chat about something is that someone is complaining then maybe boards.ie is the wrong place for you?

Kids are all in an identifiable uniform. Nobody looks "different" anymore. Thats not how it used to be.

quokula

Surely choosing a subculture then wearing the uniform so you conform precisely to everyone else in that subculture is the epitome of conformity.

I think it’s good that people today have broken out of that kind of thing and are instead free to be themselves and express themselves properly. When I was young I basically didn’t conform to any of the subcultures and I always found it odd how my friends that did thought painstakingly copying a defined style made them original and unique.

El_Duderino 09

tomofson wrote: »

sbsquarepants wrote: »

Great name for a band, or an autobiography!



Looks exactly like what it is so - shower of lazy skanks!

I wouldn't say they are a proper subculture though, what music do they listen to? Who are they copying and trying to replicate?.

Classic!

Yeah subcultures today aren’t real subcultures because they weren’t based on the same things as back in my day. Said every old generation ever.

Who said fashion subcultures had to be based on music?
Mid you can’t tell young people’s fashion apart, then you’re too far removed. That’s normal if you got it, it would have to change.

RayCun

....... wrote: »

Kids are all in an identifiable uniform. Nobody looks "different" anymore. Thats not how it used to be.

But they're not in a uniform.
Dressing all in black with your hair-back-combed - that's a uniform.
Long hair and double-denim - that's a uniform.

Kids today don't wear identical clothes, there are plenty of differences in how different people dress, and lots of overlapping sets.

.......

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Classic!

Yeah subcultures today aren’t real subcultures because they weren’t based on the same things as back in my day. Said every old generation ever.

Who said fashion subcultures had to be based on music?
Mid you can’t tell young people’s fashion apart, then you’re too far removed. That’s normal if you got it, it would have to change.

But thats what we are talking about.

Its already been said that there are plenty of subcultures not based on how you look or what you listen to - there always were.

We are specifically talking about the likes of mods, rockers, goths, cureheads etc... whose subculture WAS based on music.

Theres no equivalent today.

Maybe I should change the thread title so people are not confused.

Ragnar Lothbrok

This thread has got me looking back to my youth in the 70s and early 80s. While I agree that there doesn't seem to be as many easily defined styles around today, I'm thinking maybe it wasn't too much different back then either, as far as the majority of kids were concerned.

I went to a large school in a semi-rural area of England. It had a very large catchment area, and I think there were 1400 or so students. Of these 1400, some of us were Skinheads, others were Punks, others were Rockers, Mods, New Romantics, etc. Even in school uniform it was fairly easy for us to know who was who. However, the vast majority of students were not part of any subculture.

I think the point of this thread is that whereas in my youth, dressing a certain way meant that you preferred a certain type of music (almost to the exclusion of any other genre), went to certain pubs, went to certain gigs, etc, this doesn't seem to be the case today. In many ways, how we dressed defined us, and to a certain extent our lifestyle reflected this.

I must also point out that as a teenage Skinhead, I certainly didn't realise that I was part of a "subculture" - I just thought I looked cool

.......

Ragnar Lothbrok wrote: »

This thread has got me looking back to my youth in the 70s and early 80s. While I agree that there doesn't seem to be as many easily defined styles around today, I'm thinking maybe it wasn't too much different back then either, as far as the majority of kids were concerned.

Absolutely - most people were "norms".

But these days its like there are only norms.

El_Duderino 09

....... wrote: »

Absolutely - most people were "norms".

But these days its like there are only norms.

What music fashion styles do you know about in 2018? Off the top of your head?

.......

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

What music fashion styles do you know about in 2018? Off the top of your head?

Are there any?

RobbingBandit

Only hipsters now Ted weed beards coffee and ironic quips with the girls all decked out in raybans.

El_Duderino 09

....... wrote: »

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

What music fashion styles do you know about in 2018? Off the top of your head?

Are there any?

Yes. Im curious to know if you would know them if you saw them.

I take it you don’t know any then. How long since you watched a music channel on tv where you see the videos and could distinguish the styles?

Never seen blokes dressed as gangsta rappers in real life? Flat peak baseball caps and all that? Or pop tarts with ripped jeans and belly tops?

Isn’t it all together too rich to say there aren’t any styles when what you mean us you can’t recognise the styles.

.......

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Yes. Im curious to know if you would know them if you saw them.

I take it you don’t know any then.

Eh, is it not obvious since my opening post that I am not aware of any?

