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Has Gaelic Football lost it's appeal?
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Have Dublin bought their Sucess?.
I am a Meath man and if I thought Dublin bought their last few All-Irelands I would have no problem telling them so. However fair is fair. And for me there is no question or doubt that they didnt.
For me its starting to turn into u r in the Dublin camp or the anti Dublin camp. Things in life are never black and white. I have a few criticisms of Dublin GAA which I will put up later but in terms of their greatness, there is no question we are looking at an incredible team.
The reasons why Dublin didnt buy sucess
1 The main reason why Dublin have been sucessful has been down to two men Pat Gilroy and Jim Galvin building a team in the image of Heffernans team. Let me explain.
In the 80s 90s and 00s Dublin were probably one of the most difficult oppnents to beat. There is coincidence that so many teams that defeated Dublin went onto win Sam afterwards. Playing in front of a packed Croker was the closed thing to an All-Ireland final.
Dublin teams in 80s 90s and 00s were always in the top teams in the country , full of skill and great players. Look at the Dublin team in early 90s late 80s eg Hargan Kennedy Barr Curran Heery Sheedy Farrell Sherlock Duff Rock McNally Redmond Galvin. Thats a serious team of players. But there was a soft under belly.
In so many matchs in 80s 90s and 00s v Meath kerry and Ulster teams Dublin were beaten. Dublin won 1 All Ireland in 26 years between 1984 and 2010. They reached 0 All Ireland finals between 1996 to 2010. In many close matchs Dublin would lose eg Meath 86 87 88 90 91 96 99 01. Kerry 84 85 01 09, Armagh 02, Tyrone 05 and 08, Donegal 92, Derry 93 , Down 94. One reason for was the whole Hill 16 image / idea.
Let me explain. Hill 16 is one of the great sights in Irish sport. It has intimated many teams in the past. But Meath kerry and Ulster teams used the Hill 16 to beat Dublin. There mantra was silence the Hill , beat the Dubs. In Meath Sean Boylan who defeated Dublin a remarkable 9 times and had 4 draws in championship v Dublin. His philosophy was stop Dublin getting a goal. Silence the hill. You will win. The Dubs would feed off the hill. The hill would go ballistic if Dublin scored a goal. The Dubs got a lift. Remarkably in those 9 victories over Dublin in over 10 years in the championship in every single of those 9 victories Boylan achieved ,Dublin did not score 1 goal. Every time in last 35 years Meath have stopped Dublin scoring a goal, kept them goal ess in a championship game. Meath won. The only game that this didn't happen was in the 2007 replay when Dublin defeated Meath with 20 points and 0 goals.
The Dubs played to the hill. There was a swagger to Dublin. In 00s it went up a level. Running onto the field clapping to hill 16, raising fists to the hill. This was not Heffernans Dublin. Heffernan Dublin was built before Hill 16. Modern Hill 16 was created after and during Heffos sucess 74 to 77. That Dublin team did not play to the hill. There was no clapping to the hill when they came on the field.
The feeling was in Meath if u kept Dublin goaless and really put it up to Dublin. They would be very difficult to beat. And they were .But there was a soft underbelly. Silence the Hill. Defeat the Dubs.
The reason why Dublin have been sucessful they have best players in the country but because Gilroy and Galvin and Farrell brillant management. They stopped all this clapping to the hill. This team was built more in the image of Heffernans teams. Mickey Whelan and Pat Gilroy built this modern sucessful Dublin team in the image of Dublin/St Vincent's/Heffernan teams. They stopped players kissing crests, humility is the main characteritic of this current Dublin team. In 80s 90s 00s the Dublin swagger was the main characteristic of those teams.
Dublins sucess is so much down to Pat Gilroy and Jim Galvin. The same way Meaths sucess was down to Sean Boylan. Or Clares teams sucess was down to Loughnane. Or Man Utds sucess was down to Ferguson. Of course they had great players. But every team needs a great manager. Dubln have had two eg Gilroy and Galvin. The players had talent but remeber in 2009 and 2010 Meath hammered Dublin by 5 goals and kerry hammered Dublin by 17 points. On those Dublins team who were beaten by record scores were Bernard and Alan Brogan Cluxton McMahon Mcarthy Sullivan Maculey Flynn McMemanin Connolly Bastick. It was not til Gilroy and Galvin worked with these players and it took Gilroy 3 years to suceed.
