EU to recommend abolishing DST

facehugger99

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

I most definitely understand the astronomical aspect of this discussion, what I don't understand is 'yippee we're getting an extra hour of daylight' IN THE EVENING side of the discussion.

Not sure where the confusion is coming from TBH.

Capt'n Midnight

Patww79 wrote: »

Lots of adjoining countries in Europe are in different zones so us and Northern Ireland having different ones would hardly be that mind bending.

Look at Oz, some paces use a half an hour difference to the next state. And not everywhere uses daylight saving time.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_in_Australia


https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/93/Entering_Western_Time_Zone.jpg/800px-Entering_Western_Time_Zone.jpg

VinLieger

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

As condescending as ever! :rolleyes:

Not my fault you repeatedly misrepresented the options on the table being discussed by the EU. In several posts you inferred we were being asked to switch to an EU wide timezone which is completely untrue.

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

I would like to point out to you that primary schools close at 2.15/2.30, this allows plenty of remaining daylight for kids to play outdoors don't you agree?

Nope they have homework to be doing don't they? Which for most kids even primary students is at least an hour these days but that's another discussion.

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

I most definitely understand the astronomical aspect of this discussion, what I don't understand is 'yippee we're getting an extra hour of daylight' side of the discussion.

Ohh look you are once again misrepresenting the discussion.

Theres 2 options, we either go with winter time or summer time. If we go with winter time we lose an hour of daylight during the summer as the sun would rise at 4am instead of 5am which then removes an hour of daylight in the evening, if we stick with summertime we lose no hours of daylight as sunrise stays at 5am and sunset stays at 10pm.

There is not good factually based reason to stick with DST beyond "this is what weve always done".

VinLieger

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Look at Oz, some paces use a half an hour difference to the next state. And not everywhere uses daylight saving time.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_in_Australia


https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/93/Entering_Western_Time_Zone.jpg/800px-Entering_Western_Time_Zone.jpg

And people try tell us how having a different timezone to NI would cause havok....... Australia seem to get by

Noo

VinLieger wrote: »

And people try tell us how having a different timezone to NI would cause havok....... Australia seem to get by

No they don't, it's a fupping pain in the arse and they constantly debate the relevance of day light savings like the rest of the world.

Edit: further to this....I've to drive south to New South Wales tomorrow, I completely forgot about daylight saving (as they are only an hour ahead for half the year). This thread reminded me of it and now I have to get up and leave an hour earlier to make it to where I need to be on time.

prunudo

VinLieger wrote: »

Not my fault you repeatedly misrepresented the options on the table being discussed by the EU. In several posts you inferred we were being asked to switch to an EU wide timezone which is completely untrue.



Nope they have homework to be doing don't they? Which for most kids even primary students is at least an hour these days but that's another discussion.



Ohh look you are once again misrepresenting the discussion.

Theres 2 options, we either go with winter time or summer time. If we go with winter time we lose an hour of daylight during the summer as the sun would rise at 4am instead of 5am which then removes an hour of daylight in the evening, if we stick with summertime we lose no hours of daylight as sunrise stays at 5am and sunset stays at 10pm.

There is not good factually based reason to stick with DST beyond "this is what weve always done".

There are 3 options, and the consultation clearly startes that they are looking for opinions on all 3.


"
This consultation asks three important questions:

Do you want to stop changing the clocks twice a year?

If the clock changes stop, do you want to remain on summer time or winter time?

What would your opinion be if this proposal were to give rise to different time zones between Ireland and Northern Ireland?

Individuals, businesses and organisations in Ireland and Northern Ireland can have their say by clicking on this link or emailing timeconsultation@justice.ie . The closing date for this consultation is Friday 30th November 2018."


We have given plenty of reasons that all year summertime is bad, particularly the down side to dark mornings past 9am for two months of the year.

no.8

Noo wrote: »

No they don't, it's a fupping pain in the arse and they constantly debate the relevance of day light savings like the rest of the world.

There's a one hour shift between Galicia in Spain and Portugal to the south for example and they are well used to this (although I feel Spain could be split time-zone wise). We should be in the timezone which suits our geographic position on Earth principally. I don't like DST I have to say. The one hour loss in the evening switching to winter time is unnatural and a bit of a shock to the system to be honest. It will be dark for the entire working day (standard 8-4/9-5) come December anyway so we're talking about a temporary preservation of the morning light.

VinLieger

jvan wrote: »

We have given plenty of reasons that all year summertime is bad, particularly the down side to dark mornings past 9am for two months of the year.

All of which have been based on opinion none supported by any facts, which i have continually asked for but nobody is able to give me.


