EU to recommend abolishing DST

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

What great advantages would we gain? I can’t think of one thing that would make up for such dark mornings in winter.

I think most people just don’t see any advantage in bright mornings, all we do is trundle into work doesn’t matter a damn to me if it’s dark on the other hand it’s nice to have a bit of brightness in the evenings ok it won’t make a massive difference in dec and Jan but once feb hits there would already be a great stretch in the evening brightness if we were on summer time.

You need to stop looking at the two extremes of mid summer and dec and Jan. Yeah at the height of summer it doesn’t matter massively and in the middle of winter it’s dark a lot anyway but put wintertime all year and we face dark evenings all through spring and autumn and bright early when we are all in bed. Basically winter time gains you nothing but a bit of brightness in dec and Jan mornings when no one cares, summertime gains you brighter evenings all year round.

Fr Tod Umptious

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

The way it is now really is the best compromise. It’s a bit of hassle on the two days a year it happens but that’s all.

The best solution for Ireland would be start winter Time in late November and end it in late February.

That would get over the dark winter morning problem and give and extra bit of light in late autumn and early spring.

But that ain't going to happen.

klaaaz

jvan wrote: »

I think you have that wrong, if you want darker June evenings then you'll get the winter time it is the way it is now, ie 4.06 sunset at the earliest.
Late June evenings will give you 5.06pm sunset in winter.

Summertime all year round, sorry for confusion

I see no benefit in having that extra hour in the summertime at the detriment of having that extra hour afternoon of daylight in the winter.
So if it gets dark at 9pm in the summer instead of 10pm and it gets dark at 5pm instead of 4pm in Dec, i'm all for it!

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

Leroy Cuddly Warmonger wrote: »

I think most people just don’t see any advantage in bright mornings, all we do is trundle into work doesn’t matter a damn to me if it’s dark on the other hand it’s nice to have a bit of brightness in the evenings ok it won’t make a massive difference in dec and Jan but once feb hits there would already be a great stretch in the evening brightness if we were on summer time.

You need to stop looking at the two extremes of mid summer and dec and Jan. Yeah at the height of summer it doesn’t matter massively and in the middle of winter it’s dark a lot anyway but put wintertime all year and we face dark evenings all through spring and autumn and bright early when we are all in bed. Basically winter time gains you nothing but a bit of brightness in dec and Jan mornings when no one cares, summertime gains you brighter evenings all year round.

I loathe how dark the midwinter mornings are as it is. Post-9am darkness, I hate the thought of. And if you’re in a workplace with very little or no natural light (which is not unheard of), you’re talking basically not seeing daylight for six weeks unless you go outside on your lunch hour.

And I’m not looking at the two extremes. In a few posts, I’ve referenced late summer. Even in late and early summer, we have long days compared to most of the populated world. We do very well, brightness-wise all summer. I don’t see why it really matters that it’s gettting dark at a time of the day when people are winding down anyway. It actually is in keeping with circadian rhythm.

davidk1394

Sticking to summer time is will make winter absolutely miserable. What was wrong with the way it was ? Also the UK might stick with daylight saving time. This means there’s going to be a time zone on the island of Ireland

prunudo

klaaaz wrote: »

Summertime all year round, sorry for confusion

I see no benefit in having that extra hour in the summertime at the detriment of having that extra hour afternoon of daylight in the winter.
So if it gets dark at 9pm in the summer instead of 10pm and it gets dark at 5pm instead of 4pm in Dec, i'm all for it!

But you can't have that. Its 10pm in the summer and 5pm in winter or 9pm in summer and 4pm winter

highdef

Leroy Cuddly Warmonger wrote: »

You need to stop looking at the two extremes of mid summer and dec and Jan. Yeah at the height of summer it doesn’t matter massively and in the middle of winter it’s dark a lot anyway but put wintertime all year and we face dark evenings all through spring and autumn and bright early when we are all in bed. Basically winter time gains you nothing but a bit of brightness in dec and Jan mornings when no one cares, summertime gains you brighter evenings all year round.

September is very often a very good month and it's often still pleasant well into October. Think of those late September evenings where you go for a nice walk after work at about 18:00 - 18:30, enjoying the last of the nice summer like weather with the warmth of the evening rays of sun against your skin, helping you to relax after a tough day of the office. Well, in permanent wintertime, you can forget about them as the sun will either be just going over the horizon or else it will have already set depending on how near to the end of the month you are.

