E.U. proposal to apply duty to e-cigs, Yes that's TAX

tommy2bad

Meant to post this here ages ago but completely forgot. The E.U. is currently considering a tax regime for e-cigarettes and other novel tobacco products as they revise the current tobacco tax system. As is the procedure on these things they are running a consultation with the general public. This is your chance to tell 'em what you think. Well if I had posted this when I intended you would have had some time to consider your answers but as I said, I messed up by leaving it this late. The closing date is tonight, you only have today. Sorry...
Anyway, it's a short questionnaire, most of it is fairly straightforward agree disagree options so it can be done in 15 minutes. Heres the link;
https://ec.europa.eu/info/consultations/public-consultation-excise-duties-applied-manufactured-tobacco-and-possible-taxation-novel-products_en

This is your chance to contribute to policymaking.

Venom

It sucks but I'm honestly surprised it took them this long to bring this up.

grindle

It should be taking them longer to bring it up considering they don't have any bona fide negative data from a single study which was properly carried out, then repeated and verified to hand.

A couple of the statements/arguments have quite a malevolent profit-over-people tone, I'm surprised they made it onto the questionnaire.

tommy2bad

Yep, it clearly worries about lost revenue from smoking and the need to replace that. Bit like the proposals to tax all cars by mileage to make up for the lost revenue from petrol sales to electric cars. Once gov get a taste of your money they never let go.

Venom

tommy2bad wrote: »

Yep, it clearly worries about lost revenue from smoking and the need to replace that. Bit like the proposals to tax all cars by mileage to make up for the lost revenue from petrol sales to electric cars. Once gov get a taste of your money they never let go.

When you consider that the revenue lost to the tax coffers from a 20 a day smoker switching to vaping is around €2000 a year, the public's health is probably not the top consideration.

grindle

Venom wrote: »

When you consider that the revenue lost to the tax coffers from a 20 a day smoker switching to vaping is around €2000 a year, the public's health is probably not the top consideration.

Exactly. It's gross that this is our default view, we shouldn't have to think so lowly of our politicians but when they have statements that amount to "Ecigs might be better but they act as competition to a known killer - should we even the playing field a bit?"
It's genuinely repulsive that they'd even hint at it like that.
Pure scum.

Dr Bill V1.5

I've said it before in another thread that once the political establishment start taking an interest in anything, it's 9 times out of 10 financially motivated and this will be no different.
No denying the fact that vaping will probably become more expensive in the not too distant future and unfortunately the tax revenue from it will as usual end up in the general tax pot instead of at least some of it being used for research into the benefits, drawbacks and overall effect on vapers. Of course a small portion could also be used to educate the general public on what vaping actually is and how it can be of benefit to anyone trying to stop smoking.
Will this happen???? I won't hold my breath

tommy2bad

Of course a small portion could also be used to educate the general public on what vaping actually is and how it can be of benefit to anyone trying to stop smoking.

Far more likely they would use this money to misinform the public. The various antismoking lobbyists will get the money and spend it lobbying for vaping bans, the gov will be delighted as this will slow the decline in smoking keeping their main revenue stream going and the anti-smoking will be equally delighted as they can demand more money to fight the scourge of smoking which will 'need more stringent efforts' to reduce its health toll.
Call me a cynic if you like, but look at India which is banning vaping completely while holding a 33% share in the main tobacco company.

Captcha

tommy2bad wrote: »

Far more likely they would use this money to misinform the public. The various antismoking lobbyists will get the money and spend it lobbying for vaping bans, the gov will be delighted as this will slow the decline in smoking keeping their main revenue stream going and the anti-smoking will be equally delighted as they can demand more money to fight the scourge of smoking which will 'need more stringent efforts' to reduce its health toll.
Call me a cynic if you like, but look at India which is banning vaping completely while holding a 33% share in the main tobacco company.

I accidentally stopped smoking when I wanted freedom in Florida Theme Parks and bought a Juul ecig. This device capsules @ 5% (Equal to a box of cigs) is already banned in EU by draconian TPD laws. In USA you can get 5% legally and this will make heavy smokers quit and move to Juul. It launched in UK a few weeks ago and EU laws limit it to 1.7% which is just low enough to to make it difficult to stop smoking.

Double standards.

I notice Irish Government has millions invested in tobacco industry shares.

Whirl_wolle

It's disappointing to read that a duty tax is being considered for e cigarettes and probably juices too.