Heres some facts regarding the negatives of DST though and why we should scrap it.

It is no longer doing the job it was originally intended to do and that is save energy due to how we live our modern lives, in fact studies have shown fuel and energy consumption increases with it.

There is no issue regarding the spurious child safety argument as the vast vast majority are now driven by mummy and daddy to school.

The countries who observe daylights savings are now in the minority rather than the majority as many over the last few years have stopped it completely, 14 since we moved into the 21st century. A significant number to note is that only 20% of the global population on the planet observe it.

Also heart attacks statistically increase by 5% in the week following the spring change and suicide rates increase in the weeks following both the autumn and spring changes.

Riskymove

VinLieger wrote: »

All of which have been based on opinion none supported by any facts, which i have continually asked for but nobody is able to give me.

I referenced the situation in Iceland where thy no longer have DST but there is some pressure to reintroduce.

A google will show a lot of articles linked to research indicating an impact on mood, sleep and even higher rates of depression linked to the dark mornings - of course due to their location they are darker for longer than here - it gets to around 11am in January

Likewise google showed links to areas in Australia which wanted a referendum on bringing in DST where they had none.


While I think there are arguments for getting rid of DST our situation is different to places like Portugal and Spain due to location.

Removing DST may force us to look at our Timezone.

Iceland is in our timezone despite being a significant distance north-west. A move to GMT -1 may be of more benefit to them than DST. Perhaps that should also be looked into here if DST is abolished

prunudo

As you haven't provided sources they are your opinion and not fact.

Here are the facts, I work outdoors, 8-5 as do many others, some have luxury of starting at 9am. Usually leave around 7am, get home around 6pm.
There are plenty who leave earlier and get home later.
Wintertime is optimised to make the most of daylight hours during the working day (maybe chicken and egg scenario but still has a bearing on working hours.

If we remain on all year summertime it will be dark after 9am for 2 months of the year, at its worst it will be closer to 10am on an overcast day.
The majority will not feel the reward of the bright evenings as they will still be commuting, from early December it will be dark by 5.30.

Yes I can adjust my work hours but that means working later and a worse work life balance.

There are the obvious links of the dark mornings having negative impact on the mind and body, but you'll have excuse me on that as I don't have the link to the study to hand.

As I've said before, ask the question 2 different ways and then see if the majority want all year summertime.
1. Do want to keep the bright evenings?
or
2. Do you want it dark past 9am for 2 months of the year and sunrise at 9.40 at the solstice?

VinLieger

Riskymove wrote: »

Removing DST may force us to look at our Timezone.

Iceland is in our timezone despite being a significant distance north-west. A move to GMT -1 may be of more benefit to them than DST. Perhaps that should also be looked into here if DST is abolished

All this would do is permanently make our summer days even shorter than they would be if we switched to winter time permanently which is a ludicrous idea.


Why are some people so desperate to give away hours of usesable daylight during our summer? The hours of useable daylight during winter stays the same regardless.



Also you cite studies about depression etc for dark mornings there are just as many studies showing issues with sleep which also cause depression due to the time change adjustments in sleep patterns and again the link to heart attacks increasing by 5% in spring is something that should not be dismissed so easily.

VinLieger

jvan wrote: »

As you haven't provided sources they are your opinion and not fact.

LOL thats an hilarious misunderstanding of the difference between fact and opinion.

highdef

jvan wrote: »

As you haven't provided sources they are your opinion and not fact.

Here are the facts, I work outdoors, 8-5 as do many others, some have luxury of starting at 9am. Usually leave around 7am, get home around 6pm.
There are plenty who leave earlier and get home later.
Wintertime is optimised to make the most of daylight hours during the working day (maybe chicken and egg scenario but still has a bearing on working hours.

If we remain on all year summertime it will be dark after 9am for 2 months of the year, at its worst it will be closer to 10am on an overcast day.
The majority will not feel the reward of the bright evenings as they will still be commuting, from early December it will be dark by 5.30.

Yes I can adjust my work hours but that means working later and a worse work life balance.

There are the obvious links of the dark mornings having negative impact on the mind and body, but you'll have excuse me on that as I don't have the link to the study to hand.

As I've said before, ask the question 2 different ways and then see if the majority want all year summertime.
1. Do want to keep the bright evenings? Yes
or
2. Do you want it dark past 9am for 2 months of the year and sunrise at 9.40 at the solstice? Don't care, as long as I get nice long bright summer evenings with plenty of usable daylight. I will also get the benefit of daylight for a short while when I get home from work during November, February and March. Having less than 3 months where it's dark when I get home instead of the current 5 will make a massive difference to my mental well being plus I will get the benefit of an extra hour on weekend days/days off so that I can have extended periods of outdoors activities. I would most definitely prefer commuting to work in the dark rather than commuting home in the dark.

