EU to recommend abolishing DST

Laois_Man

Deleted User wrote: »

Just can't see it. Sunrise at just after 4am on June 21st? Total waste of daylight for most people.

All year summertime was tested for two-years 50 years ago and it didn't work - it brought problems in December and January (e.g. children going to school in the dark, outdoor workers starting work in the dark, roads being more dangerous with frost getting an hour less to thaw) . Russia also attempted all year summertime only 8 years ago and had to revert the other way 3 years later.

jam_mac_jam

Deleted User wrote: »

Nightmare. You are looking at a 4am sunrise in June with that. Waste of daylight for the vast majority of people I think.

We have that now?

VinLieger

Laois_Man wrote: »

All year summertime was tested for two-years 50 years ago and it didn't work - it brought problems in December and January (e.g. children going to school in the dark, outdoor workers starting work in the dark, roads being more dangerous with frost getting an hour less to thaw) . Russia also attempted all year summertime only 8 years ago and had to revert the other way 3 years later.

The key to that is it being 50 years ago, outdoor workers are nothing like the number they were then, how many kids do you know of that are still walking the entire way to school and not on public transport or in mammy's crossover these days, people can be educated about cold road conditions and will quickly cop on, also the amount of morning traffic will quickly heat them to help thaw anything still on them.


Russia had to revert because it makes no sense due to how far north it extends to stick on summer time, we will face nothing like the levels and amount of darkness those in northern Russia had to deal with which is the primary reason they reverted back.

jam_mac_jam

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

We have that now?

Just before 5am in Dublin on June 21st.

Laois_Man

Laois_Man wrote: »

All year summertime was tested for two-years 50 years ago and it didn't work - it brought problems in December and January (e.g. children going to school in the dark, outdoor workers starting work in the dark, roads being more dangerous with frost getting an hour less to thaw) . Russia also attempted all year summertime only 8 years ago and had to revert the other way 3 years later.

Summer time all year round should have been brought in years ago and thankfully it will hopefully be brought in soon. This kids going to school in the dark excuse is the worst of the lot, so what!!

Changing clocks is a pain in the hole and it’s far better to have dark mornings in winter and a bit more light in the evenings.

highdef

Deleted User wrote: »

Just before 5am in Dublin on June 21st.

With civil twilight beginning just after 4am. So if we stayed in winter time, it would be appreciably bright (dawn) on a clear day from just after 3am, in mid-June.

The above is for Dublin. Further west will be a few minutes later.

Laois_Man

Not voting in the poll coz it doesn't have the option I would have voted for

The whole darn thing is a stupid idea - I wouldn't leave it the way it is, I'd just change winter time to occur from mid November to end January. Ten weeks - that's all it needs to be!

My son leaves for school at about 8:30am - I do not want him going out in the dark in Dec/Jan. I don't want to be starting work in the dark myself, with it dark again when I finish! That's even more depressing than what we do now.
Plus you'll have neighboring countries in some parts of Europe who'll choose the opposite timezone and will create an hour difference that never existed before - for a tiny island like Ireland to have two different time-zones is a bit ridiculous. Plus, it changes the overlap time in the working day for those of us working with American colleagues in American companies - perhaps an hour less overlap depending on which way we go. You'd have a lot of people shifting their day by one hour instead of shifting their clocks by one hour which renders the entire exercise utterly pointless for those. The EU wanted the effects to come into play this year until some complained that the whole thing actually has costs.

highdef

Laois_Man wrote: »

Not voting in the poll coz it doesn't have the option I would have voted for

The options that are listed are the options that the public will be asked to chose from, assuming that this will happen in due course. So the options presented here are most representative of what the public will be asked.

Laois_Man wrote: »

My son leaves for school at about 8:30am - I do not want him going out in the dark in Dec/Jan.

Can I reasonably assume that your son walks along unlit country roads to school, probably with no footpaths provided? If there are footpaths and/or streetlights provided, there should be no issue unless he is quite young and not yet experienced enough to navigate safely in dark conditions whilst walking along the road although I don't think there are too many children who have to contend with the above scenario these days.

Laois_Man wrote: »

Plus you'll have neighboring countries in some parts of Europe who'll choose the opposite timezone and will create an hour difference that never existed before - for a tiny island like Ireland to have two different time-zones is a bit ridiculous. Plus, it changes the overlap time in the working day for those of us working with American colleagues in American companies - perhaps an hour less overlap depending on which way we go. You'd have a lot of people shifting their day by one hour instead of shifting their clocks by one hour which renders the entire exercise utterly pointless for those. The EU wanted the effects to come into play this year until some complained that the whole thing actually has costs.

