EU to recommend abolishing DST

highdef

The local school around the corner from me had Street lights installed just last month. In fact, most of the village had no Street lights until a month ago so perhaps the council was prepping for this.... Probably just coincidence though

Hurrache

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

I'll give you two examples of who do

Parents getting kids to school
...........
Again zero upside.

I'm such a parent, and I'd be glad to see the back of winter time. You'd be aware that kids like to perform extra curricular activities outside of school hours, many outdoors based, and are curtailed because of the darker evenings?

The only people who can see zero upside to changing to summer time permanently are recluses or those who sit in front of a TV or gaming for every waking hour.

facehugger99

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Just because the kids don't walk to school does not mean that driving to school in the dark is hazard free.

Very little in life in "hazard-free".

If that's the standard you're aspiring to, you're destined for frustration.

mollser

Hurrache wrote: »

The only people who can see zero upside to changing to summer time permanently are recluses or those who sit in front of a TV or gaming for every waking hour.

Nice. Or perhaps those who like to get up early in the morning to get up and on with their day, perhaps get out in the great outdoors exercising and / or bring their kids to their early saturday / sunday morning outdoor sports activities during the winter.

I'm in favour of maintaining the status quo btw, it has been this way for a long time and for good reason.

Also, I honestly don't get what's so challenging about changing the clocks twice a year anyway!

I really hope we don't go permanent summer time. Going into work and leaving work both in the dark is absolutely horrible and will be constant for a few straight months if that's the way we go.

Hurrache

mollser wrote: »

Nice. Or perhaps those who like to get up early in the morning to get up and on with their day, perhaps get out in the great outdoors exercising and / or bring their kids to their early saturday / sunday morning outdoor sports activities during the winter.
!

In the Autumn or Winter getting up early to enjoy the outdoors has you getting up in the dark anyway.

And from experience very few outdoor kids activities on weekends start before 10, so again no issues there.

Hurrache

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I really hope we don't go permanent summer time. Going into work and leaving work both in the dark is absolutely horrible and will be constant for a few straight months if that's the way we go.

A 9 to 5 type job with a commute pretty much has you going to and from work in the dark as is.

Fr Tod Umptious

Hurrache wrote: »

I'm such a parent, and I'd be glad to see the back of winter time. You'd be aware that kids like to perform extra curricular activities outside of school hours, many outdoors based, and are curtailed because of the darker evenings?

The only people who can see zero upside to changing to summer time permanently are recluses or those who sit in front of a TV or gaming for every waking hour.

But in reality there is very little usable light in high winter in the evening.

The weather for the most part sucks which does not help either.

But on the flip side you are giving up light in the morning, before 9am, which you will find is much more valuable.

If we move to all summer time I can see people complaining about how dark the mornings are and how they are not getting the advantage of the so called bright evenings.

Fr Tod Umptious

facehugger99 wrote: »

Very little in life in "hazard-free".

If that's the standard you're aspiring to, you're destined for frustration.

There is a of thinking that because kids don't walk to school as much anymore having the morning bright is not as important as it was in years gone by.

This ignores the fact that more kids being driven to school presents other hazards that having more daylight could mitigate.

topper75

Deleted User wrote: »

I really hope we don't go permanent summer time. Going into work and leaving work both in the dark is absolutely horrible and will be constant for a few straight months if that's the way we go.

The dark mornings would only be for 7/8 weeks or so for 09.00 starters, about 4 weeks either side of the winter solstice. You'll be sleeping in every morning through your Christmas week anyway!

You wouldn't be leaving in the dark at all many evenings if you knock off at 17.30 like most do.

Of course if you typically work to 18.30 or 19.00, that isn't really something that seasonal time changes can address anyway.

topper75

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

There is a of thinking that because kids don't walk to school as much anymore having the morning bright is not as important as it was in years gone by.

This ignores the fact that more kids being driven to school presents other hazards that having more daylight could mitigate.

I don't know a single schoolyard in my area without lighting.

What are these other hazards you refer to?

Fr Tod Umptious

topper75 wrote: »

I don't know a single schoolyard in my area without lighting.

What are these other hazards you refer to?

Lots of cars coming and going, lots of kids coming and going.

If anyone is familiar with dropping off kids to school in the morning they will know how busy it is and also how disorganized it can be (depending on the school obviously)

Now add to that that it will be dark.

As I said there is zero upside.

mollser

Hurrache wrote: »

And from experience very few outdoor kids activities on weekends start before 10, so again no issues there.

Really? Most of the outdoor stuff is at 9am! Parkruns are at 9:30am. I personally like to get out for a cycle as early as possible so i can be home for family stuff for as much of the day as possible. I know a lot of people who do the same with golf.

