EU to recommend abolishing DST

Nqp15hhu

Deleted User wrote: »

That’s interesting!

It’s actually the best time to move the clocks to summertime as around then we have gained an hour in the morning. We can afford to lose it again temporarily particularly as the days length is accelerated.

Feb 1 is a bit too early.

Yeah I was up yesterday morning and it was bright at 6:30! We should’ve put our clocks forward a while ago!

Nqp15hhu

Zebra3 wrote: »

Boo hoo.

So you want people in Northern Ireland to suffer! Nice!

Nqp15hhu

MJohnston wrote: »

This whole UK togetherness bull**** is also meaningless for another reason - the UK will almost certainly ditch Daylight Savings too.

My opinion is that we should be an hour ahead of the UK and France due to our geographical position, with Spain, Portugal and us forming a new UTC-1 time zone.

Would genuinely be an advantage for a country trying to attract tech companies here too - that extra hour closer to the Pacific Timezone would make collaboration so much easier.

An hour ahead would be GMT+1. I would think the Irish will go for GMT +1 despite not being anywhere near that timezone. That’ll be bad for US trade.

The U.K. will probably go with GMT. With our latitude I do think DST is a good concept but we just can’t have it year round.

Nqp15hhu

MJohnston wrote: »

That barely matters to the tech industry — maybe it would matter to financial services, but even there I doubt it.

Conversely, if we move permanently to UTC±0, that mean the Pacific Time workday began at 6pm our time for a good part of the year. That would be a disaster for tech companies.

It would begin at 5pm

Nqp15hhu

Tyrone212 wrote: »

Oh give over. The majority in the North voted to stay in the EU so stop taking ****. Its your favourite past time though. You haven't a clue about anything. Always peddling absolute ****e. London agreed a deal with the EU. That's what the checks are about. You won't criticise them though, they don't give a ****e about NI. It costs them a fortune and a majority in England would be glad to see the back of it.

Don’t speak to me with such disdain. I am blocking and reporting you. How dare you be so vile.

Hateful man. Bitterness seething through you.

Nqp15hhu

Dutch_Druid wrote: »

Summer has a much better PR team, but moving to permanent DST (summer time) instead of standard time doesn't mean that we'll have summer all year.

By changing to permanent DST / summer time, winters would be absolutely miserable. Sunrise wouldn't begin until after 10:00, it's hard enough getting kids out of bed in winter wiyjout it appearing to be the middle of the night.
Our circadian cycle would be completely messed up, affecting sleep and health for an entire season every year.

The summer daylight hours are so long that keeping standard time would have no major impact, but the limited sunlight hours in winter would cause a noticable impact is we use DST, and the off set of astrological time would also be much more apparent.

We do a a real world example of opting out of seasonal time changes: in 2011 Russia moved to permenant DST / summertime zones, initially the popular choice. In 2014 they then changed back to standard time as DST was attributed to increased health issues and road accidents compared to previous years, and impacting agriculture.

Reading through some of the replies I don’t think some truly understand what permanent DST would do to our winter daylight hours.

Tyrone212

Nqp15hhu wrote: »

Don’t speak to me with such disdain. I am blocking and reporting you. How dare you be so vile.

Hateful man. Bitterness seething through you.

Coming from the guy who champions Jim allister. Talking about bitterness. Hilarious.

You couldn't refute anything I said either regarding it as you can't in good faith.

Report yourself for bringing brexit in to the discussion and for a constant victim hood mentality about how hard done by the UK is. You're completely devoid of any facts and any sense of reality. You live in an alternative reality. It's embarrassing how deluded you are. Please do block. Save my eyes from reading nonsense.

NeuralNetwork

GMT makes more sense for us than moving to CET. Dark mornings would be absolutely miserable and we are just far too far West for CET.

The business day sync up with continental Europe is not all that big a deal, it an hour either way.

The biggest issue we would have is losing an hour in a narrow window of business time with the US. It makes more sense from the point of view of both where we are and what we do to be permanently on GMT.

This notion of “year round summer time” sounds good because of the association with brighter days, but it wouldn’t look like that at all in mid winter with the sun rising at 10am

Also, Brexit is a bad enough mess without also adding in a timezone issue on the island of Ireland too.

Quackster

Bill Ponderosa wrote: »

Year round summertime would be better than year round wintertime

Mornings are dark enough in December and January on the west coast and this would make it all the worse. But I'd still prefer it to year round wintertime.

As other posters have said though, there's no reason why we can't have switched to summertime by the beginning of March. The mornings would be bright enough at this stage for it to work.

