Is this Dublin team the greatest in Gaelic football history

The_Honeybadger

dog_pig wrote: »

I never said that they didn't compete, I said that making out that Mayo and Kerry have competed at the same level with Dublin is misleading.

You can misrepresent me and move the goalposts all you want but what I'm saying is borne out by the facts.

Im not moving goalposts and your opinion is not a ‘fact’. I do think they got very close in 2016 and but for a blatant and undeniable refereeing mistake would have had a draw and replay, same as Mayo in the subsequent final. We can dispute a difference of a point or two in defeats if you want to take it that far.

C__MC

It was an argument I Always bring up here that Kerry are the only team that can possibly topple Dublin. I was convinced this year if they met, they had a chance. On paper, Kerry have the forwards to do damage to Dublin.

But but here is the thing, there backs look so average right now (Kerry) Dublin would probably have to much. Moran wouldn’t be fit for the Dublin midfield and they haven’t a decent keeper. Kerry have a lot of work to do to beat Dublin in the space of 12 months. It has been a turbulent 12 months for the kingdom alone. There team probably needs rebuilding from 1-8.

They did well to beat Dublin in that league final but Dublin were short a good bit in personal the same day.

Yes Dublin are the greatest team ever. They have wiped the floor in Leinster - and consistently been the front runners in league foootball for some time. They have won all Ireland’s the hard way and with ease. They have won replays as well. Kerry were a great team in 70s and 80s but it was a 3 game championship for them and they didn’t dominate the league.

robbiezero

C__MC wrote: »

It was an argument I Always bring up here that Kerry are the only team that can possibly topple Dublin. I was convinced this year if they met, they had a chance. On paper, Kerry have the forwards to do damage to Dublin.

But but here is the thing, there backs look so average right now (Kerry) Dublin would probably have to much. Moran wouldn’t be fit for the Dublin midfield and they haven’t a decent keeper. Kerry have a lot of work to do to beat Dublin in the space of 12 months. It has been a turbulent 12 months for the kingdom alone. There team probably needs rebuilding from 1-8.

They did well to beat Dublin in that league final but Dublin were short a good bit in personal the same day.

Yes Dublin are the greatest team ever. They have wiped the floor in Leinster - and consistently been the front runners in league foootball for some time. They have won all Ireland’s the hard way and with ease. They have won replays as well. Kerry were a great team in 70s and 80s but it was a 3 game championship for them and they didn’t dominate the league.

I'm not sure how serious teams took the league back then so I don't know if its valid to knock Kerry on that score. Also a 3 game championship isn't fair either, in reality Dublin have never really had to play any more than 3 competitive games for any of their 4 in a row years and it is arguable if they had to play any competitive games at all this year.
If Dublin do the 5 in a row which they almost certainly will, then for me they will be GOAT, until then it seems a pointless debate that will not reach any general agreement.

Daz_

rm75 wrote: »

Sounds like loser talk to me. Always easier to blame others for your own failings of course.

Kerry were a great team. Offally improved inch by inch over 3 years and eventually beat them. They could have lay down and cried about how "its not fair" but they didnt. Still each to their own i guess.

I’m not from any major footballing county so haven’t lost anything . You refer back to the 90,s i take it ? What is your point exactly ? Apart from saying it’s all whining you don’t seem to have any response to all the reasons why Dublin are at a different level .

rm75

Daz_ wrote: »

I’m not from any major footballing county so haven’t lost anything . You refer back to the 90,s i take it ? What is your point exactly ? Apart from saying it’s all whining you don’t seem to have any response to all the reasons why Dublin are at a different level .

No i was referring to Kerrys 4 in a row team. Offaly got pipped by Dublin then beaten well by Kerry but they improved incrementally never gave up and beat the then greatest team ever.
If they had listened to some of the people on here they would have given up.

Dublin aren't at a different level, they beat Mayo by a point last year. Mayo took them to a replay in the semi the year before.

Whinging about resources is loser talk . You wont hear it from Kerry and in fairness to Mayo they kept coming back and running the Dubs close.
Other counties need to follow their example, Galway have more talent then Mayo but threw in the towel against the Dubs.