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Never seen blokes dressed as gangsta rappers in real life? Flat peak baseball caps and all that? Or pop tarts with ripped jeans and belly tops?

No I havent. Throw up a few pics of people dressed like this around Ireland?

The only girls I see in ripped jeans and belly tops are young traveller girls - they have quite a distinctive look - but its not a subculture based on music.

CalamariFritti

sbsquarepants wrote: »

Shower of oddballs put me off even listening to the cure first time around, something I've started doing only recently.

I'm pissed off because it turns out they were pretty damn good all along!

Cure are insanely good. Totally underrated band in terms of mainstream appreciation. They could be as big as the Beatles only for the hair and goth look.

The Crowman

RobbingBandit wrote: »

Only hipsters now Ted weed beards coffee and ironic quips with the girls all decked out in raybans.

Its telling that hipsters are mainly in their twenties/thirties and beyond. Most of the people I know who belong to "subcultures" like mods etc are largely middle aged nostalgic revivalists reliving their youth.

El_Duderino 09

....... wrote: »

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Yes. Im curious to know if you would know them if you saw them.

I take it you don’t know any then.

Eh, is it not obvious since my opening post that I am not aware of any?

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Never seen blokes dressed as gangsta rappers in real life? Flat peak baseball caps and all that? Or pop tarts with ripped jeans and belly tops?

No I havent. Throw up a few pics of people dressed like this around Ireland?

The only girls I see in ripped jeans and belly tops are young traveller girls - they have quite a distinctive look - but its not a subculture based on music.

Do you want me to go out onto the street and start looking for people to take pictures of, and then put them on boards? Cos, I’m not going to do that.

Ah, if you don’t see them then you must be somewhere altogether sheltered and with a lot of travellers. The schools are off now. If I go for a walk at lunchtime around the city centre I could see dozens of young wans with ripped jeans and belly buttons on display.

This is a thinly veiled ‘young people do things different from my day and I don’t like it’ thread.

.......

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Do you want me to go out onto the street and start looking for people to take pictures of, and then put them on boards? Cos, I’m not going to do that.

Ok - so if you cant find any pics online then its clearly not much of a subculture that you are referring to?

We've had multiple video links posted of goths/cureheads/punks etc..

If theres that many girls going around in ripped jeans an belly tops then surely itd be visible in news reports, newspaper images etc? What music do girls in ripped jeans and belly tops listen to? What bars are aimed at this subculture? Whats it called?

I just dont know what you are referring to - but if you cant illustrate it then there isnt much more for discussion on it is there?

I can illustrate all of the various subcultures I mentioned quite easily - links abound.

But when youre asked to throw up a few pics you got nothing?

Lorelli!

Ellis Scarce Beeswax wrote: »

You sure did, but there is still absolutely no way that there was the same access to any music you wanted, or as cheap, even for free. Waiting around in case the dj played your favourite song to tape is definitely not the same as looking up anything you want in your own time and playing it yourself immediately/keeping it in full without someone talking over it/cutting it short.

You appreciated it more though!

It was mostly mainstream when I was growing up. Most of my peers liked rap or pop or indie but didn't really dress in any way to reflect that. There wasn't really any subculture to relate too. I rarely met anyone who shared my taste in music when I was a teenager.

I think I'd have liked to be a glam rocker or part of the Nortern Soul scene.

RobbingBandit

Flatearthers the world ain't round don't cha know

The Crowman

RobbingBandit wrote: »

Flatearthers the world ain't round don't cha know

Thats not a subculture just an irrational belief system like anti vax, conspiracy theorists etc.

RayCun

....... wrote: »

If theres that many girls going around in ripped jeans an belly tops then surely itd be visible in news reports, newspaper images etc?

you've never seen girls/women wearing these?

El_Duderino 09

....... wrote: »

Ok - so if you cant find any pics online then its clearly not much of a subculture that you are referring to?

We've had multiple video links posted of goths/cureheads/punks etc..

If theres that many girls going around in ripped jeans an belly tops then surely itd be visible in news reports, newspaper images etc? What music do girls in ripped jeans and belly tops listen to? What bars are aimed at this subculture? Whats it called?

I just dont know what you are referring to - but if you cant illustrate it then there isnt much more for discussion on it is there?

I can illustrate all of the various subcultures I mentioned quite easily - links abound.

But when youre asked to throw up a few pics you got nothing?