Answers in red above.

prunudo

highdef wrote: »

Answers in red above.

Just to be clear, I have no issue with the long summer evenings, I don't believe all year wintertime is the answer either.
Ideally I would prefer they continue with the hour changes but leave it till later in November and sometime in February. Waiting till end of March is too late.

Riskymove

VinLieger wrote: »

Also you cite studies about depression etc for dark mornings there are just as many studies showing issues with sleep which also cause depression due to the time change adjustments in sleep patterns and again the link to heart attacks increasing by 5% in spring is something that should not be dismissed so easily.

You asked for facts so I referred you to them - I haven't dismissed anything

But I find it amusing that you are concerned about things being dismissed when you appear to dismiss any other view

BTW I also haven't offered any opinion on what should happen to DST, just highlighted that there are a broad range of views in countries that don't have DST

VinLieger

jvan wrote: »

Just to be clear, I have no issue with the long summer evenings, I don't believe all year wintertime is the answer either.
Ideally I would prefer they continue with the hour changes but leave it till later in November and sometime in February. Waiting till end of March is too late.

So firstly that would leave us completely adrift from the EU which is not ideal imo and secondly it would also leave us changing times at completely seperate dates to the UK which people have previously said should not be considered either.


Just to note the US and most of the Americas already work on a different timeframe to us which leaves them changing 1 week after us in the autumn and 2-3 weeks before us in the spring so they have 3-4 weeks shorter winter time. But again aligning with them instead of our nearest neighbors imo would not make much sense.

VinLieger

Riskymove wrote: »

But I find it amusing that you are concerned about things being dismissed when you appear to dismiss any other view

I dismiss emotive arguments based on opinion.

Give me factually based arguments and ill consider them properly, so far nobody has done so.

prunudo

VinLieger wrote: »

So firstly that would leave us completely adrift from the EU which is not ideal imo and secondly it would also leave us changing times at completely seperate dates to the UK which people have previously said should not be considered either.


Just to note the US and most of the Americas already work on a different timeframe to us which leaves them changing 1 week after us in the autumn and 2-3 weeks before us in the spring so they have 3-4 weeks shorter winter time. But again aligning with them instead of our nearest neighbors imo would not make much sense.

Does that matter though, I keep reading posts that say it doesn't matter what time zone a country is on as there are plenty of examples where there are time zone differences within country boundaries.

VinLieger

jvan wrote: »

Does that matter though, I keep reading posts that say it doesn't matter what time zone a country is on as there are plenty of examples where there are time zone differences within country boundaries.

It is simply my opinion that i think it would be more beneficial for us to stay as closely aligned as possible to the rest of the EU, i dont mean we should move to their exact timezone simply keeping on the same status regards DST whether they choose to keep or scrap it. Especially as we are likely to be trading with them far more than we currently do if and when brexit goes through, so moving towards aligning with the US or UK on anything and away from the EU doesn't make that much sense to me.

topper75

jvan wrote: »

Ideally I would prefer they continue with the hour changes but leave it till later in November and sometime in February. Waiting till end of March is too late.

Not worth even mentioning this though on the thread. The EU is forcing us to end it altogether.

.......

Id like it gone and Id like it on permanent wintertime.

My reasons:
I hate the change, it disrupts my sleep.
I prefer brighter mornings in winter. Easier to get up, safer for driving to work.
I hate it staying bright so late in the summer. Harder to get to sleep.
I see no benefit in it at all but I see lots of benefit in staying on permanent wintertime.

highdef

....... wrote: »

Id like it gone and Id like it on permanent wintertime.

My reasons:
I hate the change, it disrupts my sleep. I agree and prefer no bi-annual change.
I prefer brighter mornings in winter. Easier to get up, safer for driving to work. If I have a choice of bright morning or evening commute, I would always pick evening as I'm more likely to be feeling tired following a full days work. By the time I get driving in the mornings, I'm fresh and ready for the day ahead.
I hate it staying bright so late in the summer. Harder to get to sleep. Doesn't bother me as I rarely go to bed before 22:00/23:00.
I see no benefit in it at all but I see lots of benefit in staying on permanent wintertime. I see a lot more benefit with regards to usable daylight hours averaged across the full year by staying on summertime/IST permanently

It really is a very divided argument. See my own personal opinions in red above. Our opposite type opinions really highlight what peoples preferences are.

ForestFire

topper75 wrote: »

Not worth even mentioning this though on the thread. The EU is forcing us to end it altogether.