Nqp15hhu

Looking at photos on my phone. In mid December and early January, it is pitch dark here at 8:30am.

So with permanent DST it would be pitch dark to 9:30am, not dawn! Just can’t see how that could work, we are just too far west. I think the EU needs to be flexible on this one. Possibly have the option for more southern countries such as Italy or Spain. But let Northern countries decide themselves.

I tend to agree that an extra hour with the US would make a substantial difference versus an added hour added on to the EU. Although one could argue that France and Spain really should be using GMT+1 and no further.

Being west of the Meridian there is no sense in France using a timezone two hours ahead.

highdef

Dutch_Druid wrote: »

Summer has a much better PR team, but moving to permanent DST (summer time) instead of standard time doesn't mean that we'll have summer all year.

You're causing confusion with your terminology. In Ireland, standard time is in the summer months. Winter time is not standard time in Ireland.

The end result is the same but it's important to use the terms correctly.

Standard Time = Summer months or GMT+01:00
Winter Time - Winter months or GMT

Bill Ponderosa

Quackster wrote: »

Mornings are dark enough in December and January on the west coast and this would make it all the worse. But I'd still prefer it to year round wintertime.

As other posters have said though, there's no reason why we can't have switched to summertime by the beginning of March. The mornings would be bright enough at this stage for it to work.

Yeah darker mornings but most people are in work or school and have lights, then when work/school is over you get an hour extra daylight so can get out in the evenings in daylight.

robinph

highdef wrote: »

You're causing confusion with your terminology. In Ireland, standard time is in the summer months. Winter time is not standard time in Ireland.

The end result is the same but it's important to use the terms correctly.

Standard Time = Summer months or GMT+01:00
Winter Time - Winter months or GMT

If anyone is causing confusion it's the person who decided to call GMT +1 standard time for the country to the west of Greenwich and then call GMT something different.

New Home

Mod:Just a reminder to keep things civil. Also, this is not the politics forum, if you want to continue the political debate over Brexit and Irish/UK history please go over there. I'll tidy up the thread later, don't be shocked if you see some posts go.

highdef

robinph wrote: »

If anyone is causing confusion it's the person who decided to call GMT +1 standard time for the country to the west of Greenwich and then call GMT something different.

GMT+01 is a time offset that adds 1 hour to Greenwich Mean Time (GMT).

It is observed in the CET (Central European Time), WAT (West Africa Time) during standard time, and in the BST (British Summer Time), IST (Irish Standard Time), WEST (Western European Summer Time) during the other months (Daylight saving time).

Time zones can be and are often confusing however it's important to keep the naming convention consistent in order to avoid ambiguity. Even the above paragraph could be considered contradictory due to the terminology used for time in Ireland but that's just the way it is.

So to be clear, Irish Standard Time is from late March to late October in Ireland. It is not standard time in other countries however it is in Ireland.

robinph

highdef wrote: »

So to be clear, Irish Standard Time is from late March to late October in Ireland. It is not standard time in other countries however it is in Ireland.

I know.

GMT or UTC is the time that all others reference, and to use that for one of your time zones and call it something different is fine. The confusion starts though when you decide to rename the offset time as "standard" despite also using the standard time of GMT by a different name.

Nqp15hhu

Nqp15hhu wrote: »

Yeah I was up yesterday morning and it was bright at 6:30! We should’ve put our clocks forward a while ago!

If it was up to me, I would spring forward when the sun starts to rise at 08:00 then the sunrise will be 09:00 this year that would have been around middle of February (depending on which town you use for the sunrise).
In the Autumn the sun rises at 09:00 in mid November, then we can add the hour back in the morning. Using this method, we can at least avoid the (worst of the) long dark mornings, while making the most of the evening light.

Dutch_Druid

highdef wrote: »

You're causing confusion with your terminology. In Ireland, standard time is in the summer months. Winter time is not standard time in Ireland.

The end result is the same but it's important to use the terms correctly.

Standard Time = Summer months or GMT+01:00
Winter Time - Winter months or GMT

You're right, sorry I didn't realise. Shouldn't be surprising that we're one of the only places that goes opposite to the convention 🙄

My points still stand about moving to GMT permanently instead of GMT+1

VinLieger

Dutch_Druid wrote: »

Summer has a much better PR team, but moving to permanent DST (summer time) instead of standard time doesn't mean that we'll have summer all year.

