EU to recommend abolishing DST

facehugger99

facehugger99 wrote: »

It's dark in the mornings anyway, who cares if it's dark an extra hour. Most people are in work by that stage anyway.

An hour of extra brightness in the evenings would be far more beneficial to most people's mental well-being.

I hate waking up when it's still dark!
I used to work out in Dublin and driving all the way there in darkness was really depressing.

Andy From Sligo

Mountainsandh wrote: »

... Not good for mental health imo.
Gets me very down in the dumps anyway, especially on really grey days...

have you thought about changing every bulb in your house for Daylight compact fluorescent bulbs and leaving them on all day inside your house in the winter months ? - have heard it helps some people

Andy From Sligo

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

have you thought about changing every bulb in your house for Daylight compact fluorescent bulbs and leaving them on all day inside your house in the winter months ? - have heard it helps some people

There are several LED "daylight" lights available now as well, some even can simulate sunrise & sunset.

Mountainsandh

I have a SAD lamp and I use it, and try and ensure i make use of that precious bit of daylight in the evenings.

Mountainsandh

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

if it was experimented/tried before then in the 60's and never worked out , what makes people think it will work out these days?

It's not about "working out" really, it's more about what people prefer.
'Times they are changing, and while people in the 60s might still have included a lot of farmers and outdoor workers who would prefer light in the mornings, today's demographics are probably more indoor bound, and value their personal time after work more.
It would be interesting to get a vote on this nowadays.

Ireland in winter is always gonna be a challenge imo, especially for anyone prone to SAD.

mollser

These bright mornings are fantastic now the clocks have gone back! You can get up and on with things now, cycling walking the dog golf etc.

The balance we have now is fine. So much more important for mental health to be waking up with daylight.

It's for people who get up in the mornings and get on with things. I really don't see how people think the extra hour in the evening is going to make a difference to their lives. It will still be dark at 5.30 in December anyway, not like 8!

Also keeping summer time means the school kids won't be able to get their half hour play outside for about 3 months of the year. That would be so unfair on them.

The morning brightness is crucial. Leave as is.

judeboy101

potential problem arises if you have to wake up before the sun rises. Your melatonin isn't suppressed, and the cortisol hasn't had a chance to rise high enough — both of which make it really hard to wake up. That can lead to grogginess and moodiness for hours. Primary and secondary students would suffer due to low concentration levels. Anyone here with kids esp teenagers know the pain of getting them up for school in dead of winter. At 2nd and 3rd level exams that take place in Dec/jan produce statistically lower results than similar tests in summer

whisky_galore

Just do away with it already, but needs to be EU wide.

I know there will be the usual 'ah shur think of the kids'...most of them aren't even walking to school anymore and playing computer games indoors.

Supercell

mollser wrote: »

These bright mornings are fantastic now the clocks have gone back! You can get up and on with things now, cycling walking the dog golf etc.

The balance we have now is fine. So much more important for mental health to be waking up with daylight.

It's for people who get up in the mornings and get on with things. I really don't see how people think the extra hour in the evening is going to make a difference to their lives. It will still be dark at 5.30 in December anyway, not like 8!

Also keeping summer time means the school kids won't be able to get their half hour play outside for about 3 months of the year. That would be so unfair on them.

The morning brightness is crucial. Leave as is.

Some of have to work in the mornings in offices you know, should we sacrifice our evening brightness for those lucky enough not to have to work so they can go golfing and walking the hounds in the mornings?
My kids run around outside after school with their pals and get play time during school in the mornings just fine??

facehugger99

mollser wrote: »

These bright mornings are fantastic now the clocks have gone back! You can get up and on with things now, cycling walking the dog golf etc.

The balance we have now is fine. So much more important for mental health to be waking up with daylight.

It's for people who get up in the mornings and get on with things. I really don't see how people think the extra hour in the evening is going to make a difference to their lives. It will still be dark at 5.30 in December anyway, not like 8!

Also keeping summer time means the school kids won't be able to get their half hour play outside for about 3 months of the year. That would be so unfair on them.

The morning brightness is crucial. Leave as is.

Sun doesn’t rise until 8.30 once it hits December. Great that you have the luxury of getting up in brightness but it’s not how most people live.

The extra hour of brightness is basicaly wasted when most people are getting ready for work or sitting at their desks.

An extra hour in the evening is a no brainer for most of the working population who pay all the bills in this country. It’d be nice to think their concerns were put first for a change, but this is Ireland so I won’t get my hopes up.

mollser

Supercell wrote: »

Some of have to work in the mornings in offices you know, should we sacrifice our evening brightness for those lucky enough not to have to work so they can go golfing and walking the hounds in the mornings?
My kids run around outside after school with their pals and get play time during school in the mornings just fine??

Yes, I work in an office starting at 8.30am until about 6. Much better to be going in to work in daylight, at least you get to wake up and see a bit of daylight every day. Keeping summer time means nearly all office workers won't get to see any daylight.

mollser

Supercell wrote: »

Some of have to work in the mornings in offices you know, should we sacrifice our evening brightness for those lucky enough not to have to work so they can go golfing and walking the hounds in the mornings?
My kids run around outside after school with their pals and get play time during school in the mornings just fine??