The whole mental health side of this waking in the dark for so many months of the year has to be an issue. Beautiful these days waking at 6:30 in brightness.

As I say, the status quo is perfect as is!

.......

Hurrache wrote: »

And from experience very few outdoor kids activities on weekends start before 10, so again no issues there.

Itd be madness to base it on weekends though when they comprise just 2 days of the week.

Most people I know get up between 5am-7am 5 days per week and are in bed by 10pm (with kids in bed earlier) so there is a far greater advantage in having brighter mornings in winter than late bright evenings in summer.

Paddy Cow

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

But in reality there is very little usable light in high winter in the evening.

The weather for the most part sucks which does not help either.

But on the flip side you are giving up light in the morning, before 9am, which you will find is much more valuable.

If we move to all summer time I can see people complaining about how dark the mornings are and how they are not getting the advantage of the so called bright evenings.

I won't be. I know there will be dark mornings in Dec/Jan but I'm willing to sacrifice that for the extra light in the evenings in Nov/Feb/Mar.

November is my least favourite month of the year simply because the clocks go back and the sudden loss of an hours light in the evening is jarring and depressing. At lest in December there is christmas to look forward to and when January hits I start looking forward to spring.

kenmc

Summer time year round is the only sensible option.
- the winter time evening commute, when people are tired, gets underway while it's still bright. This would be safer for secondary school kids particularly getting home in brightness.
- yes the winter mornings are dark a bit longer, but it's always getting brighter.
- at the weekend parents can have a bit of a lie in and still get 8 hours of daylight (9-5ish) for kids to do stuff outdoors rather than missing an hour of daylight by doing so. Energy saving by leaving the lights off an extra hour in the evenings too.
- lots of schools already start at 8:15 or 8:30 am, so the whole "oh but the kids in the morning going to school, they're all going to die horrific deaths cos it'll still be dark when they're going to school", well that's the case already for many, I've not heard it an issue.
- lovely long summer evenings sitting outside by the BBQ watching the sun set with a glass of wine.
/discussion

highdef

kenmc wrote: »

Summer time year round is the only sensible option.
- the winter time evening commute, when people are tired, gets underway while it's still bright. This would be safer for secondary school kids particularly getting home in brightness.
- yes the winter mornings are dark a bit longer, but it's always getting brighter.
- at the weekend parents can have a bit of a lie in and still get 8 hours of daylight (9-5ish) for kids to do stuff outdoors rather than missing an hour of daylight by doing so. Energy saving by leaving the lights off an extra hour in the evenings too.
- lots of schools already start at 8:15 or 8:30 am, so the whole "oh but the kids in the morning going to school, they're all going to die horrific deaths cos it'll still be dark when they're going to school", well that's the case already for many, I've not heard it an issue.
- lovely long summer evenings sitting outside by the BBQ watching the sun set with a glass of wine.
/discussion

Agree with all your points. Leaving work at 17:30 in mid November and it would only be sunset then so would be still bright for most/all of my commute home. Leaving home around 08:00 in mid November and although the sun would not be quite above the horizon, it would be twilight and it would get progressively brighter during my drive with the sun above the horizon be the time I arrive to work.

The same would apply from mid-January onwards, albeit with the sunrise being a bit later at that point but as I'm commuting to work, it's company time as far as I'm concerned.

It's really only around 4 weeks each side of the winter solstice that the majority of people may not be able to enjoy the longer evenings due to work commitments. For most of November, the end of January through to the end of March is when the majority of the working population will see a benefit in the amount of useful personal time light in the evening after work.....we're talking about 3 extra months of the year where you can do stuff after work or at least be able to commute home in daylight.

If I was a teacher, I'd be delighted with the promise of useful light after work all year round.

For me, personally, taking away those never ending summer evenings would be horrible and it's one of the things that keeps me from moving to a climate with nicer weather. When we get fine weather in June/July/August, those long evenings are a godsend. Having to retire indoors at around 19:30 on a sultry late August evening due to it getting dark is not something that I would ever punish someone with.

.......

kenmc wrote: »

- lovely long summer evenings sitting outside by the BBQ watching the sun set with a glass of wine.