The time differences aren't really that big a deal. The differences are already there, they'll just move around a bit. Very easily dealt with. You're making a massive deal over something that is not.

highdef

Assuming the result so far of the poll is even slightly representative of what the general public will vote for, almost 86% of Boards.ie voters preferring to remain in summer time all year round is pretty unanimous.

.......

highdef wrote: »

Assuming the result so far of the poll is even slightly representative of what the general public will vote for, almost 86% of Boards.ie voters preferring to remain in summer time all year round is pretty unanimous.

boards.ie is not very representative of the general public so Id be inclined to think we will get the opposite to what boards thinks.

Laois_Man

highdef wrote: »

The options that are listed are the options that the public will be asked to chose from, assuming that this will happen in due course. So the options presented here are most representative of what the public will be asked.

Where are the public going to be asked to choose? Are we going to have a referendum on it?

highdef wrote: »

Can I reasonably assume that your son walks along unlit country roads to school, probably with no footpaths provided? If there are footpaths and/or streetlights provided, there should be no issue unless he is quite young and not yet experienced enough to navigate safely in dark conditions whilst walking along the road although I don't think there are too many children who have to contend with the above scenario these days.

Well no, it is not unlit country roads (but those that do live along unlit country roads do actually matter). It is not suitable for him to be out in the dark regardless of the time of the day. I don't see lads of his age out in the dark at 8:30pm, why will it be OK for them to be out in dark mornings when we have them at 8:30am.

Ireland and the UK experimented with all year summertime before and it didn't work for a whole multitude of reasons

highdef wrote: »

The time differences aren't really that big a deal. The differences are already there, they'll just move around a bit. Very easily dealt with. You're making a massive deal over something that is not.

Well the time difference with N. Ireland and GB is not already there. A time difference between Norway/Sweden/Belgium/Holland/France/Germany/Switzerland/Italy/Poland/Austria isn't already there. There's nothing forcing them to take the same decision, and they probably all won't.

As for the US, That's the point - they're moving around. As it is, at busy times, I often work longer than I am supposed to if I am heavily involved in US based project and they don't arrive in work til 2pm and this could make it 3pm for their wintertime. Sometimes I (and many others) have to work US hours altogether and don't get out til 10pm. If that changes to 11pm, that is not an insignificant change.

VinLieger

Laois_Man wrote: »

As for the US, That's the point - they're moving around. As it is, at busy times, I often work longer than I am supposed to if I am heavily involved in US based project and they don't arrive in work til 2pm and this could make it 3pm for their wintertime. Sometimes I (and many others) have to work US hours altogether and don't get out til 10pm. If that changes to 11pm, that is not an insignificant change.

I also work with the US and you are wrong, if we went to summer time all year round then during their winter time the time difference would reduce by 1 hour not increase.

Edit: nevermind i got my maths backwards

highdef

Laois_Man wrote: »

Where are the public going to be asked to choose? Are we going to have a referendum on it?

I don't know the answer to either of those questions but my thinking is that there probably wouldn't be a referendum and instead perhaps another public consultation.....that's just me guessing, of course.

Laois_Man wrote: »

Well no, it is not unlit country roads (but those that do live along unlit country roads do actually matter). It is not suitable for him to be out in the dark regardless of the time of the day. I don't see lads of his age out in the dark at 8:30pm, why will it be OK for them to be out in dark mornings when we have them at 8:30am.

I live in a VERY small rural village (it's actually described as a rural node, it's that small) and only a couple of dozen primary schoolkids get the benefit of streetlights and footpaths in the immediate vicinity of the village. Most of these kids walk to school and in the mid/late December, they cope fine walking the <750m to school even though it's still often rather dark on cloudy mornings at about 08:30. Those who wait at the church for the school bus to another school walk in complete darkness to be collected at about 8am. Staying in summer time will make little difference to them.

Laois_Man wrote: »

Well the time difference with N. Ireland and GB is not already there. A time difference between Norway/Sweden/Belgium/Holland/France/Germany/Switzerland/Italy/Poland/Austria isn't already there. There's nothing forcing them to take the same decision, and they probably all won't.

You're cherry picking countries there to make it seem like nearly every EU country are on the same time. Portugal shares the same time as Ireland and the UK. Finland, Greece and many eastern Europe EU countries are currently 2 hours ahead of us and 1 hour ahead of the list of countries you listed. Although currently only a candidate to be an EU country, Turkey is currently 3 hours ahead of us. Within Spain, the mainland is 1 hour ahead of us but the Canary Islands have the same time as us. That's quite a spread of different timezones currently in the EU.

Laois_Man wrote: »

As for the US, That's the point - they're moving around. As it is, at busy times, I often work longer than I am supposed to if I am heavily involved in US based project and they don't arrive in work til 2pm and this could make it 3pm for their wintertime. Sometimes I (and many others) have to work US hours altogether and don't get out til 10pm. If that changes to 11pm, that is not an insignificant change.