What evening brightness are you sacrificing though? Assuming you leave the office at 5 commute for half hour, then it's half five. It's going to be dark then anyway! This doesn't magically make it bright until 7pm every night you know!

Funny I always thought this push to keep summer time was coming from the layabout contribute nothing gang who have no reason to be up in the morning. I didn't realise it was supported by hard working folk. I find it hard to believe that anyone in farming or construction, for example, think it's a good idea to have darker mornings?

Fr Tod Umptious

mollser wrote: »

What evening brightness are you sacrificing though? Assuming you leave the office at 5 commute for half hour, then it's half five. It's going to be dark then anyway! This doesn't magically make it bright until 7pm every night you know!

Funny I always thought this push to keep summer time was coming from the layabout contribute nothing gang who have no reason to be up in the morning. I didn't realise it was supported by hard working folk. I find it hard to believe that anyone in farming or construction, for example, think it's a good idea to have darker mornings?

I think lot of people don't realise how all year summer time will work out.

The hoped for extra hour in the evenings will not be as beneficial as expected as the weather will be poor anyway and the mornings will absolutely suck as it will not be getting bright till close on 10am as the weather will be poor anyway.

This was an EU wide survey/consultation.
The majority of the EU population live further south than us where the swings in daylight are not as exterm as here or in the Nordic or Baltic states.

It does not effect them as much as us. I'm delighted the government have opened their own consultation on this.

prunudo

facehugger99 wrote: »

An extra hour in the evening is a no brainer for most of the working population who pay all the bills in this country. It’d be nice to think their concerns were put first for a change, but this is Ireland so I won’t get my hopes up.

What about all the construction workers and other people who work outside and rely on daylight, do they not pay bills and deserve the day light too. If it remains on summertime it will be dark until past 9am in both December and January. Thats east coast, be worse west coast.

Oh, i hear you say, sure they can work later in the evenings, well thanks for that, now we won't get home an hour later and not see our families for an hour later or go on walks with the dogs. But its okay the folks in the offices keep the country going.

mollser

jvan wrote: »

What about all the construction workers and other people who work outside and rely on daylight, do they not pay bills and deserve the day light too. If it remains on summertime it will be dark until past 9am in both December and January. Thats east coast, be worse west coast.

Oh, i hear you say, sure they can work later in the evenings, well thanks for that, now we won't get home an hour later and not see our families for an hour later or go on walks with the dogs. But its okay the folks in the offices keep the country going.

Agreed, most office workers should be of the same view as well. Really, the only people who should be against retaining the status quo are layabouts!

P_1

jvan wrote: »

What about all the construction workers and other people who work outside and rely on daylight, do they not pay bills and deserve the day light too. If it remains on summertime it will be dark until past 9am in both December and January. Thats east coast, be worse west coast.

Oh, i hear you say, sure they can work later in the evenings, well thanks for that, now we won't get home an hour later and not see our families for an hour later or go on walks with the dogs. But its okay the folks in the offices keep the country going.

We get 7 and a half hours of daylight in the depths of winter. Doesnt matter which way you cut it you'll have to either start or end in the dark.

I'd rather we had the light time at the end of the day we spend slaving away for capitalism.

In November and February the extra hour of light will be of benefit to many. Given our latitude December and January are a writeoff anyway

Cork Boy 53

SPDUB wrote: »

Postmen as well , and as I know personally from a couple of years back, it is surprisingly difficult to read addresses on post in the dark .

Have you not heard of torches/flashlights? Brilliant invention.

prunudo

P_1 wrote: »

We get 7 and a half hours of daylight in the depths of winter. Doesnt matter which way you cut it you'll have to either start or end in the dark.

I'd rather we had the light time at the end of the day we spend slaving away for capitalism.

In November and February the extra hour of light will be of benefit to many. Given our latitude December and January are a writeoff anyway

I suppose its swings and roundabouts really and will come down to presonal situations, working outside I'd much prefer the extra hour in the morning as it is with the current set up.
A lot easier starting the working day with it getting brighter. By the time you come back after the Christmas holidays there's already a ten minute stretch in the evening's while the mornings haven't noticeably changed at all (actually 2 min later sunrise than the solstice, doesn't start reducing till about 3rd Jan ).

I just urge anybody who wants all year summertime to actually notice how late it stays dark in the mornings this winter, add an hour to the time and see if its really what you want.

Franz Von Peppercorn

mollser wrote: »

Agreed, most office workers should be of the same view as well. Really, the only people who should be against retaining the status quo are layabouts!

Most office workers would prefer light at night. I don’t know what layabouts have to do with it. The options here are no summer time (which means sunsets at 8 pm in May, early June and most of July. 7pm in April and May and late August thus destroying one of the few good things about the Irish summer - long days) or later sunrises in Dec/Jan.

Neither option is great. This is actually why it’s a stupid change and we should keep the time change. Or reduce the winter time to 2-3 months. What is the EU playing at.

facehugger99

I would be ok with Winter time if it was only for a couple of months. It's absolutely crazy that we stick with dark evenings until late March.
5 months of the year!