Our warmest evenings of the year often occur well into August, when the land has been heating right through the summer. If we moved to permanent wintertime, the sun will have set at between 19:30 - 20:00 around about mid August. If that was a post work BBQ at home after work, it doesn't give all that much time to set-up, get cooking, enjoy the company of friends/neighbours and then clean up after, all before it gets dark.

Personally, I spend most of the summer outdoors, when the weather permits. Even if June/July, I can be gardening past dusk, right until I can no longer work without artificial light. Taking an hour away from my evening would be horrible, especially in the spring period and early Autumn periods. April is a very busy month for me in the garden as spring is in full spring and there's a huge amount of work to do in the garden. The sun setting at a little after 19:00 in early April would give me shag all time after work to get my chores done. Mid autumn is another busy time when there's a lot of pruning, tidying, preparing for winter, etc to be done. With sunsets at about 18:00 at best at the start of the month with full time wintertime, it would mean I would only have the weekends to get my work done and I'd be even more reliant on the weather being good.

dxhound2005

highdef wrote: »

September is very often a very good month and it's often still pleasant well into October. Think of those late September evenings where you go for a nice walk after work at about 18:00 - 18:30, enjoying the last of the nice summer like weather with the warmth of the evening rays of sun against your skin, helping you to relax after a tough day of the office. Well, in permanent wintertime, you can forget about them as the sun will either be just going over the horizon or else it will have already set depending on how near to the end of the month you are.

Our warmest evenings of the year often occur well into August, when the land has been heating right through the summer. If we moved to permanent wintertime, the sun will have set at between 19:30 - 20:00 around about mid August. If that was a post work BBQ at home after work, it doesn't give all that much time to set-up, get cooking, enjoy the company of friends/neighbours and then clean up after, all before it gets dark.

Personally, I spend most of the summer outdoors, when the weather permits. Even if June/July, I can be gardening past dusk, right until I can no longer work without artificial light. Taking an hour away from my evening would be horrible, especially in the spring period and early Autumn periods. April is a very busy month for me in the garden as spring is in full spring and there's a huge amount of work to do in the garden. The sun setting at a little after 19:00 in early April would give me shag all time after work to get my chores done. Mid autumn is another busy time when there's a lot of pruning, tidying, preparing for winter, etc to be done. With sunsets at about 18:00 at best at the start of the month with full time wintertime, it would mean I would only have the weekends to get my work done and I'd be even more reliant on the weather being good.

The time on the clock is irrelevant if you want to keep gardening until the natural light fades out.

highdef

dxhound2005 wrote: »

The time on the clock is irrelevant if you want to keep gardening until the natural light fades out.

It is very relevant if I arrive home from work, have a bit of dinner and then have whatever time left until darkness to get my garden chores done. On most weekdays, my starting time is pretty much out of my control as my employers dictate what I do for most of the day.

klaaaz

jvan wrote: »

But you can't have that. Its 10pm in the summer and 5pm in winter or 9pm in summer and 4pm winter

10pm in summer and 5pm in winter is fine under the new proposals. As my original point, no-one will miss the loss of hour evening in the summer in contrast to the craving of that light in winter at 5pm in December.
As said, i'd happily trade/sacrifice that extra hour in summer for the hour of daylight in December so in December it would be 5pm darkness instead of 4pm darkness.

Fr Tod Umptious

Leroy Cuddly Warmonger wrote: »

I think most people just don’t see any advantage in bright mornings, all we do is trundle into work doesn’t matter a damn to me if it’s dark on the other hand it’s nice to have a bit of brightness in the evenings ok it won’t make a massive difference in dec and Jan but once feb hits there would already be a great stretch in the evening brightness if we were on summer time.

You need to stop looking at the two extremes of mid summer and dec and Jan. Yeah at the height of summer it doesn’t matter massively and in the middle of winter it’s dark a lot anyway but put wintertime all year and we face dark evenings all through spring and autumn and bright early when we are all in bed. Basically winter time gains you nothing but a bit of brightness in dec and Jan mornings when no one cares, summertime gains you brighter evenings all year round.

