EU to recommend abolishing DST

prunudo

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

A good post if I may say so.
The earth is round, the sun rises later as you move west and that's why we have time zones, its as simple as that. Have these Brussels bureaucrats nothing better to do than tell us the earth is flat? The USA can function economically on different time zones and so can Europe which it has done since we joined the EU in 1973.

I have no idea whatsoever why some want kids to go to school in the dark when as things stand they go to school in daylight and come home in daylight.
Isn't asking people the question 'do you want brighter evenings' a bit loaded? Of course everyone will say yes as it is tempting when put that way. Who is going to say no? Why not ask people 'do you want darker mornings' as I have been doing lately ..... the answer is 100% NO.

After listening to a topic on today fm this morning I'm of the belief that certain people (not on this thread) beleive that the actually number of hours of daylight change when they turn the clocks forward/back.
The topic was about how they couldn't understand how it was possible to have Christmas day and New years day in the same year, mind blown by this witchcraft!

VinLieger

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

A good post if I may say so.
The earth is round, the sun rises later as you move west and that's why we have time zones, its as simple as that. Have these Brussels bureaucrats nothing better to do than tell us the earth is flat? The USA can function economically on different time zones and so can Europe which it has done since we joined the EU in 1973.

Nobody is suggesting we go onto the same timezone as the EU so stop making stuff up, the suggestion is do we want to stop needlessly changing our clocks twice a year.

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

I have no idea whatsoever why some want kids to go to school in the dark when as things stand they go to school in daylight and come home in daylight.
Isn't asking people the question 'do you want brighter evenings' a bit loaded? Of course everyone will say yes as it is tempting when put that way. Who is going to say no? Why not ask people 'do you want darker mornings' as I have been doing lately ..... the answer is 100% NO.

The kids argument has been debunked, move on. They go to school in the dark for many weeks of the year as it is dark during October and once December hits its dark again by 8am when many kids are leaving the house.


However if you want to go with the kids argument, how about they have more time to play outside in the evening's instead of sitting in watching tv and playing games which we are always being told is making them fat and lazy so it is undoubtedly a far better use of the hour.

VinLieger

jvan wrote: »

After listening to a topic on today fm this morning I'm of the belief that certain people (not on this thread) beleive that the actually number of hours of daylight change when they turn the clocks forward/back.

Yeah its confusing, it needs to be explained that the number of hours of USEABLE daylight changes.



For instance if we stuck with winter time then during Summer the sun would rise at 4am instead of 5am as it does now which effectively moves 1 hour of daylight earlier and makes it unusable by the vast majority, as the sun would set earlier at 9pm instead of 10pm making our summer evenings shorter.

Elmer Blooker

VinLieger wrote: »

Nobody is suggesting we go onto the same timezone as the EU so stop making stuff up, the suggestion is do we want to stop needlessly changing our clocks twice a year.

The kids argument has been debunked, move on. They go to school in the dark for many weeks of the year as it is dark during October and once December hits its dark again by 8am when many kids are leaving the house.

However if you want to go with the kids argument, how about they have more time to play outside in the evening's instead of sitting in watching tv and playing games which we are always being told is making them fat and lazy so it is undoubtedly a far better use of the hour.

The EU 'recommends'. I won't argue the difference between 'recommends' and 'suggesting'

It isn't dark in October before the clocks change so stop making stuff up.
It is bright at 8am.

Its a bit of a generalisation saying that all kids want to play outside at 5pm in Dec and Jan, and then theres the weather .....

irelandrover

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

The EU 'recommends'. I won't argue the difference between 'recommends' and 'suggesting'

It isn't dark in October before the clocks change so stop making stuff up.
It is bright at 8am.

Its a bit of a generalisation saying that all kids want to play outside at 5pm in Dec and Jan, and then theres the weather .....

No-one is suggesting/ recommending that we go to the same timezone as Europe.
They are suggesting/ recommending that we stop daylight savings time.

2 different issues.

Elmer Blooker

irelandrover wrote: »

No-one is suggesting/ recommending that we go to the same timezone as Europe.
They are suggesting/ recommending that we stop daylight savings time.

