Luas drivers and their lunch

P_1

FTA69 wrote: »

The problem with SIPTU is that they're a hierarchical union geared toward "serving their members" which is a model doomed to failure, the idea that a union is a cash for service in case you're in trouble as opposed to the collective expression of working class people as a whole.

Unions spend too much time worrying about Johnny who crashed his forklift and has a disciplinary and not nearly enough organising new sectors and challenging on pay and conditions across key industrial sectors. Workers have had stagnating pay for years and they've been content to largely sit on their holes.

They've also sought to absolutely sandbag my own union on multiple occasions when we've tried to present a militant challenge to employers so some fat c*nt on 60k a year can preserve his industrial fiefdom.

I've never met a SIPTU organiser who wasn't crap.

What's the union you're involved with out of interest? Usually I'm fiercely independent but your description here has perked my interest. I'd like to read up more on them (and make my own mind up) to see if they would align with my own world views.

FTA69

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Undoubtedly. This Luas case is a perfect example. Common sense has been lost and the trade union mindset of contest and threat is way out of proportion to the core of the issue of lunch breaks.

Unions arose in an environment where the power gap between employees and employers was enormous: employees largely uneducated or even illiterate, a structure of social stratification where the rich were the masters and the poor were to know their place as subservient to them, and an absence of what we know today as all the protections of modern society : equality, employment, health and safety, and remuneration legislation.

But that is all history. Unions are obsolete. But still operate (partly due to inertia, partly due to the instinct of organisations to perpetuate themselves whether needed or not, partly due to there still being a portion of their clientel who have not yet realised that the world has changed from the above) as if this change had not taken place.

And in doing so, are a negative influence on society as a whole, including on those who they purport to represent. Getting lost in a totally out of date mode of thinking, that leads to the ridiculous, such as potentially depriving hundreds of thousands of commuters access to a state facility they have already paid for, because of an argument over how to keep a sandwich cool.

Obsolete my ass. In London a huge proportion of workers work 50 hours a week and live below the poverty line. Most workplaces have had hugely stagnant wages in the face of rising prices and rents. While productivity and profits have soared, workers haven't benefited by and large and inequality is through the roof - a direct correlation with the fall in union density. I've organised workers getting minimum wage and no sick pay for doing dangerous work, and the law provides bugger all protection for workers at large.

At the end of the day, if workers want the best deal on pay and conditions then it stands to logic they get the best result when acting collectively.

I'm organising airport security workers at the moment who get paid less than every other airport in London, their rosters are a joke, they get no shift allowance, auxiliary security get paid less than the London Living Wage and have no sick pay. The company has pre tax profits of £32m per annum with a CEO on £520k a year. When the workers individually asked for a pay rise they were told p*ss off.

Now we're organised and set to put in a pay claim for parity and decent conditions. Those workers certainly don't think what they're doing is obsolete,

FTA69

P_1 wrote: »

What's the union you're involved with out of interest? Usually I'm fiercely independent but your description here has perked my interest. I'd like to read up more on them (and make my own mind up) to see if they would align with my own world views.

Unite.

And also a smaller Latin American union in London called United Voices of the World, look them up they're great.

The incident I'm referring to above with SIPTU happened when Unite crane drivers organised for a pay rise and they were calling on other workers to cross the picket as well as demanding that ICTU force the crane drivers to join SIPTU instead of us, against the wishes of those workers.

P_1

FTA69 wrote: »

Unite.

And also a smaller Latin American union in London called United Voices of the World, look them up they're great.

The incident I'm referring to above with SIPTU happened when Unite crane drivers organised for a pay rise and they were calling on other workers to cross the picket as well as demanding that ICTU force the crane drivers to join SIPTU instead of us, against the wishes of those workers.

Thanks, that's this evenings light reading sorted.

Bloody hell that is disgraceful. Havent they tried a similar stunt with ESB workers lately too?

FTA69

P_1 wrote: »

Thanks, that's this evenings light reading sorted.

Bloody hell that is disgraceful. Havent they tried a similar stunt with ESB workers lately too?