Daz_

rm75 wrote: »

No i was referring to Kerrys 4 in a row team. Offaly got pipped by Dublin then beaten well by Kerry but they improved incrementally never gave up and beat the then greatest team ever.
If they had listened to some of the people on here they would have given up.

Dublin aren't at a different level, they beat Mayo by a point last year. Mayo took them to a replay in the semi the year before.

Whinging about resources is loser talk . You wont hear it from Kerry and in fairness to Mayo they kept coming back and running the Dubs close.
Other counties need to follow their example, Galway have more talent then Mayo but threw in the towel against the Dubs.

Yeah I know you don’t like the resources issue - using your fav expression and calling it loser talk isn’t going to make it go away. It’s real .

lol Dublin aren’t at a different level .

rm75

Daz_ wrote: »

Yeah I know you don’t like the resources issue - using your fav expression and calling it loser talk isn’t going to make it go away. It’s real .

lol Dublin aren’t at a different level .

Not in the eyes of Mayo and Kerry.
I accept your point that many other counties have given up and are looking for easy excuses for their own failings.

munster87

rm75 wrote: »

Not in the eyes of Mayo and Kerry.
I accept your point that many other counties have given up and are looking for easy excuses for their own failings.

I’m from Kerry, Dublin are definitely performing at a different level to us at the moment. Hopefully not for too much longer though.

legendary.xix

Billy86 wrote: »

So your issue has nothing to do with population then, and everything to do with how many councils there are?

So what you are saying is you would also split Galway and Cork up, as each of those have two separate councils. How would you go about this?

And how do you plan on selling to fans from Ulster, the dissolution of their teams to be replaced by:
1. Antrim and Newtownabbey
2. Ards and North Down
3. Armagh City, Banbridge and Craigavon
4. Belfast
5. Coleraine
6. Derry and Strabane
7. Fermanagh and Omagh
8. Lisburn and Castlereagh
9. Mid and East Antrim
10. Mid Ulster

That's quite a lofty goal you've set for yourself there, but I would be interested in some of the finer details as to how exactly you would go about them.

Fair comment. Different classification system in use. Dublin is a province in all but official confirmation of that.

legendary.xix

Kerry and Wexford achieved 4 in-a-row by competing in the All-Ireland series away from home. Home advantage as Russia had in the World Cup helps the hosts to go a long way.

Bonniedog

Dublin has a pick of 500 senior footballers. I would estimate that at least 100 of them are out of the frame as they are either not from Dublin or are too old.

It is still a good range of players but not much different from Cork or Kerry I would imagine.

The number of players available for senior inter county is the only demographic that matters. Not how many eastern Europeans are driving cranes.

odyssey06

legendary.xix wrote: »

Kerry and Wexford achieved 4 in-a-row by competing in the All-Ireland series away from home. Home advantage as Russia had in the World Cup helps the hosts to go a long way.

They weren't away from home. They were playing in a neutral venue and ticket allocations reflected that.

Since 1978, one host team (France 1998) has won the World Cup and they were in fact the only hosts to reach the final in 10 tournaments. Argentina's win in 1978 probably owes as much to skullduggery off the field, as any advantage on the field.

There is an advantage in World Cups for teams such as South Korea, Russia, Mexico who by virtue of their hosts status received top seed in group stage draws. This does not apply to teams already at the top seed level.

In Munster football finals, whether it is Cork or Kerry hosting is having no discernible effect on results.

Crash Bang Wall

Where do you pull that figure of 500 from?

Monaghan have approx 30 clubs that the county team can pick from so 30*15 = 450
Cavan have approx 40 clubs that the county team can pick from so 40*15 = 600

Are you saying Dublin have less players than these 2 smaller counties?

Crash Bang Wall

Bonniedog wrote: »

Dublin has a pick of 500 senior footballers. I would estimate that at least 100 of them are out of the frame as they are either not from Dublin or are too old.

It is still a good range of players but not much different from Cork or Kerry I would imagine.