My late evening activities tend to work better by cover of darkness

lawred2

kenmc wrote: »

Summer time year round is the only sensible option.
- the winter time evening commute, when people are tired, gets underway while it's still bright. This would be safer for secondary school kids particularly getting home in brightness.
- yes the winter mornings are dark a bit longer, but it's always getting brighter.
- at the weekend parents can have a bit of a lie in and still get 8 hours of daylight (9-5ish) for kids to do stuff outdoors rather than missing an hour of daylight by doing so. Energy saving by leaving the lights off an extra hour in the evenings too.
- lots of schools already start at 8:15 or 8:30 am, so the whole "oh but the kids in the morning going to school, they're all going to die horrific deaths cos it'll still be dark when they're going to school", well that's the case already for many, I've not heard it an issue.
- lovely long summer evenings sitting outside by the BBQ watching the sun set with a glass of wine.
/discussion

And golfing/tennis etc at 10PM

For me losing the long evenings would break my heart. I lived in Boston for a while and it was dark by nine in the height of summer. I struggled with it to be honest.

facehugger99

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Lots of cars coming and going, lots of kids coming and going.

If anyone is familiar with dropping off kids to school in the morning they will know how busy it is and also how disorganized it can be (depending on the school obviously)

Now add to that that it will be dark.

As I said there is zero upside.

I certainly don't think we should be arranging our clocks around the yummy-mummies dropping off Quentin and Millicent in their SUV's.

From a quick survey at work, the over-whelming majority prefer year-round summertime, with only one contrarian expressing a preference for winter-time.

Hurrache

....... wrote: »

Itd be madness to base it on weekends though when they comprise just 2 days of the week.
.

I agree, but my response was based on another poster mentioning them.

facehugger99

facehugger99 wrote: »

I certainly don't think we should be arranging our clocks around the yummy-mummies dropping off Quentin and Millicent in their SUV's.

From a quick survey at work, the over-whelming majority prefer year-round summertime, with only one contrarian expressing a preference for winter-time.

The poll is clearly showing this also. The majority of people really don’t care about an extra bit of darkness in the morning when they are only going to work during the week or sleeping past it anyway on weekends. On the other hand having a extra light in the evenings is far more beneficial and it really would make a big difference in months like oct, Nov and feb, March. Even in dec and Jan there would be extra light for kids to play outside etc.

Im not a morning person at all so personally the darker mornings will make no difference to me as it’s after 9 before I leave for work anyway (and stay in bed well past this at weekends) but on the other hand as I don’t start early I work later so the extra light in the evenings will really make a big difference to me particularly in spring and autumn and on weekends or time off during dec and Jan where the extra hour of brightness in the afternoon will definitely be beneficial.

CelticRambler

Anyone arguing in favour of "winter time" on the basis of getting children to school is on a losing streak - the next Big Thing is to shift school hours later into the day because (believe it or not) children - especially teenagers - don't function well in the morning. There are a few schools dotted around the UK that have already adopted this (11am starts) and there's a town in Austria or Bavaria where all the schools are now on teen-friendly time.

There ya go - plenty of time for the sun to come up in the winter before anyone has to take to the roads.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

But in reality there is very little usable light in high winter in the evening.

The weather for the most part sucks which does not help either.

But on the flip side you are giving up light in the morning, before 9am, which you will find is much more valuable.

If we move to all summer time I can see people complaining about how dark the mornings are and how they are not getting the advantage of the so called bright evenings.

I can see this happening too. I sadly think summertime will win out if we get to choose but I think people are underestimating just how depressing the darker winter mornings will be and how little the extra bit of brightness in the summer really matters in a country where we already get long summer days, even at the end of the season.

Hurrache wrote: »

The only people who can see zero upside to changing to summer time permanently are recluses or those who sit in front of a TV or gaming for every waking hour.

Aaaah, no. I can’t exercise now because of illness, but before that, I was an avid cyclist and it didn’t matter whether it was dark or bright. I’d prefer year-round wintertime if we have to choose.

.......

Leroy Cuddly Warmonger wrote: »

The majority of people really don’t care about an extra bit of darkness in the morning when they are only going to work during the week or sleeping past it anyway on weekends.

Except that is not the case for the majority of people, especially those with kids.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

highdef wrote: »

Agree with all your points. Leaving work at 17:30 in mid November and it would only be sunset then so would be still bright for most/all of my commute home. Leaving home around 08:00 in mid November and although the sun would not be quite above the horizon, it would be twilight and it would get progressively brighter during my drive with the sun above the horizon be the time I arrive to work.

The same would apply from mid-January onwards, albeit with the sunrise being a bit later at that point but as I'm commuting to work, it's company time as far as I'm concerned.

It's really only around 4 weeks each side of the winter solstice that the majority of people may not be able to enjoy the longer evenings due to work commitments. For most of November, the end of January through to the end of March is when the majority of the working population will see a benefit in the amount of useful personal time light in the evening after work.....we're talking about 3 extra months of the year where you can do stuff after work or at least be able to commute home in daylight.

If I was a teacher, I'd be delighted with the promise of useful light after work all year round.