I used to be a SIPTU rep as well when I was a young lad. My own union is massively and has systematic problems and institutional issues as well, I tear my hair out every day. But there's at least a vague culture of "the union movement is in difficulty, workers are losing out massively and we have to fight and organise and democraticise". In SIPTU they think everything is f*cking gravy and their sole job is to do individual grievances or attack other unions who are a threat to their bloated mess.

Zero internal democracy either.

P_1

FTA69 wrote: »

I used to be a SIPTU rep as well when I was a young lad. My own union is massively and has systematic problems and institutional issues as well, I tear my hair out every day. But there's at least a vague culture of "the union movement is in difficulty, workers are losing out massively and we have to fight and organise and democraticise". In SIPTU they think everything is f*cking gravy and their sole job is to do individual grievances or attack other unions who are a threat to their bloated mess.

Zero internal democracy either.

Are UNITE organised here too then? I always assumed they were a UK specific union.

The Rape of Lucretia

And when the discussion tangents off into the internal wranglings of the various unions, the competition for, and migration of subscribers, and a navel gazing discussion on their mission, it is clear that they are a long way from their original forming purpose. Rather, engaged in an existential crisis, that warps any accurate perspective on matters they are simultaneously trying to handle for what remains of their membership.

P_1

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

And when the discussion tangents off into the internal wranglings of the various unions, the competition for, and migration of subscribers, and a navel gazing discussion on their mission, it is clear that they are a long way from their original forming purpose. Rather, engaged in an existential crisis, that warps any accurate perspective on matters they are simultaneously trying to handle for what remains of their membership.

I'd disagree with that tbh. To me the issue seems to be some unions stuck in 1970s thinking and refusing to evolve with the times. Some seem to be. I think its clear that SIPTU are not, and given their membership, that is an issue for the rest of us

Steviesol

Sack every single on of them who takes issue over their lunch.

FTA69

P_1 wrote: »

Are UNITE organised here too then? I always assumed they were a UK specific union.

They're organised in Ireland but are much smaller in the south.

FTA69

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

And when the discussion tangents off into the internal wranglings of the various unions, the competition for, and migration of subscribers, and a navel gazing discussion on their mission, it is clear that they are a long way from their original forming purpose. Rather, engaged in an existential crisis, that warps any accurate perspective on matters they are simultaneously trying to handle for what remains of their membership.

The original purpose of unions was a body that represent the material interests of workers as a class. That is needed now more than ever. You were just saying that in an era of stagnating wages in the face of soaring profits and productivity that collective bargaining is obsolete.

Fair enough if you don't like unions or the concept behind workers getting a fair deal, but don't be giving us guff that because a debate is being had about how some in the union movement view things that the whole idea of workers joining together is somehow made redundant.

Avatar MIA

It's like a certain poster thinks they're back in secondary school and forced to defend a position in a debate. :rolleyes:

In time when certain positions are being automated those tasked with implementing will refer back to this Luas drivers grievance as a case in point.

jimmynokia

2smiggy wrote: »

apparently cooler bags not good enough, SIPTU running a risk assessment on them. They seem to work well enough for any normal person that drives for a living. Are SIPTU running out of things to complain about to justify their existence ?

link

Pedantic clowns

FTA69

You can automate the trains all day long it won't make a difference, you'll still need someone on board the train and that person will be trained and hard to replace. Automation is prevalent in French rail as well, hasn't stopped them going on strike.

The actual driving of a train is only a small part of the operation, you can't automate the other stuff they're trained to do. As a mate of mine said to someone on a picket line at Waterloo who was goading the workers about automation;

"Good luck getting a f*cking ticket machine who will pull you out of the burning station or a robot that'll lead you out of a tube tunnell"

Idbatterim

FTA69 wrote: »

You can automate the trains all day long it won't make a difference, you'll still need someone on board the train and that person will be trained and hard to replace. Automation is prevalent in French rail as well, hasn't stopped them going on strike.

The actual driving of a train is only a small part of the operation, you can't automate the other stuff they're trained to do. As a mate of mine said to someone on a picket line at Waterloo who was goading the workers about automation;

"Good luck getting a f*cking ticket machine who will pull you out of the burning station or a robot that'll lead you out of a tube tunnell"

Automaton can massively reduce the amount of human workers needed. The new Metrolink they are now planning, is to be driverless I believe...