Firstly my current preference, if we are to abolish DST, is to stick with Summer time, but I can see reasons for winter time also.

Also I think moving to a 30min split between the two should be serious consideration in our case as a compromise.

I also think a shortened winter period it also a very good idea. (Start/Mid)Nov, Dec, Jan Feb (Mid/End) only, whatever works best.

I also do not buy all this, we need to stick with NI, UK EU etc or change at the same date.

I work on a daily bases with offices in UK, Germany, Czech Rep., USA, India, China.

Different time zones and the dates they change from summer to winter is also different to us and we all mange these differences and changes without any issues.

If we do not set this up to suit our needs and our needs only, then it is doomed to failure before it starts.

jvan

jvan wrote: »

Yes I can adjust my work hours but that means working later and a worse work life balance.

Why would you have a worse work life balance by starting later? For me it’s the exact opposite I prefer to start later and work later as I’m a terrible morning person and prefer to sleep in the morning rather than get up early. I rarely get up before 8:30 and as I’ve very flexible work hours I would rarely start work before 9:30am and sometimes later. On the other hand I don’t really care if I get home a bit later and now this means when I get home it’s defintely dark which it wasn’t last week and allowed me get some stuff done outside easier in the evening on the farm.

Riskymove

ForestFire wrote: »

I also do not buy all this, we need to stick with NI, UK EU etc or change at the same date.

it is worth remembering that we were once in a different timezone to UK to reflect our actual position. we were around 30 minutes (27 or 37 can't remember off top of my head) different.

That is the nub of the issue really - trying to "match" our actual daylight times to a timezone fixed to our east

.......

highdef wrote: »

It really is a very divided argument. See my own personal opinions in red above. Our opposite type opinions really highlight what peoples preferences are.

Im sure a lot of it depends on how early you rise/what your schedule is.

Im up at 6am and home around 6pm, and because Im up so early Im tired in the evening so would rarely do something outdoors after work so Id have no benefit in it being brighter in the evenings in winter. But I do hate arriving at the gym in the dark at 7am.

Again, because Im up at 6am (or before) I go to bed 21:30 - 22:00 year round.

The usuable daylight hours are subjective, again depending on what time someone gets up. Its far more useful to me to have an hours extra light in the morning in winter so Im not getting up in the dark so often - which I find incredibly difficult.

Another reason Id prefer to stay on wintertime is that summertime is the "change". So if we are to stop this practice, then wintertime is the baseline.

Actually though, Id adjust to either permanent wintertime or permanent summertime. I really just want the change to stop.

irelandrover

Leroy Cuddly Warmonger wrote: »

Why would you have a worse work life balance by starting later? For me it’s the exact opposite I prefer to start later and work later as I’m a terrible morning person and prefer to sleep in the morning rather than get up early. I rarely get up before 8:30 and as I’ve very flexible work hours I would rarely start work before 9:30am and sometimes later. On the other hand I don’t really care if I get home a bit later and now this means when I get home it’s defintely dark which it wasn’t last week and allowed me get some stuff done outside easier in the evening on the farm.

Because some poeple have children who go to bed early. If you get home late then you get less time with them. Not everyone is the same as you.

.......

Leroy Cuddly Warmonger wrote: »

Why would you have a worse work life balance by starting later? For me it’s the exact opposite I prefer to start later and work later as I’m a terrible morning person and prefer to sleep in the morning rather than get up early. I rarely get up before 8:30 and as I’ve very flexible work hours I would rarely start work before 9:30am and sometimes later. On the other hand I don’t really care if I get home a bit later and now this means when I get home it’s defintely dark which it wasn’t last week and allowed me get some stuff done outside easier in the evening on the farm.

Wouldnt make any sense for people with children.

Most of the working population and those with children would have early starts.

Starting work after 9.30am is unusual.

Riskymove

As posts show whatever action (or inaction) is implemented everyone cannot be pleased!

I would suggest that people respond to the consultation on this so that as wide a range of views can be considered

highdef

....... wrote: »

Another reason Id prefer to stay on wintertime is that summertime is the "change". So if we are to stop this practice, then wintertime is the baseline.

.

I mentioned already that in Ireland, winter is actually the "change". According to legislation written in 1968, Summer time is our standard/baseline time - IST (Irish Standard Time) is from late March to late October. Winter time, from late October to late March, is when we switch away from our standard time and we move to IST -1.

So if we do go by the "baseline", then what we generally call "summer time" should be the de facto.

In short, summer time in Ireland is IST. In the UK, it is GMT +1.
Winter in Ireland is IST -1 (often just called GMT). In the UK, it is GMT.