EU to recommend abolishing DST

Thelonious Monk

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

The majority of people disagree with you.

Who appointed you as my spokesperson? I abhor the dark mornings in December/January, the notion of waking up in pitch darkness at 8am is absurd. Others prefer the extra hour of daylight in the evening, and that's understandable. After all, one would have to agree to disagree...

Thelonious Monk

Deleted User wrote: »

Who appointed you as my spokesperson? I abhor the dark mornings in December/January, the notion of waking up in pitch darkness at 8am is absurd. Others prefer the extra hour of daylight in the evening, and that's understandable. After all, one would have to agree to disagree...

Every poll I've seen has been 80%+ in favour of sticking to summer time

prunudo

prunudo wrote: »

Its a very divisive subject, I don't believe that the extra hour in the evening will be as beneficial as some make it out to be.

....

I suspect that after 2 winters of dark mornings there will be a review of the situation.

Like it was the last time they tried it in the 1960s

Thelonious Monk

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Every poll I've seen has been 80%+ in favour of sticking to summer time

"Each to their own", from the holy scripture. I'm not flexing one iota.

Cork Boy 53

Deleted User wrote: »

Like it was the last time they tried it in the 1960s

Ireland had not joined the EU back then. Entirely different situation now.

Thelonious Monk

Deleted User wrote: »

"Each to their own", from the holy scripture. I'm not flexing one iota.

Well each to their own would work if we could all just subscribe to the hours we most agreed with!

r93kaey5p2izun

Are there any countries of similar latitude which have successfully adopted an equivalent permanent summertime?

Fr Tod Umptious

Cork Boy 53 wrote: »

Ireland had not joined the EU back then. Entirely different situation now.

Being a member of the EU will not make it any brighter in the morning.

It was tried in the 60s and canned because the British canned it.
They were sick of the dark mornings.

Cork Boy 53

Cork Boy 53 wrote: »

Ireland had not joined the EU back then. Entirely different situation now.

Timezone selection is optional for all members, the EU isn't enforcing any change.

Geographic location does of course.

VinLieger

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Being a member of the EU will not make it any brighter in the morning.

It was tried in the 60s and canned because the British canned it.
They were sick of the dark mornings.

It was tried 60 years ago when our culture and lifestyles were radically different. Saying it wont work because it was tried in the 60's is ignoring the radical change in everday life since then.

Andy From Sligo

I'm no good at working this all out but all these times and when it will get dark and light and everything, but even after Brexit there will be no getting away that Britain and Northern Ireland will still be our closest neighbours and presumably the UK will still like to trade with Ireland and vice versa, so if we are to be on a different timezone to the UK and norn Ireland how will that fair with trade and things like customer services departments and other things if we have a different time to the UK if they don't adopt it, it will be misaligned . Although on the other hand I suppose Britain and France and other European countries are either an hour ahead or behind and still work it out I suppose.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

I actually like them, I like cycling to work when it's still dark for some reason. Coming home is a 'mare though.

I don’t know why but I struggle so badly with the dark mornings. I have memories of looking out the window eating my breakfast before school and just being so depressed at the pitch blackness. Whereas in the evenings, I’m winding down so it doesn’t bother me.

There’s a Reykjavík webcam I look at periodically throughout the year. They stay on year-round GMT because I guess their midwinter days are just so short that it doesn’t matter. But it is so depressing to see it still dark at 10am and later in the winter. Icelanders have no choice but to endure that but we do have a choice!

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Every poll I've seen has been 80%+ in favour of sticking to summer time

The system we have now or the proposed year-round summertime?

Another thing to note is that this proposal is to end a clock change and not to have just summertime in the EU. Aren't there states who are in favour of staying on wintertime? Having various states ending up staying on both winter & summertime would be worse than the current arrangements. I can honestly see this whole proposal being binned (yet again). Maybe the best compromise would be to lengthen summertime. Put the clocks forward at the start of March as they do in alot of North America.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

Deleted User wrote: »

Another thing to note is that this proposal is to end a clock change and not to have just summertime in the EU. Aren't there states who are in favour of staying on wintertime? Having various states ending up staying on both winter & summertime would be worse than the current arrangements. I can honestly see this whole proposal being binned (yet again). Maybe the best compromise would be to lengthen summertime. Put the clocks forward at the start of March as they do in alot of North America.