FTA69

Idbatterim wrote: »

Automaton can massively reduce the amount of human workers needed. The new Metrolink they are now planning, is to be driverless I believe...

I know it can, the DLR here is driverless but you still need someone on it and the train can't run without that person.

They still go on strike from time to time.

lawred2

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

I haven't seen that poster around much since they were on the losing side of the abortion referendum.

eotr?

Avatar MIA

FTA69 wrote: »

"Good luck getting a f*cking ticket machine who will pull you out of the burning station or a robot that'll lead you out of a tube tunnell"

I'm sure it was a big hit with his co-workers, hardly Mel Gibson's 'they may take our lives...' speech but rousing all the same. And, as you'll imagine, irrelevant to an over ground system like the Luas.

I think you are underestimating the way automated technology is going. They won't be manned. And no one will shed a tear for the Luas driver.

frag420

magentis wrote: »

Do you honestly expect a high level of intelligence from the anti public sector neckbearded mouthbreathers?

Its because of that high level of intelligence that they are not sitting in a cab playing grown up scaelectrix on the streets of Dublin moaning about sandwiches!

FTA69

Avatar MIA wrote: »

I'm sure it was a big hit with his co-workers, hardly Mel Gibson's 'they may take our lives...' speech but rousing all the same. And, as you'll imagine, irrelevant to an over ground system like the Luas.

I think you are underestimating the way automated technology is going. They won't be manned. And no one will shed a tear for the Luas driver.

I'm familiar enough with it as part of my job. As I said, the DLR here is driverless but it still needs to be manned. I'm sure that will eventually change over time but the idea that the type of automation that will end industrial disputes is only a couple of years around the corner isn't the case.

suicide_circus

will we all be happier when everything is fully automated and our kids are all unemployed?

frag420

suicide_circus wrote: »

will we all be happier when everything is fully automated and our kids are all unemployed?

I want my kids to study hard and get a degree or more so that they can design and build those robots instead of having to make up sh1t arguments about their lunch to make themselves look big and important!

Maybe you should encourage the same of your kids?

FTA69

frag420 wrote: »

I want my kids to study hard and get a degree or more so that they can design and build those robots instead of having to make up sh1t arguments about their lunch to make themselves look big and important!

Maybe you should encourage the same of your kids?

It'll probably other robots that will design the robots lad. If you think only the blue collar types are going to suffer from automation you're codding yourself. Everything from lawyers to accountants to doctors to bankers are all under threat of being automated. It's a major issue post-industrial capitalism is going to have to face.

Wanderer78

FTA69 wrote:

It'll probably other robots that will design the robots lad. If you think only the blue collar types are going to suffer from automation you're codding yourself. Everything from lawyers to accountants to doctors to bankers are all under threat of being automated. It's a major issue post-industrial capitalism is going to have to face.

We better start figuring out how to distribute wealth more evenly, or you can kiss this planet goodbye

Avatar MIA

suicide_circus wrote: »

will we all be happier when everything is fully automated and our kids are all unemployed?

All those poor people that lost their farm jobs when farm mechanisation occurred.

Jobs change, people adapt. Automation has been very good for workers.

Turnipman

magentis wrote: »

Turnipman.

What an apt username.

Most usernames are apt. Would I be correct to assume that yours is a poorly spelt anagram of smegma?

Avatar MIA

Wanderer78 wrote: »

We better start figuring out how to distribute wealth more evenly, or you can kiss this planet goodbye

Nyet, comrade.

FTA69

Avatar MIA wrote: »

All those poor people that lost their farm jobs when farm mechanisation occurred.

Jobs change, people adapt. Automation has been very good for workers.

Previous technological advances did cost jobs but also resulted in the creation of economic expansion that resulted in huge increases in other types of employment, the railway being a classic example. However what we are seeing now is not the net creation of jobs, but falling numbers of jobs in the face of a rising population. The jobs that are being created are also of poor quality and precarious nature. The idea of technological advances leading to less jobs is a reality now, and one unprecedented in the history of capitalism.