2 The problem I have with finance arguement is when Dublin finances were been increased in late 00s, Cluxton Sullivan McMahon O Connell Connolly McMemanin Macauley Bastick Flynn Brogans Mcarthy were all on the Dublin senior team. You cannot say players the above development was down to finance when they just got on the team when increase in funds occurred. Callaghan and Fenton and future Dublin players will have come through in the period of increased funding, but these current players, no.
3 This seems to me to be a golden generation. Football goes in cycles. Dublin have a great every 40 or 50 years. Dublin had a great team in 1920s 1970s and this decade. I do believe we will see more frequent Dublin teams. Simlar to kerry. Kerry have a great team every second decade. Kerry have had great teams in 1930s, 1950s, 1970s early 80s, 00s and probaly in 2020s. Dublin should decline massively in the next decade. If they dont and continue to win three in a row or 6 All Irelands in 8 years in 2020s then finance is an issue. Finance is the reasons. Because no county in hurling and football produced their greatest team ever continued that sucess well into future. Any time a county had their greatest team. The following period they declined massively after that team broke up.
Corks hurlers greatest team was in 40s and 50s. The 60s was a poor period for Cork hurling. It was not till late 70s they produced another great team.
Tippearey greatest team was in 60s. The 70s was worst decade ever for Tipp..Tipp from 1972 to 1979 did not win a match in Munster. It was not til late 80s Tipp produced another great team
Kilkenny had their greatest team in 00s . Even under Cody kilkenny have declined since.
Limerick had their greatest team in 30s. limerick took 40 years before they ever won liam Mcarthy again.
Offaly had greatest sucess in 80s and 90s. Offaly went into massive decline after and have never recovered.
In football kerry had greatest team in late 70s early 80s. Kerry had its biggest famine afterwards. 11 years til they won Sam.
Dublin had a great team in 20s, they didnt win an All Ireland in 30s and went into decline afterwards.
Dublin had great sucess in 70s and early 80s. The next 30 years Dublin won 1 All Ireland.
Galway had their greatest/ most sucessful period with 4 Sams between 56 to 66. It took Galway 32 years to win Sam aftetwards.
Down had a great team in 90s. They havent won Ulster title sincs in 25 years.
Meath had their greatest team and most sucess in the 80s and 90s reaching 9 All Ireland finals including replays. Since Meath have declined and havent reached an All Ireland final in 19 years.
Offaly had their most sucessful period between 71 to 82 with 3 Sams. Offaly went into massive decline and never recovered.
Kildare had their greatest team/ most sucess in 1920s. kildare went into decline for 50 years after.
Louth had greatest team in 50s. They havent won Leinster title since .
Tyrone had their most successful period in 00s with 3 Sams. They havent won Sam.since.
Wexford had their most successful period in 1914 to 18. The county declined afterwards and never recovered.
So in summary every team in hurling or football who had their most successful period or greatest team went into decline in the years straight after that team broke up. Most have never really recovered. Dublin will recover. Dublin have always being strong. I can see a great Dublin team in 2030s. There is record number of youngsters in primary schools at the moment. Many in Dublin. They r watching Dublin win All-Ireland. In 2030s I can see players coming from that generation winning many Sams for Dublin.
Dublin should decline in 2020s especially in mid and late 20s. When Cluxton and Co retire. If Dublin dont then finances are the reason. For no team has ever continued with sucess after a great team broke up.
In the last 3 to 4 years at underage players coming through are in the period Dublin finance has occurred. Surely Dublin should be winning 5 minors not kerry. How come if Dublin have all this finance how come they were hammered by kildare in under 20 final and beaten by Meath at minor level 4 times in last 4 years in leinster minor championship. How come Wicklow defeated Dublin at minor level this year. Surely Dublin at underage should be hoovering up minor leinster and minor All-Irelands. These underage Dublin players will play senior in mid 20s and late 2020s. They are not as good as Connolly Cluxton and Co. I can see Dublin having a poor 2020s. I know people will not agree. But when Tipp won 4 All Irelands in 5 years in 60s no one predicted their decline afterwards. No one predicted in 86 after kerry won 8 All Irelands in 12 years , it would be 11 years again before kerry won Sam again.