I have my e cigarette a year and it's been some rollercoaster with an on and off relationship with the e cigarette and the smokes. I wanted to give up last year for a few different reasons - the cost of cigarettes mainly, spending over 80 a week on cigarettes being a 20 a day smoker. That's over 300 euro a month. I thought that money could go in other ways. I'm now spending about 50-120 euro a month on vape supplies. Other reasons too was because as much I enjoyed a cigarette, I was also beginning to hate them too. It's only recently, it finally clicked with me - I never, ever want to touch another cigarette again. Honestly, I wouldn't be able to give up if it wasn't for my e-cig. There's too much muck in my life and I enjoy vaping.


Like all taxes, if this is successful, it will only rise. A 10ml bottle of juice costs 4.99 as it is and that would last me 3/4/5 days. If duty tax is added it will be more expensive and it will only rise and goodness knows how much a 10ml bottle would be in a few years.

Whirl_wolle

Smoking and Vaping are very different.

With smoking, you have a cylinder of tobacco and you light it and smoke it.

With vaping you have a battery and a tank. In that tank you have a coil and juice. The battery works with the tank and the coil to heat the juice and when you pull on the mouth piece of the tank, what you produce is vapour.

How would a tax like this work to being applied to juices? How about diy juices? Where you can buy PG, VG, flavours and nicotine separately and make your own juices. Would the duty be applied to all the separate ingredients or would it be applied to the nicotine only?

Venom

Whirl_wolle wrote: »

It's disappointing to read that a duty tax is being considered for e cigarettes and probably juices too.

I have my e cigarette a year and it's been some rollercoaster with an on and off relationship with the e cigarette and the smokes. I wanted to give up last year for a few different reasons - the cost of cigarettes mainly, spending over 80 a week on cigarettes being a 20 a day smoker. That's over 300 euro a month. I thought that money could go in other ways. I'm now spending about 50-120 euro a month on vape supplies. Other reasons too was because as much I enjoyed a cigarette, I was also beginning to hate them too. It's only recently, it finally clicked with me - I never, ever want to touch another cigarette again. Honestly, I wouldn't be able to give up if it wasn't for my e-cig. There's too much muck in my life and I enjoy vaping.


Like all taxes, if this is successful, it will only rise. A 10ml bottle of juice costs 4.99 as it is and that would last me 3/4/5 days. If duty tax is added it will be more expensive and it will only rise and goodness knows how much a 10ml bottle would be in a few years.

You seen to be spending a crazy amount per month on vaping. Are you only buying 10ml bottles of juice?

Whirl_wolle

Venom wrote: »

You seen to be spending a crazy amount per month on vaping. Are you only buying 10ml bottles of juice?

When I first started vaping, there was some trial and error with juices before I settled on a juice. The juice I liked was 70vg, sweet and 18mg nicotine. I was a pack of 20 a day smoking so I needed the 18mg. The shop I used to buy from eventually stopped suppling the juice I loved. I tried other juices but I found high pg juices sickening. Other shops and online Irish shops didn't stock juices to my preference being:
High VG
Sweet - like salted caramel, lattes
18mg nicotine.

I had to go further afield to UK online shops for juices.

I currently have two favorites juices
Manabush - spiritwalker
Vapouround - tofficanio - it's toffee and cappuccino.

Each of them comes in at 4.99 pounds. I buy in packs of 3. So that would be 14.99 pounds. I would stick in an order with 3 packs. Sometimes I would browse around and feel adventurous and I might order a single bottle of a new flavour if it meets my needs. Then I would add 2 packs of coils and that's a months supply for me. My preference in juices fecks up my coils and I get 4/5 days out from a coil. It all adds up and that's all in pounds before it's converted to euros.

My father is vaping now too. He used to buy juice from the local petrol station but he found it useless but it was local. I read about juices called - DrSalt and I bought him a box to try and he liked it so now I buy my fathers vape supplies too.

Sometimes I may not be organized and I run very low on juices and when that happens I choose express delivery for 20 pounds. Otherwise delivery is usually 5 pounds. If I order on a Monday, it tends to get to me by a Friday.

youdipstick

what you really need is a rebuildable tank for you & your Father,no more buying coils & also dip your toe into mixing your own juice...

Dr Bill V1.5

youdipstick wrote:

what you really need is a rebuildable tank for you & your Father,no more buying coils & also dip your toe into mixing your own juice...

Absolutely..... you'll cut your monthly spend by at least half what you're currently spending.

Venom

Whirl Wolle what level of nicotine are you using now? As others have stated, a rebuildable tank and making your own coils will save you a ton of money tho you will go through way more juice.



