EU to recommend abolishing DST

Franz Von Peppercorn

[Deleted User] wrote: »

If dark mornings don't matter and we all like late evenings how about summer time +1?

Perhaps I am being a nerd about this but summer time would put us 1hr 30mins 'wrong' in astronomical terms, which is quite a lot. Even more in the West.

At present the process is like asking toddlers their opinion. Do you want to stop the fuss of changing clocks? "yes!" Do you want nasty winter time or lovely summer time? "Summer!" I don't think people are putting much thought into this.

It will be very dark in the morning for several months if we have year round summer time. I suspect that a lot of people who say they don't care now will start to care soon enough. On the other hand if we pick winter time (and don't rule it out, would be entirely in keeping with the Govt to put aligning with Europe at the top of the criteria) we will be clamouring to re-introduce changing the clocks the first time it doesn't happen.

I'm genuinely not sure which option I prefer, but I would certainly have preferred to keep things as they were.

This is why the EU messed up. Sure DST/time change is falling out of favour in parts of the world who shouldn’t have adopted it to begin with but we’ve had it for 100 years, give or take a few years where we went double summer time. Nobody likes the actual day of change, particularly Spring as we lose an hours sleep but it’s a good solution overall.

ToddyDoody

First DDT and now DST. It's this type of stuff that has the British outraged.

5starpool

ToddyDoody wrote: »

First DDT and now DST. It's this type of stuff that has the British outraged.

It doesn't take much to outrage most of them in fairness.

ToddyDoody

5starpool wrote: »

It doesn't take much to outrage most of them in fairness.

Born to be Riled.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

CelticRambler wrote: »

What's this fixation with working (indoors) during the hours of daylight? I gave up that nonsense years ago - so much nicer to work (and play) at night and be able to make use of the daylight for daylighty things.

So many slaves to the system on this thread ... :cool:

Yes, yes, the sheeple. :rolleyes: Working nights brings its own disadvantages.

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....... wrote: »

Based on you actually being in the minority with going to work so late and sleeping in at the weekends.

Most working people I know are up between 5am and 7am and dont sleep in on the weekend.

Particularly people with kids - who have to be up getting them to creche and definitely are not sleeping in ANY days.

Most working people I know do not get up between 5am and 7am, I’d find it very hard to believe that it’s the case for you either. Getting up before 7am would not be the norm in general never mind before 6am which would be extremely rare.

Most people would get up between 7:30 and 8:30 imo, I’m not far outside this as I generally get up between 8:30 and 8:45. You might have some people dropping to chreches early but I don’t think that’s the norm. Same if you look at school drops, most schools start between 9 and 9:30 am so anyone doing a school drop for 9am or even more so those with say 9:20 am school starts are going to work at not that much a different time to me.

As for weekends a large number of people do sleep in at weekends including those with kids so you are wide of the mark there. The majority of people aren’t venturing outside at weekends until 10 or 11am and would benefit far more from the extra light in the evening on winter weekends than when they are in bed or at the very least still inside the house.

prunudo

I presume you either live in either the city centre or very close to your work place if you think most people don't wake until 7.30 - 8.30.
Id say most people who are living in the greater dublin area and commuting are up closer to 6am. Living in north Wicklow you'd be amazed how busy the n11 is at 6.30am

highdef

I live in North Kildare, near Enfield. For a 9am start in Dublin, I get up at about 07:00. I sometimes have a shower but always go for a walk with the dog for 20 to 30 minutes. Bowl of cereal and coffee takes 5 minutes and I'm on the road before 08:00, earlier if no shower that morning.

07:00 gives me ample time to do several things before I set off. If I had no dog, I'd probably get up at 07:30. I'm about 40km from my workplace.

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Leroy Cuddly Warmonger wrote: »

Most working people I know do not get up between 5am and 7am, I’d find it very hard to believe that it’s the case for you either. Getting up before 7am would not be the norm in general never mind before 6am which would be extremely rare.

We have a couple of people in the office who live within 2-3km of the job - they get up around 8am for a 9am start. Everyone else has commutes ranging from 30 minutes to 90 minutes plus some would be dropping kids off to creche. So for a 9am start they are all up between 6-7am. I myself get up at 6am, my husband gets up at 5.30am - and we have done for years. We dont even have kids. Pretty much the entire population of workers in Dublin city centre are facing long daily commutes. Its a rarity for people to live right next to their job and given the vast majority of jobs are on a 9-5ish schedule it is obvious that most working people are up before 7am to get to work.

Leroy Cuddly Warmonger wrote: »

Most people would get up between 7:30 and 8:30 imo, I’m not far outside this as I generally get up between 8:30 and 8:45. You might have some people dropping to chreches early but I don’t think that’s the norm. Same if you look at school drops, most schools start between 9 and 9:30 am so anyone doing a school drop for 9am or even more so those with say 9:20 am school starts are going to work at not that much a different time to me.