Its very simple if Dublin win piles of All Irelands in 2020s especially in mid to late 2020s and that continues into 2030s , then finance is the reason. For that would mean unprecedented levels sucess in the GAA. Even kerry or kilkenny have not had that sort of sucess. But at the present it looks cyclical. Dublin just have a great team , great players and have achieved an incredible achievement.0 -
Dublin supporters. Welcome to Meath footballers Tyrone footballers and Clare hurlers world. There has been massive increase in criticism regards Dublin recently. This is very unusual. I cannot remember much or any criticism of the Dubs in 90s or 00s. They werent as sucessful of course. When Dublin won in 2011 there was alot of praise and people saw this as good thing. 7 years later the Dubs are being heavily criticised. I have a theory why?.
In the GAA world if anything new or unprecedented happens people are more likely to criticise. Let me explain. When kilkenny Tipp or Cork win liam Mcarthy or kerry Dublin Cork or Galway win Sam everything is rosey in GAA land. Any other county is nearly always criticised if they suceed. Anything unprecedented , outside the traditional top counties it gets more criticism. Well of course Dublin are a traditional county. When Dublin win 1 All Ireland there is no problem. But Dublin winning 6 in 8 years. That is unprecedented. When kilkenny or kerry win multiple All.Irelands there is little criticism. This is not new or unprecedented. People accept this.
Yes the Dubs are being treated unfairly. There is a definite difference in the way kilkenny or kerry or praised when they win multiple All.Irelands. The Dubs get criticised . The reason is say you are beaten by a team. You say Meath are to rough, Tyrone play puke football and underhand tactics Clare are to physical and Dublin have a money advantage. Then it gives a county an excuse. It like they were not beaten fairly. Its like they were not beaten at all. I dont know if that makes sense. But there is no doubt, people accept kilkenny and kerry winning 4 in a row. But not Dublin. The same way people accept kilkenny Tipp and Cork winning hurling titles, but not Clare.
Here is some examples
In late 80s Galway won 3 hurling titles. This was unprecedented for Galway. Galway were heavily criticised at the time for ruining hurling with their short passing possession game. 20 years later Cork won a two in a row with a more possession game. They were described as revolutionising the game and highly praised.
In late 90s Clare won 2 titles in 3 years. This was unprecedented for Clare. Clare were heavily criticised at the time for bringing to much physicality to the game of hurling. 10 years later kilkenny won 4 in a row bringing physicality to a level we had never seen before in hurling. They were called greatest team ever.
In 60s Down won 3 All-Irelands . This was unprecedented for Down and new. Down at the time were called upstarts. They were criticised at the time for ruining football by a playing a short passing possession game. In the next decade kerry and Dublin won All-Irelands with a more hand passing game. The Dubs and kerry were called grreatest teams ever.
In 1988 Meath won two in a row..This was unprecedented for Meath and new. In 88 final Meath were criticised and the final was criticised for being a rough match. It was a tough hard match between two big physical teams. Nothing more nothing less. 5 years earlier Dublin won an All-Ireland in the most violent final in Irish sporting history. The Dublin players were praised and called heroric and labeled the 12 Apostles.
In 00s Tyrone won 3 All-Irelands this was unprecedented. Tyrone had a defensive system with sweepers and blanket defence. There football was called puke football and they were criticised for underhand tactics eg sledging. Donegal won All All Ireland in 2012 with a more defensive system they were labelled as destroying gaelic football. Kerry in 2014 won an All-Ireland with a defensive system eg sweepers blanket defence. There was no criticism , they were praised.
Dublin won 6 All-Irelands in 8 years in this decade. This is unprecedented and new in the GAA world
.They are criticised about their finances and money buying All-Irelands. In 70s kerry won 8 Sams in 00s kilkenny won 6 All-Irelands they were not criticised at all.
So to Dublin supporters welcome to Meath Tyrone and Donegal footballers and Clare and Galway hurlers world. Any county that has unusual levels of sucess outside the norm are criticised in gaa land.0 -
Its very simple if Dublin win piles of All Irelands in 2020s especially in mid to late 2020s and that continues into 2030s , then finance is the reason. For that would mean unprecedented levels sucess in the GAA. Even kerry or kilkenny have not had that sort of sucess. But at the present it looks cyclical. Dublin just have a great team , great players and have achieved an incredible achievement.