That could work. It doesn’t necessarily have to be bisected equally between UTC and Summertime.

VinLieger

Deleted User wrote: »

Another thing to note is that this proposal is to end a clock change and not to have just summertime in the EU. Aren't there states who are in favour of staying on wintertime? Having various states ending up staying on both winter & summertime would be worse than the current arrangements. I can honestly see this whole proposal being binned (yet again). Maybe the best compromise would be to lengthen summertime. Put the clocks forward at the start of March as they do in alot of North America.

They are moving towards abolishing it in NA soon as well.


Also why will multiple countries being on different timezones be such a big deal? It will be something we all get used to pretty quickly.


IMO most of the objections to this can be traced back to a very simple problem of many people not liking change.

Andy From Sligo

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

I don’t know why but I struggle so badly with the dark mornings. I have memories of looking out the window eating my breakfast before school and just being so depressed at the pitch blackness. Whereas in the evenings, I’m winding down so it doesn’t bother me.

There’s a Reykjavík webcam I look at periodically throughout the year. They stay on year-round GMT because I guess their midwinter days are just so short that it doesn’t matter. But it is so depressing to see it still dark at 10am and later in the winter. Icelanders have no choice but to endure that but we do have a choice!



The system we have now or the proposed year-round summertime?

indeed - our bodies react to daylight or lack of it . In the normal course of things darkness outside tells our bodies to go into sleep mode .. and brightness outside tells our bodies its daytime and to wake up ... this is why a lot of people on night-shift jobs suffer so bad sometimes, it throws their body clocks out.

VinLieger

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

indeed - our bodies react to daylight or lack of it . In the normal course of things darkness outside tells our bodies to go into sleep mode .. and brightness outside tells our bodies its daytime and to wake up ... this is why a lot of people on night-shift jobs suffer so bad sometimes, it throws their body clocks out.

If we move to summer time we still get the same amount of daylight hours in winter it just is an hour later.


Whereas if we moved to winter time we would actually have 1 less hour of usable daylight in summer as sunrise would happen at 3:50am instead of 4:50 am and sunset would happen at 20:50 instead of 21:50

Fr Tod Umptious

VinLieger wrote: »

If we move to summer time we still get the same amount of daylight hours in winter it just is an hour later.


Whereas if we moved to winter time we would actually have 1 less hour of usable daylight in summer as sunrise would happen at 3:50am instead of 4:50 am and sunset would happen at 20:50 instead of 21:50

And that's why the status quo, i.e. changing clocks twice a year suits us in Ireland best.

Fr Tod Umptious

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

And that's why the status quo, i.e. changing clocks twice a year suits us in Ireland best.

Except it doesn’t suit most people don’t want to be changing clocks twice a year for various different reasons.

I’ve been calling for this to happen since I was a child, I think changing clocks is ridiculous and ruins the evenings for a good few months of the year.

VinLieger

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

And that's why the status quo, i.e. changing clocks twice a year suits us in Ireland best.

Zero evidence to support that claim bar it being your opinion. Neither option is objectively worse or better for the majority, for some it is slightly more convenient/inconvenient is all, therefore we should move to stop changing clocks if the rest of Europe is doing it.

Lackadaisical

I’d say being out of sync with NI and GB won’t make all that much difference. As it is, some businesses open at 8:00, 8:30, 9:00 and you even get some that open after 9:00.

Likewise closing times are highly variable.

I could see it making very little difference to businesses. Back in the 60s we were very much a 9 to 5 kind of place and far more bound to the clock in many ways.