The number of players available for senior inter county is the only demographic that matters. Not how many eastern Europeans are driving cranes.

Where do you pull that figure of 500 from?

Monaghan have approx 30 clubs that the county team can pick from so 30*15 = 450
Cavan have approx 40 clubs that the county team can pick from so 40*15 = 600

Are you saying Dublin have less players than these 2 smaller counties?

The high horse brigade

odyssey06 wrote: »

They weren't away from home. They were playing in a neutral venue and ticket allocations reflected that.

Since 1978, one host team (France 1998) has won the World Cup and they were in fact the only hosts to reach the final in 10 tournaments. Argentina's win in 1978 probably owes as much to skullduggery off the field, as any advantage on the field.

There is an advantage in World Cups for teams such as South Korea, Russia, Mexico who by virtue of their hosts status received top seed in group stage draws. This does not apply to teams already at the top seed level.

In Munster football finals, whether it is Cork or Kerry hosting is having no discernible effect on results.

Home advantage exists. In rugby they say home advantage is worth 12-15 points and have undertaken studies to show this which is why they alternate home and away in the 6 Nations fixtures.

rm75

legendary.xix wrote: »

Fair comment. Different classification system in use. Dublin is a province in all but official confirmation of that.

Leinster is a province with 12 counties. These 12 counties are : Carlow, Dublin, Kildare, Kilkenny, Laois, Longford, Louth, Meath, Offaly, Westmeath, Wexford and Wicklow

There are 3 other provinces called Ulster, Munster and Connacht. There is no province called "Dublin".

Billy86

legendary.xix wrote: »

Fair comment. Different classification system in use. Dublin is a province in all but official confirmation of that.

That doesn't answer how you would break all of them up (both in the north and Republic) and how you would sell it though.

odyssey06

The high horse brigade wrote: »

Home advantage exists. In rugby they say home advantage is worth 12-15 points and have undertaken studies to show this which is why they alternate home and away in the 6 Nations fixtures.

You're not comparing like with like though.

6 Nations fixtures take place in different countries, with ticket allocations to home fans reflecting this. There are also other financial reasons why home games alternate, and TV rights distribution.
Plus, Ireland to Paris or Rome is a 2-3 hour flight.

It's not at all like an All Ireland knockout stage game in Croke Park, and the ticket allocations are that of a neutral game.
Tyrone played Dublin 2 weeks after winning their semi-final - in Croke Park.

This is an entirely different situation to Ireland, once every two years, travelling to Paris to play in a stadium with 90% home fans.

Look at recent Munster Finals, they are alternating venue between Cork and Kerry, no discernible effect on the results.

odyssey06

legendary.xix wrote: »

Fair comment. Different classification system in use. Dublin is a province in all but official confirmation of that.

No it really isn't. You keep stating that as if it is some kind of FACT with absolutely zero justification.

Cork has as many people as Connacht, and multiple councils, but you ignore this.

Bonniedog

Crash Bang Wall wrote: »

Where do you pull that figure of 500 from?

Monaghan have approx 30 clubs that the county team can pick from so 30*15 = 450
Cavan have approx 40 clubs that the county team can pick from so 40*15 = 600

Are you saying Dublin have less players than these 2 smaller counties?

No. I'm saying that basic pick is from the 16 senior A clubs. Occasionally players from outside that - Callaghan and Scully for example from Senior B - will be selected.

So let us be generous and say that between Senior A and B there is a pick of around 800 excluding non Dubs and those who are too old.

It is bigger pick than most counties but is a more valid comparison than comparing the entire population of Dublin to the entire population of any other county.

I assume Monaghan don't have 30 senior clubs so those playing club at high enough standard to be able to compete at top level inter county would be presumably less than your figure?

Just checked and there are ten teams in Monaghan SFC. So if pick was confined to those - I know it's not - then it would be 3-400.

Tombo2001

Pointless discussion.

They both have four in a row, so they rank alongside each other. Full Stop.

Very impressed with Darragh O'Se articles last week and this week.

Glad he calls it like it is - The Dubs are a mile ahead of every other county.