If you are working later hours, do you not get a later starting time? As it is, the United States already has 5 times zones, 6 if you want to include the Hawaii-Aleutian Islands, so it's already a mess with different people in different parts of the country on different times. Whilst the US also changes its clocks forwards/backwards, it makes the changes at different dates to Europe. Daylight saving time (DST) begins on the second Sunday of March and ends on the first Sunday of November. Whether we stay in summer (technically Irish Standard Time) or winter time, not changing the clocks at this end will be an improvement as there will be only 2 times of discontinuity per year (the US clock changes) versus the 4 times of discontinuity that currently exists (the US clock changes AND the Europe clock changes).

klaaaz

Laois_Man wrote: »

Well no, it is not unlit country roads (but those that do live along unlit country roads do actually matter). It is not suitable for him to be out in the dark regardless of the time of the day. I don't see lads of his age out in the dark at 8:30pm, why will it be OK for them to be out in dark mornings when we have them at 8:30am.

Ireland and the UK experimented with all year summertime before and it didn't work for a whole multitude of reasons

The child presently comes home from school in the dark so what's the difference to going to school in the dark instead? The forthcoming change will change his journey time in the dark from the evening to the morning(assuming he doesn't travel to school in the morning in the dark already!)

The previous experiment back in the late 60's(i think) was when most children walked to school. Now as a suburban urbanite, I live on the actual route that parents ferry their kids to and from school every day with most undertaking a 3KM (or less) journey. The vast majority(we're talking 90%) of teenagers(nevermind primary school) are chauffeured to and from school every day, they do be stuck in their cars at traffic lights on my road!
I'm actually delighted to see that tiny minority of kids(less than a dozen) who walk and cycle past my gaff as that what it was like when I went to school many years ago.
The darkness in the morning in the winter affects no-one as most are commuting/ferrying their kids at that hour, the extra daylight hour in the winter which will mean people can enjoy daylight till 5pm instead of 4pm is to be welcomed.

Spanish Eyes

What would all year Wintertime mean? I have a handle on all year Summertime which I currently prefer as it sounds nice and warm ha ha. But not sure of the effect of Wintertime all year. I am assuming earlier darkness in Summer than now, but not sure.

Harry Palmr

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

What would all year Wintertime mean? I have a handle on all year Summertime which I currently prefer as it sounds nice and warm ha ha. But not sure of the effect of Wintertime all year. I am assuming earlier darkness in Summer than now, but not sure.

Wintertime means light before 9 am in winter and dark by 10.30 pm in June, Summertime means dark when the kids are going to school in midwinter and light until 11.30 in June.

mollser

klaaaz wrote: »

<snip> The vast majority(we're talking 90%) of teenagers(nevermind primary school) are chauffeured to and from school every day, they do be stuck in their cars at traffic lights on my road!
I'm actually delighted to see that tiny minority of kids(less than a dozen) who walk and cycle past my gaff as that what it was like when I went to school many years ago. <snip>

... and if we were to encourage more and more kids walk/cycle/scoot to school (which we should be), do you think having 4 months of dark mornings will encourage or hinder this? Likely that those few kids who do walk will then be chauffered, leading to more traffic problems:D

Oh, and take a walk around Ranelagh, Dundrum or any other suburb in the morning and you will see plenty upon plenty of very young kids walking to school, there are way way more than <10%.

awec

mollser wrote: »

... and if we were to encourage more and more kids walk/cycle/scoot to school (which we should be), do you think having 4 months of dark mornings will encourage or hinder this? Likely that those few kids who do walk will then be chauffered, leading to more traffic problems:D

Oh, and take a walk around Ranelagh, Dundrum or any other suburb in the morning and you will see plenty upon plenty of very young kids walking to school, there are way way more than <10%.

Pretty sure it won't be 4 months. Dark past 9am in December and January possibly.

Spanish Eyes

Harry Palmr wrote: »

Wintertime means light before 9 am in winter and dark by 10.30 pm in June, Summertime means dark when the kids are going to school in midwinter and light until 11.30 in June.

Thanks.

Summertime it is so. Sounding a bit like all daylight in Northern Scandinavia in Summer, with a bit of light in the evenings in Winter evenings as a plus. What's not to like really?

Apart from the kids going to school. But how many kids walk to school now anyway? Sorry not dismissing the concerns of some parents about this. But it can be worked out surely to the benefit of everyone apart from a tiny minority of kids who walk to school in Winter.