I think you badly underestimate how long it takes to get kids ready and get them into creche while also getting yourself ready for work. Our local creche opens at 6am and is at its busiest between 6am and 7am with people dropping kids off. The M50 is almost as busy at 6.30am now as it is at 8am. We are at almost full employment.

Leroy Cuddly Warmonger wrote: »

As for weekends a large number of people do sleep in at weekends including those with kids so you are wide of the mark there. The majority of people aren’t venturing outside at weekends until 10 or 11am and would benefit far more from the extra light in the evening on winter weekends than when they are in bed or at the very least still inside the house.

When was the last time you were outside before 10 or 11am on a weekend morning? Again, I think you badly underestimate how many people are up at normal times at the weekend.

My gym is jammers at 8am on a Saturday morning, there is a queue of people waiting for it to open up. Park runs are mad busy at 9.30am. People are shipping kids around the place. When I used to work in retail we would have people waiting outside the shop for a 9am start.

The whole world isnt sleeping late despite you extrapolating from your own experience only - just get up early and go out some Saturday and you will be surprised to see how busy it is at 8am.

awec

Leroy Cuddly Warmonger wrote: »

Most working people I know do not get up between 5am and 7am, I’d find it very hard to believe that it’s the case for you either. Getting up before 7am would not be the norm in general never mind before 6am which would be extremely rare.

Most people would get up between 7:30 and 8:30 imo, I’m not far outside this as I generally get up between 8:30 and 8:45. You might have some people dropping to chreches early but I don’t think that’s the norm. Same if you look at school drops, most schools start between 9 and 9:30 am so anyone doing a school drop for 9am or even more so those with say 9:20 am school starts are going to work at not that much a different time to me.

As for weekends a large number of people do sleep in at weekends including those with kids so you are wide of the mark there. The majority of people aren’t venturing outside at weekends until 10 or 11am and would benefit far more from the extra light in the evening on winter weekends than when they are in bed or at the very least still inside the house.

Spoken like someone who doesn't have kids.

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awec wrote: »

Spoken like someone who doesn't have kids.

Or a commute.

jvan

jvan wrote: »

I presume you either live in either the city centre or very close to your work place if you think most people don't wake until 7.30 - 8.30.
Id say most people who are living in the greater dublin area and commuting are up closer to 6am. Living in north Wicklow you'd be amazed how busy the n11 is at 6.30am

You presume wrong, live in a rural area 25km drive from work in Galway city. I have no traffic issues though as my work hours are flexible and I travel to work after peak traffic and travel home after peak traffic also. Far too many employers are still needlessly enforcing strict start times, it’s madness really forcing people out very early and in the work of traffic etc.

That being said lots of jobs are flexible nowadays too particularly in tech etc. I’m over 10 years working and have never had to adhere to start/finish times at work across different employers also.

Pinksandblues

I think there's pros and cons to both winter and summer time.

An hour of brightness in the winters evenings would be lovely but realistically for many people it will be an hour's brightness that they may not see or enjoy. They may be stuck late in work or commuting and travelling. Morning times are a battle and I think if we were to stay on summer time, the winter mornings would be very hard. Probably not just for me but for others too. My local town gets busy early. People going to work and school. Delivery trucks parked and many shops and pubs getting deliveries. I know there is street lighting but still on a bad, wet or windy morning, it will be harder for people. People who start work early may go out in a morning break for 10 or 10.30 am and it would only be getting bright. If the weather is bad it will be very grey and dull. ☹️.

I would like summer time but I would prefer winter time to be kept for the winter mornings.

Mantis Toboggan

If we go with summertime as expected on the darkest day of the year the sun would rise at 09.30. I think I could live with that for a few days if it means extra brightness in the evenings after work.

Paddy Cow

Pinksandblues wrote: »

I think there's pros and cons to both winter and summer time.

An hour of brightness in the winters evenings would be lovely but realistically for many people it will be an hour's brightness that they may not see or enjoy. They may be stuck late in work or commuting and travelling. Morning times are a battle and I think if we were to stay on summer time, the winter mornings would be very hard. Probably not just for me but for others too. My local town gets busy early. People going to work and school. Delivery trucks parked and many shops and pubs getting deliveries. I know there is street lighting but still on a bad, wet or windy morning, it will be harder for people. People who start work early may go out in a morning break for 10 or 10.30 am and it would only be getting bright. If the weather is bad it will be very grey and dull. ☹️.

I would like summer time but I would prefer winter time to be kept for the winter mornings.

I think there is a two month period that is a dark, depressing mess and winter/summer time won't change that. It's the months before and after, that would benefit from summertime. November, January, February and March would be a lot better with the extra hour in the evening.