Tombo2001

Bonniedog wrote: »

No. I'm saying that basic pick is from the 16 senior A clubs. Occasionally players from outside that - Callaghan and Scully for example from Senior B - will be selected.

So let us be generous and say that between Senior A and B there is a pick of around 800 excluding non Dubs and those who are too old.

It is bigger pick than most counties but is a more valid comparison than comparing the entire population of Dublin to the entire population of any other county.

I assume Monaghan don't have 30 senior clubs so those playing club at high enough standard to be able to compete at top level inter county would be presumably less than your figure?

Not sure about your point.....

You are saying they are picking from the A teams of 30 senior clubs? True.

But some of those clubs have up to 2000 members and 6 or 7 male adult teams.....Cuala, Na Fianna, Vincents

Its not like your club in Monaghan that has 150 members of whom 40 are men playing senior football.

The high horse brigade

odyssey06 wrote: »

You're not comparing like with like though.

You were the one comparing to world cup wins by the host nation.

We are not taking about Munster. We are talking about the issue that Croke park is not a neutral venue when Dublin are playing.

robbiezero

Tombo2001 wrote: »

Not sure about your point.....

You are saying they are picking from the A teams of 30 senior clubs? True.

But some of those clubs have up to 2000 members and 6 or 7 male adult teams.....Cuala, Na Fianna, Vincents

Its not like your club in Monaghan that has 150 members of whom 40 are men playing senior football.

Number of adult footballers is a fairer measure than the number of senior teams if comparing playing population sizes.

Danjamin1

The high horse brigade wrote: »

You were the one comparing to world cup wins by the host nation.

We are not taking about Munster. We are talking about the issue that Croke park is not a neutral venue when Dublin are playing.

You’re right, they should just move it to one of the GAA’s other 80,000 capacity stadiums around the country when Dublin are playing

The high horse brigade

Danjamin1 wrote: »

You’re right, they should just move it to one of the GAA’s other 80,000 capacity stadiums around the country when Dublin are playing

Or since they don't have a home ground capable of housing all their season ticket holders, make Dublin play away for all matches until SF stage of the championship

odyssey06

The high horse brigade wrote: »

You were the one comparing to world cup wins by the host nation.

We are not taking about Munster. We are talking about the issue that Croke park is not a neutral venue when Dublin are playing.

I'm not sure where you are coming from here... Another poster raised the World Cup host effect, which I was rebutting:
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=107998352&postcount=261

You are bringing in Six Nations matches as an example of home advantage, but reject points of comparison with actual GAA matches played in Munster in the last 5 years? There's no doubt in my mind which is more relevant.

Tombo2001

The high horse brigade wrote: »

You were the one comparing to world cup wins by the host nation.

We are not taking about Munster. We are talking about the issue that Croke park is not a neutral venue when Dublin are playing.

I think that one is overdone.

Ireland is a small country. To give an illustration - Limerick is in a different province on a different side of the country - but the Limerick hurlers were still able to take the train up the morning of the match for the all Ireland final.

Yes, Croke Park is essentially a home ground for Dublin footballers. But lots of counties are used to playing there, and that really erodes any so called home advantage, because on the day itself the ticket allocation is the same I am assuming.

I think the far bigger advantage is that the Dubs are used to playing big matches in Croke Park.

To make the alternative comparison - the Dublin hurlers would be far less used to playing big matches in Croke Park than Galway or Kilkenny.

Tyrone is a two hour drive away, and the Tyrone footballers, I'd imagine most of them have played Croke Park a number of times previously.

The high horse brigade

Tombo2001 wrote: »

I think that one is overdone.

Ireland is a small country. To give an illustration - Limerick is in a different province on a different side of the country - but the Limerick hurlers were still able to take the train up the morning of the match for the all Ireland final.

Yes, Croke Park is essentially a home ground for Dublin footballers. But lots of counties are used to playing there, and that really erodes any so called home advantage, because on the day itself the ticket allocation is the same I am assuming.

I think the far bigger advantage is that the Dubs are used to playing big matches in Croke Park.