I'll give you two examples of who do

Parents getting kids to school and outdoor workers.

If it's pitch dark until 9.30 then kids are up and out to school in the dark
Parents are dropping kids to school in the dark, kids can't play outside in the school yard because it's dark
The kids that still walk to school will walk in the dark.

There is no upside to any of that.

Same for outdoor workers, anything before 9.30 will have to be done in the dark with extra lighting expense or not done at all.

Again zero upside.

dxhound2005

highdef wrote: »

It is very relevant if I arrive home from work, have a bit of dinner and then have whatever time left until darkness to get my garden chores done. On most weekdays, my starting time is pretty much out of my control as my employers dictate what I do for most of the day.

And some employers dictate that their workers have to be behind the counter in a shop until 11 pm.

facehugger99

davidk1394 wrote: »

Also the UK might stick with daylight saving time. This means there’s going to be a time zone on the island of Ireland

So what?

highdef

klaaaz wrote: »

10pm in summer and 5pm in winter is fine under the new proposals. As my original point, no-one will miss the loss of hour evening in the summer in contrast to the craving of that light in winter at 5pm in December.
As said, i'd happily trade/sacrifice that extra hour in summer for the hour of daylight in December so in December it would be 5pm darkness instead of 4pm darkness.

You have yourself very confused. Year round wintertime would result (again using Dublin as my example) in appoximate sunrise/sunset times of:

06:25/18:40: March (Spring) Equinox
03:55/20:55: June (Summer) Solstice
06:10/18:25: September (Autumn) Equinox
08:35/16:05: December (Winter) Solstice

awec

klaaaz wrote: »

Summertime all year round, sorry for confusion

I see no benefit in having that extra hour in the summertime at the detriment of having that extra hour afternoon of daylight in the winter.
So if it gets dark at 9pm in the summer instead of 10pm and it gets dark at 5pm instead of 4pm in Dec, i'm all for it!

You are still mixed up.

If it gets dark at 9pm instead of 10pm in the summer it will still get dark at 4pm in winter.

If you want an extra hour in the evenings in December then summer time is the schedule you want. You are replacing the hour of sun in the morning with an hour in the evening instead in December and January.

Basically, if we choose summertime:

We lose an hour of sun in the morning in December / January, and gain an hour of sun in the afternoon in December / January. The summer remains the same as today.

If we choose winter time:

We lose an hour of sun in the late evening in summer, and gain an hour of sun in the very early morning in summer. Winter time stays as it is today.

prunudo

klaaaz wrote: »

10pm in summer and 5pm in winter is fine under the new proposals. As my original point, no-one will miss the loss of hour evening in the summer in contrast to the craving of that light in winter at 5pm in December.
As said, i'd happily trade/sacrifice that extra hour in summer for the hour of daylight in December so in December it would be 5pm darkness instead of 4pm darkness.

But you're not trading anything. If you want 10pm summer evenings you will get 5pm winter sunsets.

awec

jvan wrote: »

But you're not trading anything. If you want 10pm summer evenings you will get 5pm winter sunsets.

Yes, exactly.

At the most basic level, if you want later sunsets then summer time is what you want.

If you want earlier sunrises, then winter time is what you want.

Franz Von Peppercorn

dxhound2005 wrote: »

The time on the clock is irrelevant if you want to keep gardening until the natural light fades out.

Of course the time on the clock matters. We have office hours, jobs, meetings, events that depend on the clock time not where the sun is.

highdef

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

Of course the time on the clock matters. We have office hours, jobs, meetings, events that depend on the clock time not where the sun is.

Indeed, the fading of natural light dictates when my light dependent outdoor activities cease but the actual time on the clock is what matters with regards to when my light dependent outdoor activities begin, during the working week.

Paddy Cow

klaaaz wrote: »

10pm in summer and 5pm in winter is fine under the new proposals. As my original point, no-one will miss the loss of hour evening in the summer in contrast to the craving of that light in winter at 5pm in December.
As said, i'd happily trade/sacrifice that extra hour in summer for the hour of daylight in December so in December it would be 5pm darkness instead of 4pm darkness.

That's not how it works. If you want the extra hour of daylight in December, you stick with summertime all year which means you gain an hour in winter evenings but don't lose any light in the summer.

dxhound2005

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

Of course the time on the clock matters. We have office hours, jobs, meetings, events that depend on the clock time not where the sun is.