Marhay70

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

Most office workers would prefer light at night. I don’t know what layabouts have to do with it. The options here are no summer time (which means sunsets at 8 pm in May, early June and most of July. 7pm in April and May and late August thus destroying one of the few good things about the Irish summer - long days) or later sunrises in Dec/Jan.

Neither option is great. This is actually why it’s a stupid change and we should keep the time change. Or reduce the winter time to 2-3 months. What is the EU playing at.

I could never understand why the clocks went back less than two months before the shortest day but didn't go forward until more than three months after the shortest day. Presumably day length in November and February are comparable.
No doubt someone will have an answer

dxhound2005

Everyone can have their say in the consultation process.

https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/Consultation_on_Seasonal_Clock_Changes

The EU Commission consultation had 4 million responses, with 80% opting for a system of the same time all year.

Andy From Sligo

Cork Boy 53 wrote: »

Have you not heard of torches/flashlights? Brilliant invention.

those LED headlamps are great invention ... leave both hands free

Franz Von Peppercorn

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Everyone can have their say in the consultation process.

https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/Consultation_on_Seasonal_Clock_Changes

The EU Commission consultation had 4 million responses, with 80% opting for a system of the same time all year.

An internet survey is self selecting. I didn’t know about it until now.

bnt

I wrote a post earlier about the difference between Irish time and "solar" time, but it was too simplistic, so I went and got some actual data (from here) to see what sunrise and sunset times actually look like.

I've attached a spreadsheet with the UTC sunrise and sunset times for Dublin for the second half of this year - UTC meaning as if there was no daylight savings time. If you want to see what permanent DST would look like, just add 1 hour to all sunrise and sunset times. For Cork or Galway, subtract 10 minutes for approximate numbers, more or less depending how far west you are from Dublin. Some observations:

• Without DST, the Sun rises at 4AM on the first of July - which is very close to the earliest for the year - and sets just before 9PM (10PM on DST).
• The latest sunrise is on 29 December, at 08:40: permanent +1 DST would make that 09:40.
• Solar noon - when the Sun is overhead - is always after noon UTC, because Dublin is west of Greenwich. The average is about 12:20, meaning Dublin is approx. 20 minutes away from GMT on average. (It varies because of the varying inclination of the Earth.) Other parts of the country are further away.

Because of Ireland's position, to me it looks like neither UTC nor DST are quite right for a fixed time zone. Without DST it gets light too early in summer; with DST, it gets light too late in winter. On average, Ireland is closer to half an hour away from UTC on average, so I think Ireland should consider setting Irish Standard Time at 30 minutes behind UTC. This is not as crazy as it sounds, and is already being done e.g. India is 5:30 ahead, Venezuela used to be 4:30 behind but changed in 2016.

Franz Von Peppercorn

Yes. I suggested gmt + 30 earlier on. Dublin mean time was +25.

That would leave a 9:25 pm sunset in summer and the latest sunrise is 9:20.

Even better though to keep the changes but reduce winter time to 2-3 months.

Btw i believe the earliest sunset is jan 3rd. It might also be 8:40.

P_1

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

Yes. I suggested gmt + 30 earlier on. Dublin mean time was +25.

That would leave a 9:25 pm sunset in summer and the latest sunrise is 9:20.

Even better though to keep the changes but reduce winter time to 2-3 months.

Btw i believe the earliest sunset is jan 3rd. It might also be 8:40.

How practical is that for business and the like mind? Most irish business ties in with the UK. I'm not sure how being 30 mins out of step would work with that. Throw in the curveball of dundalk being 30 minutes out of sync with newry time wise yet only 10km away distance wise

Elmer Blooker

facehugger99 wrote: »

I would be ok with Winter time if it was only for a couple of months. It's absolutely crazy that we stick with dark evenings until late March.
5 months of the year!

Dark evenings in late March? The sun sets at 18.45 in late March before the clocks go forward so hardly dark?

Bring on the darker and colder mornings I say, it will be great fun to listen to all moaning and whinging about the gridlock in urban areas as inevitably those who leave their cars at home will no longer cycle, walk or get the bus. Most schools in my area are walking distance, the darker and colder mornings will mean these kids will be driven to school instead - even more traffic!
I look forward to the chaos, we will get what we deserve!

bnt

P_1 wrote: »

How practical is that for business and the like mind? Most irish business ties in with the UK. I'm not sure how being 30 mins out of step would work with that. Throw in the curveball of dundalk being 30 minutes out of sync with newry time wise yet only 10km away distance wise

They'd get used to it - it's not much different to dealing with Central Europe or India. If business was the primary concern, then the whole of Europe including the UK should be on one time zone. That's what they do in China, for the convenience of the government and business, not the people.

ForestFire

P_1 wrote: »

How practical is that for business and the like mind? Most irish business ties in with the UK. I'm not sure how being 30 mins out of step would work with that. Throw in the curveball of dundalk being 30 minutes out of sync with newry time wise yet only 10km away distance wise

Spain and Portugal, 5 time zones across USA and Australia, including some on a 30min difference, plenty of examples where this is not an issue.

I'm sure Dundalk and Newry will be fine.