To make the alternative comparison - the Dublin hurlers would be far less used to playing big matches in Croke Park than Galway or Kilkenny.

Tyrone is a two hour drive away, and the Tyrone footballers, I'd imagine most of them have played Croke Park a number of times previously.

That is a fair point. To most counties playing in Croke park is a big day, to Dublin it had become normal because that play all their games there

avud

For me the Kerry team of the 70’s and 80’s were on another level, this Dublin team is a great team no question but in my opinion Mick o Dwyers teams were awesome.

odyssey06

Tombo2001 wrote: »

I think the far bigger advantage is that the Dubs are used to playing big matches in Croke Park.
To make the alternative comparison - the Dublin hurlers would be far less used to playing big matches in Croke Park than Galway or Kilkenny.

I'd agree with 90% of what you've written but I'd even go a little further and say, the Dubs are used to playing big matches full stop. The Dublin hurlers are less used to playing big matches.

It's not Croke Park that's important, it's that it's in front of crowds of 50,000 - 80,000.
Given that Tyrone beat Monaghan in front of 50,000 at Croke Park just two weeks before the final, I don't see how they would be fazed by a final there (anymore than they would be playing a final anywhere).

Tombo2001

The high horse brigade wrote: »

That is a fair point. To most counties playing in Croke park is a big day, to Dublin it had become normal because that play all their games there

I kind of mean the other way around.

Because of the League and the qualifiers, its not that unusual for the better counties to find themselves in Croke Park. Monaghan have probably played there twice a year on average in recent times for example.

However, playing in front of 20000 people in February is very different to playing an all ireland final.

By contrast, the Dubs have now done 6 of the last 8 finals.

If you go back to 2011, the Dubs were in their first final since 1995. None of them had ever played one. By contrast, Aidan o'Mahony, Tomas O'Se, Colm Cooper - they were playing the 7th or 8th final......The Kerry lads probably had the advantage that day, they were more used to playing Croke Park on AI Final Day.

I might be stretching it a bit, but the general point I am making is that I dont think Croke Park is the advantage people say it is.

dunnerc

munster87 wrote: »

I’m from Kerry, Dublin are definitely performing at a different level to us at the moment. Hopefully not for too much longer though.

Im from Dublin and I hope we perform at a higher level to Kerry for ever

Sonny678

Firstly before I add a few more measages before I add develop a few points. I want to say.

Congratulations to Dublin. These are great days to be a Dub.
In terms of greatness we can say for certain
This is the greatest Dublin team team ever , fact.
This is the best team in the country by a mile, fact.
This is one of the greatest teams ever , fact.

For me I always felt winning back to back titles in football was one of the hardest things to do in Irish modern sport. And it was. And still is. I never thought I would see a team winning 3 in a row in my lifetime in football after kerry achieved it in the mid 80s. And I believed 4 in a row in football was beyond impossible. But thats what this incredible team have done.

Its pretty simple if you look at the stats and other great teams from the past, 6 All Irelands including a 4 in a row means this Dublin team is undisputed the second greatest team ever. If they win the holy grail of Irish sport, the 5 in a row, something kerry kilkenny or even Garth Brooks couldnt do. Win 5 in a row they be will the undisputed greatest team ever. Its as simple as that. Well done to the Dubs. Great team great players, incredible achievement.

dog_pig

mickeyk wrote: »

Im not moving goalposts and your opinion is not a ‘fact’. I do think they got very close in 2016 and but for a blatant and undeniable refereeing mistake would have had a draw and replay, same as Mayo in the subsequent final. We can dispute a difference of a point or two in defeats if you want to take it that far.

If you're not then why have you brought up narratives, refereeing decisions, and repeatedly mentioned medals and success? This has nothing to do with any of that.