Whether someone gets do do gardening for three hours instead of four shouldn't be such a big deal. I know people want to have the time regulated to suit their own purposes, but there are a lot of different lifestyles.

Franz Von Peppercorn

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Whether someone gets do do gardening for three hours instead of four shouldn't be such a big deal. I know people want to have the time regulated to suit their own purposes, but there are a lot of different lifestyles.

The time is being regulated so why wouldn’t people want it regulated to suit their own purposes? That’s what you want. You just like more evening darkness in summer. That’s what this is all about, how we regulate the time - do we choose summer or winter time. Neither is ideal, but most feel summer time is better.

dxhound2005

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

The time is being regulated so why wouldn’t people want it regulated to suit their own purposes? That’s what you want. You just like more evening darkness in summer. That’s what this is all about, how we regulate the time - do we choose summer or winter time. Neither is ideal, but most feel summer time is better.

I have no real preference. I think some people just like to be against any sort of change. Come back in 20 years time to reimpose twice yearly clock changes, and lots of people will be up in arms against that.

Franz Von Peppercorn

dxhound2005 wrote: »

I have no real preference. I think some people just like to be against any sort of change. Come back in 20 years time to reimpose twice yearly clock changes, and lots of people will be up in arms against that.

You seem to be hostile to summer time not the change.

I believe the opposite. If this goes through Northern European countries will try introduce the change again after a year or two, albeit with a reduced number of winter time months.

Harry Palmr

No matter which is adopted plenty will be unhappy and either will probably create effects that we now consider irrelevant but which turn out to be important.

Spanish Eyes

This will become in time, an urban v rural thing I think!

Watch the space. So how many rural kids actually HAVE to walk to school through the dark these days? Very few I would guess. Open to correction.

dxhound2005

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

You seem to be hostile to summer time not the change.

I believe the opposite. If this goes through Northern European countries will try introduce the change again after a year or two, albeit with a reduced number of winter time months.

The only place I ever saw the argument against 6 monthly time changes was on this thread. Are clocks changing in November and February or whatever really going to happen in Sweden?

Franz Von Peppercorn

dxhound2005 wrote: »

The only place I ever saw the argument against 6 monthly time changes was on this thread.

I mean the time changes are being abolished.

Are clocks changing in November and February or whatever really going to happen in Sweden?

What’s going to happen first is these countries choosing summertime or winter. If that doesn’t work, and i dont think it will, the time changes will come back with a reduced winter time. Winter time is less than summer time now anyway: 5 months rather than 6 in Europe and less in the US.

Infini

awec wrote: »

You are still mixed up.

If it gets dark at 9pm instead of 10pm in the summer it will still get dark at 4pm in winter.

If you want an extra hour in the evenings in December then summer time is the schedule you want. You are replacing the hour of sun in the morning with an hour in the evening instead in December and January.

Basically, if we choose summertime:

We lose an hour of sun in the morning in December / January, and gain an hour of sun in the afternoon in December / January. The summer remains the same as today.

If we choose winter time:

We lose an hour of sun in the late evening in summer, and gain an hour of sun in the very early morning in summer. Winter time stays as it is today.

There's a 3rd option though. We dont go winter or summer time but reinstate Irish Standard Time as a proper time zone which is 30min behind GMT. Move the clocks forward half an hour instead of a full hour. Means Sunrise and Sunset would be bang on 6am/pm during Late March/September. Was actually a proper time zone until the English abolished it during WW1 moving Dublin to GMT.

Should be said Russia brought in permenant summer time in 2014 I think and then abandoned it for permenant winter time after 3 years because it was too much of a pain.

Fr Tod Umptious

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

This will become in time, an urban v rural thing I think!

Watch the space. So how many rural kids actually HAVE to walk to school through the dark these days? Very few I would guess. Open to correction.

Just because the kids don't walk to school does not mean that driving to school in the dark is hazard free.

Anyone who has to pass a school in the morning will know what sort of traffic mayhem it brings.

Now add to the fact that it will be dark.

It makes it much more dangerous.

Come to think of it I don't believe our local primary school which is off the main road has street lights up to it.

It will need them if all year summer time is introduced.