Ok grandad. Keep your dentures in.

Rihanna (she’s a pop star) and she’s a big trend setter for young girls. She’s just one example. And there’s the likes of Ariana Grande (pop star) and Kanye West. Taylor swift.

Some of these people have their own fashion brands.

El_Duderino 09

RayCun wrote: »

....... wrote: »

If theres that many girls going around in ripped jeans an belly tops then surely itd be visible in news reports, newspaper images etc?

you've never seen girls/women wearing these?

They already made it clear they don’t keep up with modern fashion or music. It’s probably easier to make broad sweeping conclusions if you don’t know any of the details.

Ragnar Lothbrok

RayCun wrote: »

you've never seen girls/women wearing these?

Again, this totally misses the point :mad:

Ripped jeans DO NOT constitute part of an identifiable subculture! Many people wear ripped jeans, but would have nothing else in common!

What you are saying is that ripped jeans is a common trend and particular style amongst younger (and even some not-so-young) people. I agree with you. But again I have to stress that this does NOT mean that all these people identify as belonging to the same group or subculture!

RayCun

....... wrote: »

What music do girls in ripped jeans and belly tops listen to? What bars are aimed at this subculture? Whats it called?

the point is not that young people are in a ripped jeans subculture, where they listen to ripped jeans music and go to ripped jeans bars. But that they don't actually all dress the same way - people don't have tribal uniforms but they still have distinctive wardrobes.

(that said, I'm sure if you paid attention you'd see that people who liked a particular singer are more likely to wear certain clothes, go to certain shops, hang out in certain areas. But it's all more fluid than it used to be)

Ragnar Lothbrok

It seems as though a few people have difficulty understanding the difference between "style" and "subculture".

These same people then resort to calling others "grandad" when we try to point out the difference :rolleyes:

.......

RayCun wrote: »

you've never seen girls/women wearing these?

But thats not identifying as part of a particular subculture. Lots of people wear ripped jeans and dont identify with any particular set of music/scene. Im not talking about style.

One poster has given a specific example and used a name "Pop Tarts". He said that pop tart girls are wearing ripped jeans and belly tops. He doesnt have any pics or anything to illustrate the subculture.

Im not aware of any ripped jean and belly tops music, bars, or identity. He claims that because I dont notice them I think that they dont exist. So I asked him to show us - but he cant.

If I google pop tart subculture I get a wiki page about a food item.

.......

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

They already made it clear they don’t keep up with modern fashion or music. It’s probably easier to make broad sweeping conclusions if you don’t know any of the details.

You cannot illustrate anything about a supposed subculture that you yourself named and instead call me Grandad?

Way to go with making your point there.

RayCun

Ragnar Lothbrok wrote: »

It seems as though a few people have difficulty understanding the difference between "style" and "subculture".

These same people then resort to calling others "grandad" when we try to point out the difference :rolleyes:

What I'm arguing against is

How self expression and individuality in how you present yourself to the world seems to be gone compared to the recent past.

"Kids today" are not dressing in identikit uniforms, there are distinct trends and styles among different groups.

I agree that there aren't as many/as obvious clearly-defined subcultures, where people dress in a particular way to express their identification with a tribe, which is associated with liking particular music, going to particular pubs, etc, etc. But that doesn't mean people are all a faceless mass either.

(at the same time, I'm sure there are correlations - pick a girl wearing these clothes as opposed to those clothes, and one is more likely to listen to this singer, hang out in this area, follow those people on instagram, etc, etc. But it isn't as obvious, and isn't as strictly policed)

El_Duderino 09

....... wrote: »

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

They already made it clear they don’t keep up with modern fashion or music. It’s probably easier to make broad sweeping conclusions if you don’t know any of the details.

You cannot illustrate anything about a supposed subculture that you yourself named and instead call me Grandad?

Way to go with making your point there.

Go watch some modern music videos. Then go for a walk around somewhere young people go. Town centres, shopping centres, parks. You’ll either be able to distinguish the styles from the music videos or you won’t.

Infernum

I'd still kind of consider myself a goth, although I'm very selective of the days where I decide to don all-black and listen to Asylum Party. And spending a lifetime dwelling on goth-oriented social networking sites convinced me that looking eerily similar to Andrew Eldritch from the Sisters of Mercy is more of a curse than a blessing.