2 different issues.

'Saving' daylight is a myth, the amount of light we receive at 53 degrees north is the same whether we change the clocks or not. Lets not forget that this country with almost non existent public transport and a dependency on the car is asking for big trouble if we are foolish enough to want even darker mornings. Those who walk, cycle or use our creaking public transport system will go back to using their cars as the mornings will not only be darker but obviously colder with the later sunrise.
I would give it a year.

facehugger99

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

'Saving' daylight is a myth, the amount of light we receive at 53 degrees north is the same whether we change the clocks or not.

Keep on strawmaning :rolleyes:

Cee-Jay-Cee

Cork Boy 53 wrote: »

What about dusk at 9pm or so in mid summer which is what would happen if we had all year round winter time? Would that not also cause issues to these young brains you refer to?

Staying on permanent winter time has never been discussed or included as an option so why bring that up??? The question being asked is we should continue as we are at the moment and change the clocks twice a year or remain on summer time all year round. Keep with the program, please. :rolleyes:

irelandrover

Cee-Jay-Cee wrote: »

Staying on permanent winter time has never been discussed or included as an option so why bring that up??? The question being asked is we should continue as we are at the moment and change the clocks twice a year or remain on summer time all year round. Keep with the program, please. :rolleyes:

It was an option.

If the switching were to be abolished, what option would you prefer? To abolish the switching and stick
with:
permanent summertime (clocks are advanced one hour compared to wintertime)
permanent wintertime
no opinion / I don't know

Elmer Blooker

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

'Saving' daylight is a myth, the amount of light we receive at 53 degrees north is the same whether we change the clocks or not. Lets not forget that this country with almost non existent public transport and a dependency on the car is asking for big trouble if we are foolish enough to want even darker mornings. Those who walk, cycle or use our creaking public transport system will go back to using their cars as the mornings will not only be darker but obviously colder with the later sunrise.
I would give it a year.

Sure loads of people go into work in the dark as it is, these would be able to come home in the light and even those who now go when its bright come home when it's dark. By your logic they should not be cycling or using public transport as they have to come home in the dark.

Fr Tod Umptious

VinLieger wrote: »

Nobody is suggesting we go onto the same timezone as the EU so stop making stuff up, the suggestion is do we want to stop needlessly changing our clocks twice a year.







The kids argument has been debunked, move on. They go to school in the dark for many weeks of the year as it is dark during October and once December hits its dark again by 8am when many kids are leaving the house.


However if you want to go with the kids argument, how about they have more time to play outside in the evening's instead of sitting in watching tv and playing games which we are always being told is making them fat and lazy so it is undoubtedly a far better use of the hour.

By whom?

I’ll give you a simple example

Our primary school in the west of Ireland starts at 9am

From 8.45am the kids can play in the school yard supervised by staff, so kids start being dropped off around 8.45am.

Only on very wet days do they go straight into the school.

From mid-November through to mid-January it’s usually just about bright at 8.45am and obviously getting brighter.

Now if all year summer time was introduced it would be pitch dark at 8.45 to 9am. So the kids would be going straight into school.

Some schools in the area start at 9.20am, they too would be in darkness prior to entering the school.

What exactly is the upside to all that ?

Because of our geographic location all year summertime or all year wintertime are not suitable.

We have to change the clocks to balance.

Why is that such a problem for people ?

VinLieger

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

By whom?

I’ll give you a simple example

Our primary school in the west of Ireland starts at 9am

From 8.45am the kids can play in the school yard supervised by staff, so kids start being dropped off around 8.45am.

Only on very wet days do they go straight into the school.

From mid-November through to mid-January it’s usually just about bright at 8.45am and obviously getting brighter.

Now if all year summer time was introduced it would be pitch dark at 8.45 to 9am. So the kids would be going straight into school.

Some schools in the area start at 9.20am, they too would be in darkness prior to entering the school.

And when do people leave for the schools? Ill wager the majority are leaving their houses around 8-8:15. In the majority of the country especially in urban areas it would be at the latest that time if not before 8am so regardless of the daylight savings they will be leaving in darkness for many weeks anyway.