Also while we are rather far north compared to the US (Dublin is roughly in line with Edmonton in Alberta in Canada, but most of the populated parts of Europe are pretty far north, including the whole stretch from Paris across the Benelux and into NW Germany.

So I’m kinda not seeing the huge reason why this will impact people in Ireland mort than in Denmark or the Netherlands.

Also, you can be 100000% sure that If the EU does away with daylight saving time the British will adopt its as a great institution to be celebrated along side foot stabbing 13amp plugs and a terrible fear of mixer taps.

Riskymove

Lackadaisical wrote: »

Likewise closing times are highly variable.

.

the main difficulties would be for those living around the border

many live one side and go to school/work on other
or live and bring kids to school one side but work on the other etc.

in some places the town/area is half one side and half the other etc.

a time difference would make things complicated for a lot of such people

Cee-Jay-Cee

I cant understand why Flannagan plans to oppose this, he says it was as a result of a working group (aka junket party) and public consultation...I don't know what public consultation he 's talking about as every poll/thread etc I have seen on this has been in favour of scrapping DST. Europe voted overwhelmingly in favour of scrapping DST and the Irish were included in that...so why has he decided to go on what appears a lone crusade on this matter with out any public backing or favour!

Why should we care what NI does?? They need us more than we need them so let them follow our lead. Why should we have to adopt the same practice as them?

Lone Stone

no i like it the way it is leave it alone, i dont fancy trying to sleep when its sunny out

Andy From Sligo

Cee-Jay-Cee wrote: »

...
Why should we care what NI does?? They need us more than we need them so let them follow our lead. Why should we have to adopt the same practice as them?

that's quite a big question that most probably warrants a different thread , but why do they need us more than we need then ? (in a concise one sentence answer) because i'm confused . They are are closest neighbour and in the case of what we or they do with the DST and time zones and some other matters wouldnt it be more sensible to have a level playing field on some things?

Cyprus is a divided island, northern Cyprus recently decided to switch to the same timezone as Turkey, both summer and winter.

This made them out of step with southern Cyprus, after one year, they reverted to Cyprus time.

Cork Boy 53

This is being discussed on RTE Radio 1 now.

VinLieger

Cork Boy 53 wrote: »

This is being discussed on RTE Radio 1 now.

UGH so many of the tired old lame excuses "children walking to schools in the dark" , "it was tried in the 60's and didn't work" which refuse to acknowledge we have completely changed as a society since then and our priorities are radically different along with our ability to adapt.

The two timezones "issue" is something that can quite easily be worked around too.

This is all being driven once again by people who are just against change in general rather than having reasonable problems with this.

facehugger99

According to the article on RTE website

However, more than 80% of those surveyed would not support any measure that created different time zones on the island.

I would love to see the data for this - what way specifically was the question phrased?

I simply don't believe that 80% of the population want to stick with UK time regardless - it doesn't seem credible that such a large percentage of the population would sacrifice permanent summertime over what time it happens to be in Belfast or Colraine.

I call bull**** on this figure - the Govt. are using it to try and get out of implementing a measure that the overwhelming majority of people want.

Ush1

facehugger99 wrote: »

According to the article on RTE website






I would love to see the data for this - what way specifically was the question phrased?

I simply don't believe that 80% of the population want to stick with UK time regardless - it doesn't seem credible that such a large percentage of the population would sacrifice permanent summertime over what time it happens to be in Belfast or Colraine.

I call bull**** on this figure - the Govt. are using it to try and get out of implementing a measure that the overwhelming majority of people want.

Well you'd be right to not believe because I'm fairly sure the survey didn't ask every member of the population.

Strazdas

facehugger99 wrote: »

According to the article on RTE website






I would love to see the data for this - what way specifically was the question phrased?

I simply don't believe that 80% of the population want to stick with UK time regardless - it doesn't seem credible that such a large percentage of the population would sacrifice permanent summertime over what time it happens to be in Belfast or Colraine.

I call bull**** on this figure - the Govt. are using it to try and get out of implementing a measure that the overwhelming majority of people want.