For me, personally, taking away those never ending summer evenings would be horrible and it's one of the things that keeps me from moving to a climate with nicer weather. When we get fine weather in June/July/August, those long evenings are a godsend. Having to retire indoors at around 19:30 on a sultry late August evening due to it getting dark is not something that I would ever punish someone with.

I love those balmy dark evenings in warmer climates. It being dark and warm is a beautiful thing. One of the things I hate about our long summer days is that if it’s rainy or overcast, you are looking at that gloom for a very long time. It’s something I’ve always found quite depressing. We get less rain in Ireland than is made out but we get plenty of overcast or cloudy days. When it gets dark, the gloom is finally disguised. Sure, the long days are nice when the weather is fine but I’ve been on this planet for 36 years and most of my summers have been mostly cloudy. Let’s not kid ourselves that we get regular decent summers.

Fr Tod Umptious

highdef wrote: »

Agree with all your points. Leaving work at 17:30 in mid November and it would only be sunset then so would be still bright for most/all of my commute home. Leaving home around 08:00 in mid November and although the sun would not be quite above the horizon, it would be twilight and it would get progressively brighter during my drive with the sun above the horizon be the time I arrive to work.

The same would apply from mid-January onwards, albeit with the sunrise being a bit later at that point but as I'm commuting to work, it's company time as far as I'm concerned.

It's really only around 4 weeks each side of the winter solstice that the majority of people may not be able to enjoy the longer evenings due to work commitments. For most of November, the end of January through to the end of March is when the majority of the working population will see a benefit in the amount of useful personal time light in the evening after work.....we're talking about 3 extra months of the year where you can do stuff after work or at least be able to commute home in daylight.

If I was a teacher, I'd be delighted with the promise of useful light after work all year round.

For me, personally, taking away those never ending summer evenings would be horrible and it's one of the things that keeps me from moving to a climate with nicer weather. When we get fine weather in June/July/August, those long evenings are a godsend. Having to retire indoors at around 19:30 on a sultry late August evening due to it getting dark is not something that I would ever punish someone with.

Ok below is my post from 13-11-2018, 16:41

In all year summer time it would be 17:40, and there would be no usable light beyond 17:30

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

17:40 All year summertime

Just home from work

Streetlights on
Car lights on
House lights on

Wet outside

Where is that extra hour I was promised ?

It's mostly dark already

It's only the 13th of November.

kenmc

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Ok below is my post from 13-11-2018, 16:41

In all year summer time it would be 17:40, and there would be no usable light beyond 17:30

The extra hour you were promised extended the usable light from 16.30 to 17.30. just because you didn't see it doesn't mean it didn't happen.
While you were still in work, kids were able to train for rugby, hockey, soccer in daylight, or walk or cycle home safely. Or possibly help walk an old neighbor to/from the shops or take their dog for a walk

If dark mornings don't matter and we all like late evenings how about summer time +1?

Perhaps I am being a nerd about this but summer time would put us 1hr 30mins 'wrong' in astronomical terms, which is quite a lot. Even more in the West.

At present the process is like asking toddlers their opinion. Do you want to stop the fuss of changing clocks? "yes!" Do you want nasty winter time or lovely summer time? "Summer!" I don't think people are putting much thought into this.

It will be very dark in the morning for several months if we have year round summer time. I suspect that a lot of people who say they don't care now will start to care soon enough. On the other hand if we pick winter time (and don't rule it out, would be entirely in keeping with the Govt to put aligning with Europe at the top of the criteria) we will be clamouring to re-introduce changing the clocks the first time it doesn't happen.

I'm genuinely not sure which option I prefer, but I would certainly have preferred to keep things as they were.

Fr Tod Umptious

Deleted User wrote: »

If dark mornings don't matter and we all like late evenings how about summer time +1?

Perhaps I am being a nerd about this but summer time would put us 1hr 30mins 'wrong' in astronomical terms, which is quite a lot. Even more in the West.

At present the process is like asking toddlers their opinion. Do you want to stop the fuss of changing clocks? "yes!" Do you want nasty winter time or lovely summer time? "Summer!" I don't think people are putting much thought into this.

It will be very dark in the morning for several months if we have year round summer time. I suspect that a lot of people who say they don't care now will start to care soon enough. On the other hand if we pick winter time (and don't rule it out, would be entirely in keeping with the Govt to put aligning with Europe at the top of the criteria) we will be clamouring to re-introduce changing the clocks the first time it doesn't happen.

I'm genuinely not sure which option I prefer, but I would certainly have preferred to keep things as they were.

This
Changing clocks is not a huge inconvenience.
Due to our geography location it's the sensible thing to do.