And the vast majority of workers leave in darkness regardless of DST for the winter months as well

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Because of our geographic location all year summertime or all year wintertime are not suitable.

Zero factual basis for such a suggestion beyond "this is a thing weve always done therefore we should keep doing it"

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

We have to change the clocks to balance.

Again all you have to back this up is "this is a thing weve always done therefore we should keep doing it"

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Why is that such a problem for people ?

Because there is no good logic behind it other than "weve always done it this way."

VinLieger

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

The EU 'recommends'. I won't argue the difference between 'recommends' and 'suggesting'

You have no clue what you are talking about they never once suggested we switch to EU time simply that we abolish DST. Your opinion is invalid if you do not understand the actual thing being discussed.

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

Its a bit of a generalisation saying that all kids want to play outside at 5pm in Dec and Jan, and then theres the weather .....

Never said that I said it would give them that possibility, ohh no its a bit cold..... so what its good for them as long as they wrap up enough.

Fr Tod Umptious

VinLieger wrote: »

And when do people leave for the schools? Ill wager the majority are leaving their houses around 8-8:15. In the majority of the country especially in urban areas it would be at the latest that time if not before 8am so regardless of the daylight savings they will be leaving in darkness for many weeks anyway.

And the vast majority of workers leave in darkness regardless of DST for the winter months as well

But as that commute continues and gets closer to 9am the day gets brighter, which is good

In an all summertime setup there would be no getting brighter, just darkness for the whole trip.

VinLieger wrote: »

Zero factual basis for such a suggestion beyond "this is a thing weve always done therefore we should keep doing it"

So you dispute the fact that we live at a high latitude and thus have uneven lengths of daylight between summer and winter ?

VinLieger

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

So you dispute the fact that we live at a high latitude and thus have uneven lengths of daylight between summer and winter ?

LOL pathetic strawmanning

prunudo

"Because there is no good logic behind it other than "weve always done it this way"

There seems to be a pattern on this thread that the people who want all year summertime cannot fathom the opposition to it from people who want the current option to remain and any post that tries to explain it with valid points are met with posts that try to belittle our opinion with lines like above.
There is a reason we change times, its to make more use of the available daylight. As much as people think things happen to annoy them, they don't, there are tried and tested reasons why certain things happen. And just because its always been that way doesn't make it wrong.
Becareful what you wish for because all year summertime isn't the golden goose people think it is.

Fr Tod Umptious

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

But as that commute continues and gets closer to 9am the day gets brighter, which is good

In an all summertime setup there would be no getting brighter, just darkness for the whole trip.

So what, potentially 15 mins of brightness while hanging around waiting for school. Keep summer time and they get an extra hour in the evening when they can play outside or do outdoor stuff.

The fact the vast majority of people are in favour of moving to summertime year round makes it clear that it is a very good idea and most people would prefer this.

The evening brightness is just far far more beneficial and useful to the vast majority of people.

Akrasia

Patww79 wrote: »

Let a roar at them. It isn't up to dst to rear kids.

Roaring your kids back to sleep. I like your style.

prunudo

"The fact the vast majority of people are in favour of moving to summertime year round makes it clear that it is a very good idea and most people would prefer this"

Depends what way you ask the question, if you ask people do they want to keep the bright evenings? Or ask them do you want it to stay dark past 9am for 2 months of the year?
I think you'll get 2 different results.

VinLieger

jvan wrote: »

As much as people think things happen to annoy them, they don't, there are tried and tested reasons why certain things happen. And just because its always been that way doesn't make it wrong.
Becareful what you wish for because all year summertime isn't the golden goose people think it is.

Indeed there are tried and tested reasons things happen but there are also reasons we stop doing things that we have been doing for decades once we get new information or change the way we live our day to day lives.


20-30 years ago the vast majority of school children would have walked partly and used public transport or walked fully to school. This has completely changed in recent years and the vast majority are now shuttled via their parents in a car which removes the "safety" argument for school children about keeping daylight savings.