Are you sensitive to being made aware of the reality that Mayo competed with Dublin in a way that Kerry didn't? This isn't my opinion and it's not exactly controversial. As I've mentioned, in addition to the two draws Mayo have had in the same period, their scoring difference with Dublin is superior to Kerry's. On average Kerry's scoring deficit has been over double what Mayo's has been.

rm75

Anyway while its a matter of personal opinion I think we are all agreed the Dubs are currently tied with Kerry as the greatest team of all time. Should they win the AI next year they will be the undisputed greatest team of all time.

munster87

dunnerc wrote: »

Im from Dublin and I hope we perform at a higher level to Kerry for ever

Ha ten years ago our counties had contrasting positions. And in ten years time sure who knows, maybe even Mayo will be winning All Ireland’s!

Billy86

munster87 wrote: »

Ha ten years ago our counties had contrasting positions. And in ten years time sure who knows, maybe even Mayo will be winning All Ireland’s!

Now now, less of that nonsense talk please.

shockframe

People are being a bit harsh on Kerry.

Given how they have been in their worst state for 2 decades it is admirable that they have ran Dublin close the last 4 times.

People are looking at them for how badly they have fared since 2016. Similar to how Tyrone were judged on 1 bad day last year. Ask any Dublin fan about the ease of all the Kerry games the last decade. Might be surprising.

Mookie Blaylock

rm75 wrote: »

Anyway while its a matter of personal opinion I think we are all agreed the Dubs are currently tied with Kerry as the greatest team of all time. Should they win the AI next year they will be the undisputed greatest team of all time.

There is no agreement on that opinion of yours I'm afraid

Danjamin1

Mookie Blaylock wrote: »

There is no agreement on that opinion of yours I'm afraid

Ah yeah but you seem happy enough to change you’re opinion about what they need to do to be considered the GOAT that I firmly believe you will never consider them that.

rm75

Mookie Blaylock wrote: »

There is no agreement on that opinion of yours I'm afraid

So u already consider them the GOAT ? Personally i agree but winning next year will leave no room for argument.

LoughNeagh2017

Technically the greatest teams were the Ireland teams in that compromise rules series in the 2000s, they didn't always fare well against the Australians but if that squad played 2010s Dublin they would win.

I used to have this as my text message alert, a nice piece of commentary. "Big strong tall Derryman"

https://youtu.be/odUAG-UHD94?t=4m31s

rm75

Mookie Blaylock wrote: »

There is no agreement on that opinion of yours I'm afraid

Currently we have a number of teams that have won 4 in a row. Of those one now has an opportunity to make that 5. Should that happen then nobody can seriously dispute they would be the greatest team of all time.

tritium

TrueGael wrote: »

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DmLcA63W4AMyK8o.jpg

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DmLe6FMVsAQasSl.jpg


One is a true 'Once in a Lifetime' as evidenced by what happened post 86' the other is the product of a mass production line churning out player after player

You do realize that one of those is over 5 years and the other is over 8 years right?

munster87

rm75 wrote: »

Currently we have a number of teams that have won 4 in a row. Of those one now has an opportunity to make that 5. Should that happen then nobody can seriously dispute they would be the greatest team of all time.

It’s hard to say, can’t remember much of that Wexford team!

odyssey06

LoughNeagh2017 wrote: »

Technically the greatest teams were the Ireland teams in that compromise rules series in the 2000s, they didn't always fare well against the Australians but if that squad played 2010s Dublin they would win.

Ah now, if we start including them we'd have to consider the merits of every All Star team!

LoughNeagh2017

odyssey06 wrote: »

Ah now, if we start including them we'd have to consider the merits of every All Star team!

were there All star teams though? did the All Star teams play a match? I don't know, i never follow that all star carry on

Mookie Blaylock

rm75 wrote: »

Currently we have a number of teams that have won 4 in a row. Of those one now has an opportunity to make that 5. Should that happen then nobody can seriously dispute they would be the greatest team of all time.

Of course it can be disputed...and tbf...they will not be considered the greatest team of all time because the standard of opposition is poor...are they a greate team...yes...the greatest...nah... No matter what all the blue eyed boys on here think

odyssey06

LoughNeagh2017 wrote: »

were there All star teams though? did the All Star teams play a match? I don't know, i never follow that all star carry on

Well at least the All Stars are a designated Gaelic Football team.

All respect to our International Rules teams for competing in a Blood Bowl deathmatch but that wasn't gaelic football!