I participated in the online survey and said I didn't care about the border issue.

I seriously doubt 80% of people polled said their stance on the EU clock change was dependent on what NI do.

Andy From Sligo

cue the Referendum on "should we abolish changing the clocks in Ireland twice a year or keep them the same" referendum

However they might have to coincide it with another emotive referendum because I dont think there would be a big enough turnout just for the should we carry on changing time referendum ...

Ush1

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

cue the Referendum on "should we abolish changing the clocks in Ireland twice a year or keep them the same" referendum

However they might have to coincide it with another emotive referendum because I dont think there would be a big enough turnout just for the should we carry on changing time referendum ...

Would the constitution need to be changed? I don't think so.

Riskymove

Ush1 wrote: »

Would the constitution need to be changed? I don't think so.

you could have a "plebiscite" like the recent Elected Mayor question rather than a referendum

Andy From Sligo

Ush1 wrote: »

Would the constitution need to be changed? I don't think so.

ah , small potatoes .. I think they should put it to the great unwashed public before they do anything ....

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

indeed - our bodies react to daylight or lack of it . In the normal course of things darkness outside tells our bodies to go into sleep mode .. and brightness outside tells our bodies its daytime and to wake up ... this is why a lot of people on night-shift jobs suffer so bad sometimes, it throws their body clocks out.

I think 17-pdr’s suggestion is a very good one. Bisect the year unequally. Summertime for maybe even up to ten months of the year, then UTC for the depths of winter when the evenings wouldn’t be lengthened all that much on UTC+1. Those of us who hate the midwinter dark mornings would be catered to but so would everyone else who wants to utilise the evening daylight once a decent stretch in the evening develops.

Fr Tod Umptious

VinLieger wrote: »

Zero evidence to support that claim bar it being your opinion. Neither option is objectively worse or better for the majority, for some it is slightly more convenient/inconvenient is all, therefore we should move to stop changing clocks if the rest of Europe is doing it.

Over 100 years of using DST and our position on the earth support that claim.

caff

I think we need to hear what the conspiracy theorists have to say on the matter. Clearly the attempt to remove DST is part of the grand fluoride vaccination EU army and 5G plot

OldRio

As soon as we change the better.

MontgomeryClift

prunudo wrote: »

One point to note though, I think a lot of people will choose all year summertime as it sounds like the happy, fluffy option where everything is full of roses and we all can exercise and have a fun filled life after work during the winter months.
I suspect that after 2 winters of dark mornings there will be a review of the situation.

This happened in Russia. They abolished the time change and fixed on summertime. Then they went back to wintertime.

https://www.pri.org/stories/2014-12-19/putin-abolished-daylight-savings-time-and-siberians-are-grumbling-about-eternal

So why did Putin decide to plunge Russia into what some have described as "eternal winter"? One official reason given was health. According to a sleep expert quoted by the government news agency TASS, "Dark mornings have a worse effect on people's state of health than dark evenings."

But some are still complaining.

If you ask Camilla Kring, she'll tell you it isn't fair. She's president of the B-Society, a group based in Denmark that's is dedicated to promoting the rights of late risers, or "B People" as chronobiologists call them.

"The problem in today's society is that the society only supports the "A" person, you know, the person who prefers to get up early and go to bed early."

Kring told me we shouldn't equate early rising with qualities like responsibility and diligence. Late risers aren't slackers and according to her research, there are actually more of them.

Still, government officials in Chita at first were less than sympathetic to those B people who opposed the new 8 a.m. start time.

"The comment from the spokesperson of the gubernatorial office was those government employees who do not like the new order can jolly well just leave their job," Krushelnitskaya says.

But a few weeks, and 60,000 signatures on an online petition later, the government's position seemed to soften. Recently, the governor, Konstantin Ilkovsky, promised to evaluate the impact of the new time regime next year. He even hinted they might just get their hour back.

Perhaps eternal winter will not be so eternal after all.

Maybe it's best to leave ill enough alone.