We face major social and economic strife ahead, hence all the talk about basic income and all that jazz.

Wanderer78

Avatar MIA wrote:

Nyet, comrade.

Plenty of research pouring in now showing the rapid rise in inequality, we is in trouble, and history shows, when humans get pissed, we tend to get shooty and bomby

mcginty28

Idbatterim wrote:

Automaton can massively reduce the amount of human workers needed. The new Metrolink they are now planning, is to be driverless I believe...

automated luas will not work through the streets of Dublin. most problems encountered that a driver deals with are antisocial behaviour, doors obstructed / broken that a driver may physically have to try rectify. junctions blocked by traffic with tram then stuck in junction after lights have changed for other traffic. kids separated from guardians, passenger illness & accident. Will work on a metro or underground that's not negotiating other traffic but luas will need a driver.

Avatar MIA

FTA69 wrote: »

Previous technological advances did cost jobs but also resulted in the creation of economic expansion that resulted in huge increases in other types of employment, the railway being a classic example. However what we are seeing now is not the net creation of jobs, but falling numbers of jobs in the face of a rising population. The jobs that are being created are also of poor quality and precarious nature. The idea of technological advances leading to less jobs is a reality now, and one unprecedented in the history of capitalism.

We face major social and economic strife ahead, hence all the talk about basic income and all that jazz.

We're near full employment in this country, and the highest number of employees ever. People fear change at first, such as rural electrification.

A vast number of high paying jobs in the tech industry didn't exist 30 years ago. There will be a lot of jobs in the future that have not been invented yet.

Avatar MIA

mcginty28 wrote: »

automated luas will not work through the streets of Dublin. most problems encountered that a driver deals with are antisocial behaviour, doors obstructed / broken that a driver may physically have to try rectify. junctions blocked by traffic with tram then stuck in junction after lights have changed for other traffic. kids separated from guardians, passenger illness & accident. Will work on a metro or underground that's not negotiating other traffic but luas will need a driver.

The only problem I see above that would cause a problem is the blocked doors, which may require passengers that want to continue their journey to clear the doors.

Shenshen

mcginty28 wrote: »

automated luas will not work through the streets of Dublin. most problems encountered that a driver deals with are antisocial behaviour, doors obstructed / broken that a driver may physically have to try rectify. junctions blocked by traffic with tram then stuck in junction after lights have changed for other traffic. kids separated from guardians, passenger illness & accident. Will work on a metro or underground that's not negotiating other traffic but luas will need a driver.

So... There won't be any anti-social behaviour, broken or obstructed doors, sick passengers or lost children underground?

mcginty28

Avatar MIA wrote:

The only problem I see above that would cause a problem is the blocked doors, which may require passengers that want to continue their journey to clear the doors.

the door usually has to be reset with a key or locked out if it doesn't reset so not gonna happen with passengers.

Avatar MIA

mcginty28 wrote: »

the door usually has to be reset with a key or locked out if it doesn't reset so not gonna happen with passengers.

So.... they'll have to... come on, work with me... You can do it.

mcginty28

Shenshen wrote:

So... There won't be any anti-social behaviour, broken or obstructed doors, sick passengers or lost children underground?

of courses, customer service staff could deal with these issues to, I said a driver was needed for the luas through the streets of Dublin.

Turnipman

Avatar MIA wrote: »

A vast number of high paying jobs in the tech industry didn't exist 30 years ago. There will be a lot of jobs in the future that have not been invented yet.

Exactly. To give one example, I predict a massive increase in employment in the Irish refugee/economic migrant processing sector over the next couple of decades.

JustJoe7240

mcginty28 wrote: »

automated luas will not work through the streets of Dublin. most problems encountered that a driver deals with are antisocial behaviour, doors obstructed / broken that a driver may physically have to try rectify. junctions blocked by traffic with tram then stuck in junction after lights have changed for other traffic. kids separated from guardians, passenger illness & accident. Will work on a metro or underground that's not negotiating other traffic but luas will need a driver.