When you say Kerry or Kilkenny have not had that kind of success it is problematic as you don't specifically define what "that kind of success" is numerically. But notwithstanding that I would say (to the part in bold) yes they have. Kilkenny won half their All Ireland hurling titles since Limerick won their previous championship in 1973. Kerry have won half of their football championships since 1962. Not sure why finance must be the sole reason if Dublin do it since other counties have done it without reference to finance.
You also mentioned Kerry (1980s) and Tipperary's (1960s) successful teams and how nobody could have predicted the level of their decline soon afterwards. Well, in fact, the seeds were there - the core of both teams were old by the time they won their last finals, and under-age success had dried up considerably.
Tipperary's senior achievements of the 1960s were built on six minor All Irelands in the previous decade. Their record of the 1970s was built on a record of just one Minor All-Ireland title in 21 years.
Likewise Kerry footballers success of the late 1970s and '80s was built on two Minor All-Irelands and four Under 21 titles between 1973 and '80. Their post-86 record reflected their ability to win just one minor title in 14 years after 1980 and one Under 21 title in 18 years after 1977.
There are similar indicators there now for Kilkenny hurlers with underage success having really diminished for them. They might have a fair wait ahead of them. By the time January arrives they'll be into four years without an All-Ireland. In the blink of an eye it could stretch to a decade. And of course Cork's senior record (a decade and a half without an All Ireland title which was unthinkable in earlier decades) has an abysmal underage record (by their historical standards) as a direct foundation.
Dublin are maybe slightly different in that they are moving the team on all the time with a few new players every year so their under-age record might not be as significant as a predictor of the future senior outcome.
I would be surprised if Dublin fall off a cliff in the manner of the counties you mention, especially with Meath and Kildare seemingly unwilling or unable to punch their weight.
The Super 8s and the backdoor will also buffer against the bad days. You mentioned Tipperary hurlers not winning a match for a decade in Munster...………...well, they lost by a point three times (twice to a Cork team which almost won four All Irelands in a row) and lost three replays as well (which were not the one-point defeats either!) during that time. With the backdoor their decline would hardly have been so absolute. Such an eclipse of a team will not happen to any modern day power.0 -
I don't mind any county winning.
Once there is a level playing field
Which there isn't in terms of coaching funding, sponsorship and facilities0 -
nice_guy80 wrote: »I don't mind any county winning.
Once there is a level playing field
Which there isn't in terms of coaching funding, sponsorship and facilities
This is one of those things that looks reasonable and sensible but makes no sense at all. It would be an unacceptable misuse of resources to ploughing fortunes into counties which have failed to make any impact over the years, and are always unlikely to do so, just to be seen to be equitable.0 -
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It’s hard to drum up the energy to argue against utter drivel like this, so yes you’re right. People shouldn’t even be supporting unsuccessful counties. Just pick one of the big teams like our Premiership supporting “best fans in the world”.
Which would mean Dublin as they’re the only team winning all Irelands.0 -
Powerhouse wrote: »When you say Kerry or Kilkenny have not had that kind of success it is problematic as you don't specifically define what "that kind of success" is numerically. But notwithstanding that I would say (to the part in bold) yes they have. Kilkenny won half their All Ireland hurling titles since Limerick won their previous championship in 1973. Kerry have won half of their football championships since 1962. Not sure why finance must be the sole reason if Dublin do it since other counties have done it without reference to finance.
You also mentioned Kerry (1980s) and Tipperary's (1960s) successful teams and how nobody could have predicted the level of their decline soon afterwards. Well, in fact, the seeds were there - the core of both teams were old by the time they won their last finals, and under-age success had dried up considerably.
Tipperary's senior achievements of the 1960s were built on six minor All Irelands in the previous decade. Their record of the 1970s was built on a record of just one Minor All-Ireland title in 21 years.
Likewise Kerry footballers success of the late 1970s and '80s was built on two Minor All-Irelands and four Under 21 titles between 1973 and '80. Their post-86 record reflected their ability to win just one minor title in 14 years after 1980 and one Under 21 title in 18 years after 1977.