Spanish Eyes

mollser wrote: »

... and if we were to encourage more and more kids walk/cycle/scoot to school (which we should be), do you think having 4 months of dark mornings will encourage or hinder this? Likely that those few kids who do walk will then be chauffered, leading to more traffic problems:D

Oh, and take a walk around Ranelagh, Dundrum or any other suburb in the morning and you will see plenty upon plenty of very young kids walking to school, there are way way more than <10%.

That is great to hear, but the dangers are on country boreens and country roads with no footpaths. Those suburbs have street lighting, footpaths, pedestrian crossings and so on. I don't think it is comparable.

But anyway, before any argument ensues, it would be great to have figures for the number of kids to either walk to school in rural areas or walk to the school bus in rural areas.

I'm guessing very few. Sure it's dark in the midwinter anyway at the time they set off, just gets brighter quicker I think.

blanch152

mollser wrote: »

... and if we were to encourage more and more kids walk/cycle/scoot to school (which we should be), do you think having 4 months of dark mornings will encourage or hinder this? Likely that those few kids who do walk will then be chauffered, leading to more traffic problems:D

Oh, and take a walk around Ranelagh, Dundrum or any other suburb in the morning and you will see plenty upon plenty of very young kids walking to school, there are way way more than <10%.

Most kids nowadays have organised activity.

It is much more of a societal problem to get those who sit in offices all day outside and exercising in the evening, meaning summertime is better.

awec

See all these kids who supposedly won't be able to walk to school cause of the dark for 2 months?

How do they currently walk home from school in the winter, when it's dark when they're leaving?

Harry Palmr

I'd split the difference to be honest move the clock by 30 mins

blanch152

Laois_Man wrote: »

All year summertime was tested for two-years 50 years ago and it didn't work - it brought problems in December and January (e.g. children going to school in the dark, outdoor workers starting work in the dark, roads being more dangerous with frost getting an hour less to thaw) . Russia also attempted all year summertime only 8 years ago and had to revert the other way 3 years later.

50 years ago Ireland was a very different place.

Spanish Eyes

awec wrote: »

See all these kids who supposedly won't be able to walk to school cause of the dark for 2 months?

How do they currently walk home from school in the winter, when it's dark when they're leaving?

True, but the National Schools finish at 2.30pm or thereabouts, so the younger, more vulnerable kids are still in daylight.

I doubt many more than a handful of kids walk or cycle in rural areas in Winter anyway. No proof, but if anyone has any....

Duane Dibbley

So the Island of Ireland will have 2 different time zones for 6 months of the year?

mollser

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

True, but the National Schools finish at 2.30pm or thereabouts, so the younger, more vulnerable kids are still in daylight.

I doubt many more than a handful of kids walk or cycle in rural areas in Winter anyway. No proof, but if anyone has any....

Westport featured on that cycling show on RTE recently about the initiatives to use their new cycleways to encourage kids to cycle to school. It has been a great success!

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

Deleted User wrote: »

European Parliament has voted by 410-192 to scrap the March & October time changes in 2021. Not the final decision on this it should be noted, but hopefully another nail in the coffin of having to endure long dark winter evenings. Ridiculous that winter time has gone right to the last day of the month this year.


https://www.rte.ie/news/europe/2019/0326/1038689-eu-daylight-savings/

By not changing the time, won’t the winters stay the same as they are now? It’s the summers that will be different.

Personally I’d prefer year-round winter time. I already loathe the dark winter mornings. I hate the thought of post-9am darkness. But if we get to decide, it seems year-round summertime will win out so I’ll just have to get used to it.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

Laois_Man wrote: »

Not voting in the poll coz it doesn't have the option I would have voted for

The whole darn thing is a stupid idea - I wouldn't leave it the way it is, I'd just change winter time to occur from mid November to end January. Ten weeks - that's all it needs to be!

My son leaves for school at about 8:30am - I do not want him going out in the dark in Dec/Jan. I don't want to be starting work in the dark myself, with it dark again when I finish! That's even more depressing than what we do now.
Plus you'll have neighboring countries in some parts of Europe who'll choose the opposite timezone and will create an hour difference that never existed before - for a tiny island like Ireland to have two different time-zones is a bit ridiculous. Plus, it changes the overlap time in the working day for those of us working with American colleagues in American companies - perhaps an hour less overlap depending on which way we go. You'd have a lot of people shifting their day by one hour instead of shifting their clocks by one hour which renders the entire exercise utterly pointless for those. The EU wanted the effects to come into play this year until some complained that the whole thing actually has costs.

Exactly, for most of December and January, you’d be going to work in darkness and leaving it in darkness if we were on year-round summertime. I can’t understand why anyone would want that.

Hurrache

Laois_Man wrote: »

Where are the public going to be asked to choose? Are we going to have a referendum on it?

There was already a public consultation period.