Saying that, the quality of juice on sale in Irish brick and mortar stores has improved a thousandfold since the TPD was brought in due to 100ml shortfill bottles, which should really save you a boatload of cash. Check out some of the bigger shops and see if you can find a juice you like.

TinCool

Whirl_wolle wrote: »

How would a tax like this work to being applied to juices? How about diy juices?

Most likely they'll tax nicotine. Like you said, you can't tax VG, PG, flavourings as these are used outside of vaping in food, medical industries etc.

TinCool

Venom wrote: »

Whirl Wolle what level of nicotine are you using now? As others have stated, a rebuildable tank and making your own coils will save you a ton of money tho you will go through way more juice.

Been rebuilding for years. My normal monthly spend on juice is around £35, which does me the month. That's if I don't buy any mods etc. which I haven't done for a while as I'm pretty happy with my current set up. My main MTL set up I've been using for a couple of years now. So aside from the occasional bag of cotton, running costs are really only juice for me these days.

Blazer

isn't Irish an official language?
And aren't the EU paying Irish interpreters €70k or so a year to translate documents etc. So why isn't it available in Irish?
Not that I could fill out the survey on it but still

Venom

TinCool wrote: »

Most likely they'll tax nicotine. Like you said, you can't tax VG, PG, flavourings as these are used outside of vaping in food, medical industries etc.

A nicotine tax wouldn't be too much of a pain for long time vapers due to the nature of how shortfill bottles work, with the tax hit only really being on the nic-shot itself, which even if at 50% tax it would only add a euro or two to the overall price.


But for people new to vaping, the tax could almost double the cost of a 10mil high nic level bottle of juice which most new vapers start with and might put some folks off trying vaping out.

tommy2bad

Venom wrote: »

A nicotine tax wouldn't be too much of a pain for long time vapers due to the nature of how short fill bottles work, with the tax hit only really being on the nic-shot itself, which even if at 50% tax it would only add a euro or two to the overall price.


But for people new to vaping, the tax could almost double the cost of a 10mil high nic level bottle of juice which most new vapers start with and might put some folks off trying vaping out.

As I understand it the wording will be something like 'product intended to be used as tobacco substitutes' So zero nic juice and nic will both be taxed. PG or VG intended for other purposes, i.e. food ingredients or home remedies won't. This is intended to cover the bottles of vape juice sold in shops and online manufactured for the purpose of vaping. It's purely about reclaiming the lost tax on people not smoking. There is no health argument or public safety argument, purely revenue raising.
What they don't seem to realize is that PG and VG are both available in Boots for a fiver for 100 ml and flavors will just be rebranded as food ingredients. They will only succeed in protecting the revenue by reducing the number of people switching. That in itself should raise flags with the health lobby in the EU but as they see vaping as a threat I doubt any of them will do other than cheer this on. It was never about health.

Whirl_wolle

tommy2bad wrote: »

As I understand it the wording will be something like 'product intended to be used as tobacco substitutes' So zero nic juice and nic will both be taxed. PG or VG intended for other purposes, i.e. food ingredients or home remedies won't. This is intended to cover the bottles of vape juice sold in shops and online manufactured for the purpose of vaping. It's purely about reclaiming the lost tax on people not smoking. There is no health argument or public safety argument, purely revenue raising.
What they don't seem to realize is that PG and VG are both available in Boots for a fiver for 100 ml and flavors will just be rebranded as food ingredients. They will only succeed in protecting the revenue by reducing the number of people switching. That in itself should raise flags with the health lobby in the EU but as they see vaping as a threat I doubt any of them will do other than cheer this on. It was never about health.

For the life of me, I couldn't figure out how a tax applied to the nicotine only would work but thanks for clearing it up with:

"Product intended to be used as tobacco substitutes".

For now it's just a proposal so hopefully it won't happen but I fear it will. It's absolutely scandalous. Once the EU get their way our government will piggy back of this and apply an increase in taxes budget after budget, no doubt.

I fear it won't be just juices that they will go after but vaping equipment too like mods, tanks, coils. All them come with nicotine warnings - warning this product contains nicotine which is a highly addictive substance. Them warnings on the boxes of vaping equipment is ridiculous because none of it contains nicotine. It's only when you fill a tank with juice, only then it may contain nicotine because there's some juices with 0%.

All this will do is increase the costs all around for those who vape making it more expensive especially for those new to vaping or starting out. Experienced vapers will have a stash of supplies build up and make their own juices.

One of the reasons why I wanted to give up cigarettes was because of the cost of them. It was crazy. I started to give up when they were 11.50 a box, knowing there was a budget von the way and thinking they will go up in price again. If in a few years time there's little difference in the costs between cigarettes and vaping, people may not make that switch.