I only learned this year that while 22nd December is the shortest day of the year, it's around the 12th (or maybe it was 15th) that has the earliest sunrise, so by the time Christmas is over, the stretch has already started in the evening. I watched out for it this year and it's true!

Paddy Cow

^^ that should have been sunset, not sunrise, otherwise the post doesn't make sense

prunudo

Paddy Cow wrote: »

I think there is a two month period that is a dark, depressing mess and winter/summer time won't change that. It's the months before and after, that would benefit from summertime. November, January, February and March would be a lot better with the extra hour in the evening.

I only learned this year that while 22nd December is the shortest day of the year, it's around the 12th (or maybe it was 15th) that has the earliest sunrise, so by the time Christmas is over, the stretch has already started in the evening. I watched out for it this year and it's true!

Yeah and the mornings don't start getting brighter until Jan 2nd so the January mornings will feel very bad.
But all said and done, I'd choose summertime, it be a shame to loose the long summer evenings

SPDUB

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Leo said that we wouldn't have different time zone to NI.

So either we follow the UK, or NI has a different time zone to GB, or we annex it.

So what's the penalty if we keep in line with NI .

And nobody in the EU can claim it's unexpected given the situation about the backstop

Paddy Cow

jvan wrote: »

Yeah and the mornings don't start getting brighter until Jan 2nd so the January mornings will feel very bad.
But all said and done, I'd choose summertime, it be a shame to loose the long summer evenings

I never really notice the mornings. It's always dark when I get up and the lights are on until I leave. It'll probably be strange when it's still dark at 9am but I don't think it's going to bother me that much. It's the evenings I hate. Sometimes in the winter when the weather is bad and it's overcast, it feels dark and gloomy at only half three. I know my choice for summertime is selfish but so is everyone's choice on this thread

Mutant z

This confuses the hell out of me so when DST is abolised does that mean it will get darker an hour earlier in the summer than it currently does and stay brighter an hour later during the winter or is it already supposed to be that time when they push the clocks forward for the Summer and simply put them back in the winters for the brighter mornings for those travelling to work and school. How will it work when DST is abolished because im finding it confusing about what the real time is supposed to be without changing the clocks.

Paddy Cow

Mutant z wrote: »

This confuses the hell out of me so when DST is abolised does that mean it will get darker an hour earlier in the summer than it currently does and stay brighter an hour later during the winter or is it already supposed to be that time when they push the clocks forward for the Summer and simply put them back in the winters for the brighter mornings for those travelling to work and school. How will it work when DST is abolished because im finding it confusing about what the real time is supposed to be without changing the clocks.

No. If we chose to get rid of DST, then we have to pick one clock change to stick with all year round and will have to pick between either brighter summer evenings or brighter winter mornings.

If we stay on wintertime, we will lose an hour of daylight in the summer, so it will be bright until 9.30 in June. In the middle of winter, it won't get bright in the morning until 8.30. This is the time we are on now.

If we stay on summertime, we will gain an hour of daylight in the summer, so it will be bright until 10.30 in June. In the middle of winter, it won't get bright in the morning until 9.30. This is the time we are moving to on Sunday and the time that most people seem to want to keep.

Hope that clears it up, even I'm getting confused at this stage lol :pac:

Mutant z

Well in that case i would opt for the summer time i like the the long drawn out evenings how they are i really hope it stays that way as opposed to losing an extra hour of sunlight in the evening which doesn't appeal to me at all.

Fr Tod Umptious

Paddy Cow wrote: »

I never really notice the mornings. It's always dark when I get up and the lights are on until I leave. It'll probably be strange when it's still dark at 9am but I don't think it's going to bother me that much. It's the evenings I hate. Sometimes in the winter when the weather is bad and it's overcast, it feels dark and gloomy at only half three. I know my choice for summertime is selfish but so is everyone's choice on this thread

In full time summer time it will be dark and gloomy at only half four.

But in the mornings when it's just getting bright at 8.30 -8.45 or so when people are on the last half hour or so of the commute/school run it will still be pitch dark, a full hour away from anything resembling bright.

I think after a few years of all year summer time people are going to be disappointed with the evenings and sick of the mornings.

Keep things as they are, or reduce winter time by a month or 6 weeks.

Fr Tod Umptious

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

In full time summer time it will be dark and gloomy at only half four.

But in the mornings when it's just getting bright at 8.30 -8.45 or so when people are on the last half hour or so of the commute/school run it will still be pitch dark, a full hour away from anything resembling bright.

I think after a few years of all year summer time people are going to be disappointed with the evenings and sick of the mornings.

Keep things as they are, or reduce winter time by a month or 6 weeks.

Your obsessed with the morning, I really can’t see why you care if it’s dark or not as you trudge into work for the day.

highdef

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

In full time summer time it will be dark and gloomy at only half four.