VinLieger

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Over 100 years of using DST and our position on the earth support that claim.

Hahaha what an absurd argument to make, but lets go with it, we got on just fine before DST came along which was a hell of a lot longer than 100 years

Lone Stone

Lone Stone wrote: »

no i like it the way it is leave it alone, i dont fancy trying to sleep when its sunny out

The change to all year summertime will not make any difference to you. It will still be dark in the winter long before bedtime and summer will be the same as it is now.

Riskymove

VinLieger wrote: »

Hahaha what an absurd argument to make, but lets go with it, we got on just fine before DST came along which was a hell of a lot longer than 100 years

we even had our own time zone different to UK......and survived

Franz Von Peppercorn II

voluntary wrote: »

I'd personally do both. Move the nation to wake up early and also abolish the DST. I worked 7-3 before, it's like having an extra day when you finish your job. I liked that.

That’s great. Not available to most.

Franz Von Peppercorn II

VinLieger wrote: »

Zero evidence to support that claim bar it being your opinion. Neither option is objectively worse or better for the majority, for some it is slightly more convenient/inconvenient is all, therefore we should move to stop changing clocks if the rest of Europe is doing it.

No, the changing of clocks is an obvious better compromise. It makes winter mornings more bearable and keeps summer time.

The cost is one hour is sleep. Which you get back.

Paddy Cow

Deleted User wrote: »

Another thing to note is that this proposal is to end a clock change and not to have just summertime in the EU. Aren't there states who are in favour of staying on wintertime? Having various states ending up staying on both winter & summertime would be worse than the current arrangements. I can honestly see this whole proposal being binned (yet again). Maybe the best compromise would be to lengthen summertime. Put the clocks forward at the start of March as they do in alot of North America.

Does this mean that the government don't have a choice as to whether we stick with summer or winter time? If this is the case, we'd still end up out of sync with NI for half the year. I would hate if we stayed with winter time all year as I love the long summer nights.

Franz Von Peppercorn II

Cee-Jay-Cee wrote: »

I cant understand why Flannagan plans to oppose this, he says it was as a result of a working group (aka junket party) and public consultation...I don't know what public consultation he 's talking about as every poll/thread etc I have seen on this has been in favour of scrapping DST. Europe voted overwhelmingly in favour of scrapping DST and the Irish were included in that...so why has he decided to go on what appears a lone crusade on this matter with out any public backing or favour!

Why should we care what NI does?? They need us more than we need them so let them follow our lead. Why should we have to adopt the same practice as them?

We had a separate Irish government consultation on this, and keeping the system was an option. I did that.

Riskymove

Paddy Cow wrote: »

Does this mean that the government don't have a choice as to whether we stick with summer or winter time?

essentially yes

whatever the EU decide to do we would have to abide by

of course they could decide to allow us to keep it and let the rest of EU stop it...who knows

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

Leroy Cuddly Warmonger wrote: »

Except it doesn’t suit most people don’t want to be changing clocks twice a year for various different reasons.

I’ve been calling for this to happen since I was a child, I think changing clocks is ridiculous and ruins the evenings for a good few months of the year.

I just can’t get over this. That is a job that takes less than ten minutes. How lazy can a person be? It might be an issue for someone who is disabled but in that case, you’d hope they’d keep the clocks in easy reach.

There are others reasons I have time for, pun intended. But not the moaning about having to change a few clocks twice a year. If that seriously bothers you, you don’t know you’re alive. It is such a non-problem.

Franz Von Peppercorn II

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

I just can’t get over this. That is a job that takes less than ten minutes. How lazy can a person be? It might be an issue for someone who is disabled but in that case, you’d hope they’d keep the clocks in easy reach.

There are others reasons I have time for, pun intended. But not the moaning about having to change a few clocks twice a year. If that seriously bothers you, you don’t know you’re alive. It is such a non-problem.

The funny thing is that this would have been a much bigger issue from 1916 - 200x. Now our devices largely correct themselves.