Most of these issues can be rectified by security or revenue protection officers bar the junction issues, which could be sorted with sensors

Avatar MIA

Shenshen wrote: »

So... There won't be any anti-social behaviour, broken or obstructed doors, sick passengers or lost children underground?

Antisocial behaviour - what exactly does the driver currently do? Do they intervene, the same crowd complaining about lunches?

Sick Passengers - are Luas drives trained medics? No.

Missing kids, and the two above can be monitored from a control centre.

mcginty28

Avatar MIA wrote:

So.... they'll have to... come on, work with me... You can do it.

give everybody a key, now I get you .

Shenshen

mcginty28 wrote: »

of courses, customer service staff could deal with these issues to, I said a driver was needed for the luas through the streets of Dublin.

You did, but you didn't say why they would be required when they're no longer required in Stockholm, for example. Stockholm is in the process of launching driverless busses.

mcginty28

JustJoe7240 wrote:

Most of these issues can be rectified by security or revenue protection officers bar the junction issues, which could be sorted with sensors

sensors lol, you must have never been stuck on a tram at amien st for 10 mins after been blocked by traffic multiple times. the lights barely work as they should and regularly fail, don't think sensors will do it. maybe remove all traffic from the city or luas track might be a starting point for driverless trams.

Avatar MIA

Shenshen wrote: »

You did, but you didn't say why they would be required when they're no love Niger required in Stockholm, for example. Stockholm is in the process of launching driverless busses.

Edit incoming :pac:

Avatar MIA

mcginty28 wrote: »

sensors lol, you must have never been stuck on a tram at amien st for 10 mins after been blocked by traffic multiple times. the lights barely work as they should and regularly fail, don't think sensors will do it. maybe remove all traffic from the city or luas track might be a starting point for driverless trams.

No, you make an absolute example of the first fool to block the tram, impound their car, fine them €1,000 and put their face up on the 6 o'clock news.

Besides, what currently happens?

Shenshen

Avatar MIA wrote: »

Edit incoming :pac:

Thanks! I'm on a sh*tty iPad, the predictive text is seriously messed up

mcginty28

Shenshen wrote:

You did, but you didn't say why they would be required when they're no love Niger required in Stockholm, for example. Stockholm is in the process of launching driverless busses.

just can't see it working unless maybe all private traffic is removed from the city, we have too many cars breaking lights , sitting in yellow boxes blocking the system. pedestrians being hit , junkies and drunks lying in front of trams. the system would constantly be stopped, more than it is now . It's a pity really cause most of the muppets driving them would struggle to find work elsewhere!

Avatar MIA

mcginty28 wrote: »

just can't see it working unless maybe all private traffic is removed from the city, we have too many cars breaking lights , sitting in yellow boxes blocking the system. pedestrians being hit , junkies and drunks lying in front of trams. the system would constantly be stopped, more than it is now . It's a pity really cause most of the muppets driving them would struggle to find work elsewhere!

I don't follow, what does the driver actually do to solve the issues you raise?

mcginty28

Avatar MIA wrote:

No, you make an absolute example of the first fool to block the tram, impound their car, fine them €1,000 and put their face up on the 6 o'clock news.

Avatar MIA wrote:

No, you make an absolute example of the first fool to block the tram, impound their car, fine them €1,000 and put their face up on the 6 o'clock news.

yeah that's really gonna happen , guards don't want to know half the time ffs. amien st beside store st station and is known for traffic violations and delays to the system and nowhere to be seen. have a look at it some evening when everyone is trying to get out of the city after work! 6 o'clock news lol we can't even inform people of paedos living beside them!!

Avatar MIA

mcginty28 wrote: »

yeah that's really gonna happen , guards don't want to know half the time ffs. amien st beside store st station and is known for traffic violations and delays to the system and nowhere to be seen. have a look at it some evening when everyone is trying to get out of the city after work! 6 o'clock news lol we can't even inform people of paedos living beside them!!

Vote Avatar MIA for Taoiseach! :pac:

Where there's a will there's a way.

mcginty28

Avatar MIA wrote:

I don't follow, what does the driver actually do to solve the issues you raise?

drives through everything to get to the depot on time so his sandwich is fresh.