There are similar indicators there now for Kilkenny hurlers with underage success having really diminished for them. They might have a fair wait ahead of them. By the time January arrives they'll be into four years without an All-Ireland. In the blink of an eye it could stretch to a decade. And of course Cork's senior record (a decade and a half without an All Ireland title which was unthinkable in earlier decades) has an abysmal underage record (by their historical standards) as a direct foundation.
Dublin are maybe slightly different in that they are moving the team on all the time with a few new players every year so their under-age record might not be as significant as a predictor of the future senior outcome.
I would be surprised if Dublin fall off a cliff in the manner of the counties you mention, especially with Meath and Kildare seemingly unwilling or unable to punch their weight.
The Super 8s and the backdoor will also buffer against the bad days. You mentioned Tipperary hurlers not winning a match for a decade in Munster...………...well, they lost by a point three times (twice to a Cork team which almost won four All Irelands in a row) and lost three replays as well (which were not the one-point defeats either!) during that time. With the backdoor their decline would hardly have been so absolute. Such an eclipse of a team will not happen to any modern day power.
1 No one I mean no one predicted that Tipp in the mid 60s would go 8 years in the next decade without a championship win. Or if you said in mid 60s the next great Tipp team would be 20 years later in 1989, you would have been called insane. Its obvious now, but at the time it definatly wasnt.
The same for kerry, for if you said in 1986 after kerry won 8 titles in 12 years, that they would not reach even an All Ireland final in 11 years, your sanity wud be questioned. Its obvious now, but it wasnt at the time
Im just making the point there is no gurantee that Dublins will continue or be similar in 2020s. It would highly unusual in GAA terms .
You never mentined
Wexford decline after 1918, or kildares decline after 1920s, or Mayos or Cavans decline after 1950s, or Offalys decline after 1970s or 80s, or Dublin decline after 70s, or Meaths decline since 80s and 90s, or Galways deline after 60s, or Downs decline after 90s, or Armagh decline after 00s etc etc. Thats an awful amout of counties that went into serious decline after their most succesful period. Most of the above have never recovered. And each time no one saw it coming. In 1966 no one thought it would be 32 years before Galway win Sam again.
The Super 8s will help Dublin but in mid to late 20s there should be a dip when Cluxton retires that would be the natural cycle of events. Even in kilkenny or Kerry.
Kerry have a great team then they have a dip.
1950s A great kerry team win 3 All Irelands
1960s After a great decade kerry decline in the 60s along with 90s and this decade are kerrys worst decade ever. Kerry lose 5 semi finals and finals in 60s Galway (2) and Down (3)
1970s /1980s Great kerry team win 8 All Irelands, kerrys most sucessful period ever is followed by kerrys least sucesful period ever eg
eg 1975 to 1986 8 All Ireland wins in 11 All Ireland finals is followed by
1987 to 1996 0 All Ireland wins and 0 All Irelands finals
In 00s Kerry won 5 All Irelands followed by
In this decade kerry won 1 All Ireland .
In summary kerrys two most sucessful periods in the last 80 years was followed by their worst decade ever.
The most sucessful kerry period in last 80 years eg 1975 to 86 8 All Irelands was followed by kerry least sucessful decade ever eg 90s 1 All Ireland
Kerrys second most sucessful period in last 80 years eg 00s 5 All Irelands is followed by kerrys least sucessful decade ever along with 90s eg this decade .
So kerry have definatly dipped, declined in football terms after having great teams.
Kilkenny is similar enough
Kilkenny won 3 in row 1911 1912 1913. This was followed by a decline
Kilkenny went 9 years without All Ireland sucess 1914 to 1922
Kilkenny won 1 All Ireland in 20s this was followed by decline
Kilkenny went 9 years without All Ireland sucess 1923 to 1932
Kilkenny with Lory Meagher won 4 All Irelands in the 1930s this was followed by decline
kilkenny went 8 years without All Ireland sucess 1940 to 1947
kilkenny won 1 All Ireland in 50s this was followed by decline
kilkenny from late 60s early 70s enter their most sucessful period. While sucess increases this cycle of producing a sucessful great team then dipping contiuned in the 80s 90s and this decade.