Another example is DST was first globally popularized and used during WW1 the reasoning was to minimize the use of artificial lighting to save fuel for the war effort.
The majority of countries stopped it again immediately after the war and it wasn't reinstated again until the start of WW2.
These days however it very definitely does not save any energy due to our modern way of life and some studies suggest it even increases it.

RobertKK

Spain wants the same time zone as Portugal, saying it has been in the wrong timezone for 7 decades thanks to Franco aligning time with Germany.

VinLieger

RobertKK wrote: »

Spain wants the same time zone as Portugal, saying it has been in the wrong timezone for 7 decades thanks to Franco aligning time with Germany.

They absolutely have, if you look at a globe they should be on the same time as Portugal, ourseleves and the UK

facehugger99

VinLieger wrote: »

They absolutely have, if you look at a globe they should be on the same time as Portugal, ourseleves and the UK

I lived in Spain for a bit and it gets dark far too early, even in the middle of June.

You can't beat the Irish summer when it's still really bright at 10.30pm.

Fr Tod Umptious

facehugger99 wrote: »

I lived in Spain for a bit and it gets dark far too early, even in the middle of June.

You can't beat the Irish summer when it's still really bright at 10.30pm.

And that's why no one is advocating all year "wintertime"

facehugger99

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

And that's why no one is advocating all year "wintertime"

As I understand it, there are sound scientific studies that suggest altering the clock can have a negative effect on people's bio-rhythms and this is how the entire discussion of whether to abolish DST came about.

If the decision is taken to abolish DST, then the question becomes which 'time' we stick with all year round.

Now, if the bio-rhythm arguments were put to the side, then personally I would be ok with keeping 'wintertime' for a couple of months of the year. But if it's a choice between wintertime or summertime all year around - Summertime!

The current situation of having 5 months of wintertime is crazy - we're losing hours of brightness in the evenings of Nov, Feb and March for no good reason.

Riskymove

Just as a comparison

Iceland share our timezone but do not use DST

Sunrise is already past 9am and will go as far as around 11 in winter

If you look it up you'll find plenty of debate about changing timezone or going back to DST. Research suggests people are affected in terms of mood and sleep.

Fr Tod Umptious

VinLieger wrote: »

LOL pathetic strawmanning

So geography and astronomy are now 'pathetic strawmaning'

VinLieger

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

So geography and astronomy are now 'pathetic strawmaning'

Nope you said

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Because of our geographic location all year summertime or all year wintertime are not suitable.

Which i replied to saying you have no factual basis for saying so as this is an OPINION and not a FACT.


You then tried to pathetically strawman that into me disputing geogrpahy and latitude.

Akrasia

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

By whom?

I’ll give you a simple example

Our primary school in the west of Ireland starts at 9am

From 8.45am the kids can play in the school yard supervised by staff, so kids start being dropped off around 8.45am.

Only on very wet days do they go straight into the school.

From mid-November through to mid-January it’s usually just about bright at 8.45am and obviously getting brighter.

at the moment with DST, on the first of december civil twilight starts at 07:45 on the west of Ireland. Actual sunrise is at 08:25, so if it's barely bright from the end of November then you must have a wierd school in a cave somewhere

On the 21st of december, sunrise with DST is at 08:45am but civil twilight is earlier than that

Look out your window now. The sun has set since about 5pm today. Is it dark yet? Not quite. My kids are still outside playing, will be coming in soon, but there's enough light to see for another 20 minutes or so.

Elmer Blooker

VinLieger wrote: »

You have no clue what you are talking about they never once suggested we switch to EU time simply that we abolish DST. Your opinion is invalid if you do not understand the actual thing being discussed.

Never said that I said it would give them that possibility, ohh no its a bit cold..... so what its good for them as long as they wrap up enough.

I would like to point out to you that primary schools close at 2.15/2.30, this allows plenty of remaining daylight for kids to play outdoors don't you agree?

I most definitely understand the astronomical aspect of this discussion, what I don't understand is 'yippee we're getting an extra hour of daylight' side of the discussion.