I read a piece last week. There was a study done in Italy. A group of people diagnosed with COPD. COPD is a lung disease and is considered mainly a smokers disease. The group was diveded in two. I think 22 people in each group. One group continued to smoke. The other group switched to vaping. At the end of three years, the group who vaped showed a huge improvement with their COPD symptoms. Their symptoms were nearly nil. The group who continued to smoke, continued to suffer with their COPD symptoms.

There's definitely something positive there in that study and it should be encouraged for smokers to switch to vaping.

Whirl_wolle

Venom wrote: »

Whirl Wolle what level of nicotine are you using now? As others have stated, a rebuildable tank and making your own coils will save you a ton of money tho you will go through way more juice.



Saying that, the quality of juice on sale in Irish brick and mortar stores has improved a thousandfold since the TPD was brought in due to 100ml shortfill bottles, which should really save you a boatload of cash. Check out some of the bigger shops and see if you can find a juice you like.

I have a juice I love. I was 18mg juice. I bought a new tank last week which is giving me an enjoyable vape. It's so smooth and I'm more satisfied. Unfortunately, after vaping with the new tank I experienced some dizzy spells so I put in a new order of juices with a lower nicotine strength.

Whirl_wolle

I thought about this a little more.

"Products intended for tobacco substitutes"

Tobacco substitutes......

This is nonsense of the highest order.

Do they not realize what tobacco is? It's the brown stuff in cigarettes or tobacco pouches.

I did not take up vaping with the intention of substituting tobacco. I took up vaping to stop smoking cigarettes. It is to get a nicotine fix. My intention is to work my way down nicotine strengths until I'm on zero nicotine.

This is the way my mother gave up smoking many years ago. A nicotine replacement company had these little inhalers with nicotine cartridges and she worked her way down. She's off them now a long time.

Notice how the proposal doesn't contain "nicotine substitutes". If they had that, there would be uproar from doctors and the health organisations because it would also target the nicotine replacements that you find in chemists like patches, gum, mints.

Captcha

http://www.wildcat.arizona.edu/article/2018/09/o-juul-ban-5ba294dbea3fd

Government want to regulate / ban Juul because its so successful!

JUUL is simply a company that made too much money too fast; it has challenged the tobacco industry and forgotten to invest in the capital of political favors. Yes, vaping is unhealthy, but it is not the worst thing teens are doing to themselves. Vaping does not come with the possibility of instant death due to over-consumption. Teens have died from drinking too much, but the FDA does not go after alcohol companies for putting out drinks with flavors that appeal to a younger demographic, such as Mike’s HARDER. Why not? Is it because prohibition didn’t work out and it would look kind of embarrassing to go for round two? Or are the alcohol companies simply shelling out more than JUUL? The government does not ban products to protect you. It bans in favor of its own interests.

Looking like Juul vape pods have not much effect on living cells:

https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/juul-labs-presents-findings-from-cytotoxicity-study-at-the-tobacco-science-research-conference-300713777.html

"We are encouraged by the results of this study, in which tested aerosols generated from JUUL were not cytotoxic to living cells," said Dr. Manoj Misra, study author and head of Toxicology at JUUL Labs. "These findings add to the growing body of evidence regarding use of JUUL as an alternative to combustible cigarettes, and we are committed to future rigorous, independent and peer-reviewed clinical trials and behavioral studies."

Whirl_wolle

Captcha wrote: »

http://www.wildcat.arizona.edu/article/2018/09/o-juul-ban-5ba294dbea3fd

Government want to regulate / ban Juul because its so successful!



Looking like Juul vape pods have not much effect on living cells:

https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/juul-labs-presents-findings-from-cytotoxicity-study-at-the-tobacco-science-research-conference-300713777.html

That came up on my Facebook earlier. Something in the Juul report stood out for me. It said something on the lines of: 'often ecigs is a starting point towards cigarettes for teenagers'

Something on them lines.


What an absolute complete load of nonsense. Many of us here are vaping to give up the cigarettes. Giving up the cigarettes for many different reasons. If I was young again, in my teens and developed a love for an e cigarettes and juice and vaping, and attempted a cigarette at some stage after vaping, I'd be fairly disgusted and disappointed with the taste of a cigarette.

grindle

The phrasing of most of these excited JUUL posts reminds me of cigalike vendors popping in here to shill when we'd already moved onto eGos and Lavatubes. Is it actually good? If the company themselves are making out that non-JUUL ecigs are some kind of gateway to a pack of Marlboro then they're as much a cancer to the community as...well, cancer.