By changing to permanent DST / summer time, winters would be absolutely miserable. Sunrise wouldn't begin until after 10:00, it's hard enough getting kids out of bed in winter wiyjout it appearing to be the middle of the night.
Our circadian cycle would be completely messed up, affecting sleep and health for an entire season every year.

The summer daylight hours are so long that keeping standard time would have no major impact, but the limited sunlight hours in winter would cause a noticable impact is we use DST, and the off set of astrological time would also be much more apparent.

We do a a real world example of opting out of seasonal time changes: in 2011 Russia moved to permenant DST / summertime zones, initially the popular choice. In 2014 they then changed back to standard time as DST was attributed to increased health issues and road accidents compared to previous years, and impacting agriculture.

Well this is just littered with inaccuracies.

Firstly there's multiple studies proving that the time change impacts circadian rhythms far more and in fact there's even a statistical jump in heart attacks after each time change.

Also using the Russian example is absurd due to it being in no way comparable since Russia is a MASSIVE country, we are literally 0.5% of their total landmass. Also the main reason they switched back was to help those in northern Russia where the bulk of the issues were seen as they are between 10 and 20 degrees further north in Latitude than we are so would experience the effects of such a change far more than us.

We would also literally being throwing away an hour of useable daylight in the best months of the year to not gain anything in the winter months bar moving sunrise and sunset around a bit.

Dutch_Druid

VinLieger wrote: »

Firstly there's multiple studies proving that the time change impacts circadian rhythms far more and in fact there's even a statistical jump in heart attacks after each time change.

Absolutely, I'm in agreement of all these points. I never stated, nor believe, that the annual DST change should remain. My post was following the thread about was which timecycle we'd choose as permenant, and I was arguing that I believe we should choose GTM instead of GMT+1. The circadian rythem would be impacted by starting the business day up to 2 hours before sunrise in winter.

VinLieger wrote: »

Also using the Russian example is absurd due to it being in no way comparable since Russia is a MASSIVE country, we are literally 0.5% of their total landmass. Also the main reason they switched back was to help those in northern Russia where the bulk of the issues were seen as they are between 10 and 20 degrees further north in Latitude than we are so would experience the effects of such a change far more than us.

Yes, Russia is massive, which is why they have several timezones, all of which moved to permenant 'summertime' in 2011, and all of which moved to permenant 'wintertime' in 2014. Yes, the northern latitudes were worst affected but the 'summertime', but it was still the popular decision across the entire country to move to 'wintertime'.

It is also a real world example of a country trying both that we can look at, which shouldn't be dismissed without some consideration.

VinLieger wrote: »

We would also literally being throwing away an hour of useable daylight in the best months of the year to not gain anything in the winter months bar moving sunrise and sunset around a bit.

That is the topic of this thread, which would we prefer. My opinion is that whether the sun sets at either 23:00 or 22:00 in the summer seasons shouldn't impact the average citizen unduly, but not having the sun rise until 10:00 in the morning during winter seasons would have an impact on people starting the day, nevermind trying to get livestock to syncronise as well.

highdef

Dutch_Druid wrote: »

That is the topic of this thread, which would we prefer. My opinion is that whether the sun sets at either 23:00 or 22:00 in the summer seasons shouldn't impact the average citizen unduly, but not having the sun rise until 10:00 in the morning during winter seasons would have an impact on people starting the day, nevermind trying to get livestock to syncronise as well.

We would need to go to UTC+02:00 to allow for sunsets around 23:00 near the summer solstice. Did you mean to say "22:00 or 21:00"?

Whilst sunset around 21:00 is not too bad (personally I love the 22:00 sunsets), bear in mind that this is only around the summer solstice so if we stayed at UTC all the time, by the time we get to mid/late August (when we often get our balmiest evening where we can sit outdoors or do whatever outdoory things you want to do until quite late, sunset would be around 19:30/20:00 which is a bit early for a lot of outdoor activities that require/benefit from daylight.

The flip side of the loss of useful daylight in the evenings of summer months also results in sunrise before 04:00 in many parts of the country for much of June. I would consider this to very wasteful as very few people are up and about at 4/5am.

So whilst you could convince someone that the 21:00 or so sunset is not too bad, if you also mentioned that the sun will rise before 04:00 at that same time of the year, that would lessen the appetite for it for many/most. Then if you also add that the sun will go down around 19:30 by mid/late August, it will detract more people from UTC all year round.

eire4

eire4 wrote: »

But for sure this clock changing nonsense needs to stop IMHO.

Clock changing still makes sense. Albeit for a shorter time.