This is a worst case scenario with the criteria being that it would have to be an extremely dull evening (probably lashing rain) AND it needs to be close enough to the time of earliest sunset....ie: early/mid December. Even with the earliest sunset time of 17:06 in Dublin, this would still mean that it won't be dark for a few minutes after that, even on the dullest and wettest of days.

Don't forget that in the winter time, Dublin has one of the earliest sunsets in the country for any of the larger cities (eg: Cork, Limerick, Galway, etc). Those in the south and southwest enjoy noticeably longer days in winter. For example, the earliest sunset in Valentia (Kerry) in December is currently 16:30 which would equate to 17:30 on the shortest day of the year in all year summertime, meaning usable light till about 18:00 on a clear day.

But let's not keep emphasising the time of sunrise/sunset on the very shortest day. 4 weeks or more before and after and the longer evenings become even more useful with the later sunrises become less of an issue with those that insist that it even is a major issue.

Take, for example, mid February. By the time we get to this time of year I am getting pretty sick of the early darkness, having arrived from from work every day for three and a half months to full darkness and no chance of doing anything useful outdoors. From the time that the clocks go back at the end of October till the 15th of February, the latest time of sunset 17:35. It sets about half an hour before that at the end of October. As I get home at around 18:00 (a fairly typical time for many, I would say), that's three and a half months of doing nothing useful outdoors after work on weekdays for nearly 1/3 of the year. In fact, currently it's not until early March before I have a chance of seeing the sun set when I get home.

Stay on summer time and sunset is 18:00 or later from the latter end of January (giving another half hour or so of usable light on a clear day). In short, I get a kick start on my post-work outdoor activities a full month earlier, if not more, than is currently the case.

If I lived in Galway or Cork, I would get to enjoy arriving home to full daylight from the last third of January (22nd/20th January respectively would be an 18:00 sunset), should we stay in summertime all year round. By the end of February, Cork and Limerick (and everywhere around that latitude/longitude) would have sunset at 19:00 or later. That's a massive increase in usable personal time light

facehugger99

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

I think after a few years of all year summer time people are going to be disappointed with the evenings and sick of the mornings.

There's no way people are going to trade the extra brightness in the evenings of November, February and March for a bit of extra morning sun in December.

Once we change we'll never go back - it should have happened decades ago TBH.

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Leroy Cuddly Warmonger wrote: »

Your obsessed with the morning, I really can’t see why you care if it’s dark or not as you trudge into work for the day.

The morning is more important because its the start of the day.

On any given morning I will have travelled for 30 minutes, had just over an hour in the gym done and showered, dressed, make up and breakfast done before 8.30pm.

I dont trudge into work personally, I bounce in full of energy because Ive already been up for 3 hours!

highdef

....... wrote: »

The morning is more important because its the start of the day.

On any given morning I will have travelled for 30 minutes, had just over an hour in the gym done and showered, dressed, make up and breakfast done before 8.30pm.

I dont trudge into work personally, I bounce in full of energy because Ive already been up for 3 hours!

I'm guessing you mean 08:30/8.30am??? In any case, I don't see why an extra hour of morning darkness in winter would affect you on a work day. You go to the gym, shower, dressed, make up and breakfast done before heading into work. None of the above will suffer if it's dark outside while you carry out all those indoor tasks so based on that, the morning brightness is of no real benefit to you so that means you can enjoy any benefits after you finish work instead, when work is behind you for the day and you have the evening to do as you please

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highdef wrote: »

I'm guessing you mean 08:30/8.30am??? In any case, I don't see why an extra hour of morning darkness in winter would affect you on a work day. You go to the gym, shower, dressed, make up and breakfast done before heading into work. none of the above will suffer if it's dark outside while you carry out those tasks so based on that, the morning brightness is of no real benefit to you so that means you can enjoy any benefits after you finish work instead, when work is behind you for the day and you have the evening to do as you please

I did mean 8.30am thanks!

Because there is little worse than conducting your morning business in the dark IMO - one of the reasons that Sweden has the highest suicide rate is due to so much darkness in winter.

Im up and about from 6am winter and summer so thats when I would get the benefit of the extra hour. Im in bed asleep by 10pm winter and summer so staying bright til 10.30pm is just a hindrence to me.

Franz Von Peppercorn

....... wrote: »

I did mean 8.30am thanks!

Because there is little worse than conducting your morning business in the dark IMO - one of the reasons that Sweden has the highest suicide rate is due to so much darkness in winter.

Im up and about from 6am winter and summer so thats when I would get the benefit of the extra hour. Im in bed asleep by 10pm winter and summer so staying bright til 10.30pm is just a hindrence to me.

If you get up at 6 am it’s going to be dark all winter, DST or not. Only in spring ie March would year round summertime start to make a difference at that hour, Sunrise will start at 6:30 in early April not mid March.

High summer won’t matter as its bright before 6 either way.