I try not to get too into that stuff when going through bouts of depression because then you start to feel like a blatant stereotype. I have always thought of my goth identity as more about the freedom to be who I am or desire to be, as opposed to wearing black because the people around me suck and I'm full of raging self-loathing and crippling Nietzsche-inspired cynicism all the time... Well, that was very much the case when I was still a teenager, but it's far from the course nowadays.

.......

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Go watch some modern music videos. Then go for a walk around somewhere young people go. Town centres, shopping centres, parks. You’ll either be able to distinguish the styles from the music videos or you won’t.

Are you going to illustrate the "Pop Tart" subculture for us?

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

Ragnar Lothbrok wrote: »

It seems as though a few people have difficulty understanding the difference between "style" and "subculture".

These same people then resort to calling others "grandad" when we try to point out the difference :rolleyes:

"Subculture" doesn't mean "dressing the same as your friends and you all like the same music" though.

There are still subcultures. They're expressed differently than they were 30 years ago. That was also true 30 years ago.

It doesn't mean the kids are all mindless identical conformists, it just means youth culture has changed and evolved.

Ragnar Lothbrok

RayCun wrote: »

What I'm arguing against is



"Kids today" are not dressing in identikit uniforms, there are distinct trends and styles among different groups.

I agree that there aren't as many/as obvious clearly-defined subcultures, where people dress in a particular way to express their identification with a tribe, which is associated with liking particular music, going to particular pubs, etc, etc. But that doesn't mean people are all a faceless mass either.

(at the same time, I'm sure there are correlations - pick a girl wearing these clothes as opposed to those clothes, and one is more likely to listen to this singer, hang out in this area, follow those people on instagram, etc, etc. But it isn't as obvious, and isn't as strictly policed)

Yes...........and that is the point of this whole thread.

OP isn't saying ALL young people dress the same and listen to the same music, what is being argued though is that the far more strictly defined subcultures of the 70s and early 80s seem to have disappeared.

.......

Marie Grumpy Query wrote: »

"Subculture" doesn't mean "dressing the same as your friends and you all like the same music" though.

No - but they are the types of subcultures that I was talking about when I opened the thread.

As I said, maybe I should change the thread title as it seems to be causing confusion.

I thought the examples I opened with would have shown what I was referring to.

But some people seem to think its about style, or wearing clothes from penneys. Its isnt.

RayCun

Ragnar Lothbrok wrote: »

Yes...........and that is the point of this whole thread.

OP isn't saying ALL young people dress the same and listen to the same music, what is being argued though is that the far more strictly defined subcultures of the 70s and early 80s seem to have disappeared.

There's a motte and bailey thing going on here.

The narrow argument is that there are no strictly defined subcultures where a group of people would wear a particular type of clothes, listen to a particular type of music, and go to particular pubs/shops/etc.

The wider argument is that young people don't express their individuality or express themselves any more.

I agree that narrowly defined subcultures are much less visible and obvious today, though I'm sure they exist to a certain extent.

The broader argument I don't agree with at all - and the broader argument has been stated repeatedly -

....... wrote: »

Im more looking at it from the point of individuality and self expression....

But these days I see kids and they all look the same, no one is expressing any individuality or using their hair/clothes/style to express themselves.

....... wrote: »

Is it the net or social media that has brought about this lack of self expression?

....... wrote: »

How self expression and individuality in how you present yourself to the world seems to be gone compared to the recent past.

There is lots of self expression and individuality in how people present themselves to the world. Arguably more than there was in the days of the narrowly-defined subcultures talked about above.

goose2005

LLMMLL wrote: »

Unless my experience is super unique I think people are overestimating the subcultures of the past. I was a teenager in the 90s and in my year we had one goth, a few stonery types, and the rest mainstream. Everyone dressed similarly apart from the goth girl, one of the stoners and another guy who favoured army type gear. In my view, nothing’s changed.

I quite like the men’s look at the moment. That haircut suits a lot of faces, and the tight jeans and trackies can be very flattering. Not a fan of the no socks look either but it’s a minor sin.

Some of ye seem to genuinely believe that your look or attempt at a look was better than the modern kids attempts. The lack of self awareness is astounding.

this is how all views of the past are. If a work is set in the 1920s, every woman is a suffragette flapper. If it's the 60's, everyone is a hippy etc.

Duffy the Vampire Slayer

professore wrote: »

What was bad about it!? It sums up life in a nutshell.

It's a stupid American high school film with annoying characters that people of a certain age treat like it's genius. Personally, I'd rather watch paint dry.