My preferences.

1) winter time reduced to 3 months. Mid November to mid Feb. 2 months Dec/Jan would also work.
2) summer time all year round.
3) winter time all year round.

In that order of course, but not evenly, if I were to rank my preferences out of ten it would be.

1) 10
2) 4
3) 0

I don’t get the whole anti clock change in general. They could do this in 1916 but we can’t in an era when devices do it for us?

VinLieger

Dutch_Druid wrote: »

That is the topic of this thread, which would we prefer. My opinion is that whether the sun sets at either 23:00 or 22:00 in the summer seasons shouldn't impact the average citizen unduly, but not having the sun rise until 10:00 in the morning during winter seasons would have an impact on people starting the day, nevermind trying to get livestock to syncronise as well.

Indeed it is the topic of this thread and you seem to be ignoring the fact that it also means the sun rising at 3am instead of 4am thus effectively loosing one useful hour of daylight while also then gaining no hours of useful daylight in the winter and just pointlessly moving the times for sunrise and sunset around.


I await the usual "think of the children" reply that if you check the history of this thread has well and truly been shown to be garbage.

Nqp15hhu

VinLieger wrote: »

Well this is just littered with inaccuracies.

Firstly there's multiple studies proving that the time change impacts circadian rhythms far more and in fact there's even a statistical jump in heart attacks after each time change.

Also using the Russian example is absurd due to it being in no way comparable since Russia is a MASSIVE country, we are literally 0.5% of their total landmass. Also the main reason they switched back was to help those in northern Russia where the bulk of the issues were seen as they are between 10 and 20 degrees further north in Latitude than we are so would experience the effects of such a change far more than us.

We would also literally being throwing away an hour of useable daylight in the best months of the year to not gain anything in the winter months bar moving sunrise and sunset around a bit.

With only 7 hours of daylight, an hour is quite a big difference. 10am sunrise? No thanks.

VinLieger

Deleted User wrote: »

Clock changing still makes sense. Albeit for a shorter time.

My preferences.

1) winter time reduced to 3 months. Mid November to mid Feb. 2 months Dec/Jan would also work.
2) summer time all year round.
3) winter time all year round.

In that order of course, but not evenly, if I were to rank my preferences out of ten it would be.

1) 10
2) 4
3) 0

I don’t get the whole anti clock change in general. They could do this in 1916 but we can’t in an era when devices do it for us?

So you suggest we alone change to a clock adjustment pattern that is unique to every other country in the world? So we should add a blocker for all other countries doing business in Ireland?



Also its not about the act of changing the clocks its about the pointlessness of it and the potential economic impacts it can have, like your idea of singling ourselves out vs the rest of the world, along with the well documented health issues surrounding it.

Nqp15hhu

Deleted User wrote: »

Clock changing still makes sense. Albeit for a shorter time.

My preferences.

1) winter time reduced to 3 months. Mid November to mid Feb. 2 months Dec/Jan would also work.
2) summer time all year round.
3) winter time all year round.

In that order of course, but not evenly, if I were to rank my preferences out of ten it would be.

1) 10
2) 4
3) 0

I don’t get the whole anti clock change in general. They could do this in 1916 but we can’t in an era when devices do it for us?

Although we all hate it, DST actually makes sense for our latitude. Can’t have it permanently in winter though.

Sunrise here early November is 7:40am, so we could definitely keep DST in place to then.

VinLieger

Nqp15hhu wrote: »

With only 7 hours of daylight, an hour is quite a big difference. 10am sunrise? No thanks.

Imo a 3am sunrise is far more absurd, 10am sunrise has zero impact on usable daylight hours which a 3am sunrise does.

eire4

Tyrone212 wrote: »

Coming from the guy who champions Jim allister. Talking about bitterness. Hilarious.

You couldn't refute anything I said either regarding it as you can't in good faith.

Report yourself for bringing brexit in to the discussion and for a constant victim hood mentality about how hard done by the UK is. You're completely devoid of any facts and any sense of reality. You live in an alternative reality. It's embarrassing how deluded you are. Please do block. Save my eyes from reading nonsense.

I did get a laugh at calling you hateful. Projection anyone.

False Prophet

Just move 30 mins ahead instead of hour for summer and never change back again. Simples

dxhound2005

False Prophet wrote: »

Just move 30 mins ahead instead of hour for summer and never change back again. Simples

That option, and every other possible one is open to Ireland and all the EU countries. Nobody has to align to anyone else, but they all have to agree to settle on a permanent time zone.