Kilkenny in last 40 years have a great team then decline for 7 or 8 or 9 years
In 1970s kilkenny won 4 All Irelands
In early 80s kilkenny won 2 in a row but kilkenny went 9 years after without an All Ireland between 1984 to 1992. In the mid late 80s early 90s kilkenny went into decline and dipped for 9 years. Offaly became a bogey team and defeated kilkenny in 1984 1985 1989 1990.
After 9 year dip, kilkenny produced another brillant team winnig two in a row eg 92 93. After 93 kilkenny went 7 years without winning All Ireland losing to Offaly in 1994 95 98 .
In 00s Kilkenny won 7 All Irelands and this continued into decade
But Kilkenny havent won in 3 years in this decade, they have dipped and with the strength of limerick Galway Cork Waterford Clare Dublin Wexford the idea that kilkenny wouldnt win Liam for another 3 or 4 years or even way more is very possible.
So Kilkenny win 2 All Irelands in 80s this is followed
by 9 years without All Ireland sucess
Kilkenny win 2 All Ireland in 90s this is followed
by 7 years without All Ireland sucess ( I know kilkenny reached finals in 98 99 but they definatly dipped in mid 90s and late 90s)
Kilkenny have had their most sucessful period ever 2000 to 2014 could this be followed by 8 or 9 year without All Ireland sucess. It is possbile. Only Brian Codys genius might pull an All Ireland out of the bag. You would have to say limerick Galway Cork and Clare have better teams now. While Waterford or probaly better and Wexford and Dublin are closing the gap. And if Tipp get their act together they are a better team then kilkenny also. What are the chances of kilkenny not winning liam Mcarthy til mid or late 2020s. It would follow the similar pattern kilkenny have had after other great teams.
But it must said in winter 2012 after kilkenny had won 2 in a row , and kilkenny had won 6 of the last 7 All Irelands eg 06 07 08 09 11 12. If you said in next five years that Clare Galway and limerick would win the All Ireland no one would have believed . And if you said by end of the decade kilkenny would be going into 4th year without liam Mcarthy and probaly not in the top 4 teams in the country eg limerick Galway Cork Clare are probaly best teams in the country this year. No one would have saw that coming in the early part of this decade. But if you looked at kilkennys past sucesses, ups and downs, it was obviously going to happen.Powerhouse wrote: »
I would be surprised if Dublin fall off a cliff in the manner of the counties you mention, especially with Meath and Kildare seemingly unwilling or unable to punch their weight.
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When have kildare punched their weight probaly 5 years in last 100 years eg 1927, 1928, 1956, 1998 and 2000. Kildare have punched their weight in late 20s and late 90s. Kildare in 30s 40s 50s 60s 70s 80s 00s and this decade have not being a top sucessful football county.
While Meath were sucessful in 30s 40s 50s 60s 70s 80s 90s and 00s. Could it be that is it for Meath. Look at Cavan sucessful from 1900 to 1950, have Meath not punched above their weight for 80 or 90 years went toe to toe with Dublin for 80 years in the most unequal rivalry in Irish sport. Have Meath not returned to the pack. And the idea Meath could go 40 or 50 years or more from this year without All Ireland sucess is possible. Mayo and Cavan havent won an All Ireland for 70 years, Roscommon 80 years, Kildare 90s years, Limerick 120 years. When a county declines it can permanent. Actually for most it is eg
Wexford 1914 to 18 Wexford havent won All Ireland
Galway won 4 Sams between 1956 to 66. It took Galway 32 years to win Sam again0 -
1 No one I mean no one predicted that Tipp in the mid 60s would go 8 years in the next decade without a championship win. Or if you said in mid 60s the next great Tipp team would be 20 years later in 1989, you would have been called insane. Its obvious now, but at the time it definatly wasnt.
The same for kerry, for if you said in 1986 after kerry won 8 titles in 12 years, that they would not reach even an All Ireland final in 11 years, your sanity wud be questioned. Its obvious now, but it wasnt at the time
Im just making the point there is no gurantee that Dublins will continue or be similar in 2020s. It would highly unusual in GAA terms .
You never mentined
Wexford decline after 1918, or kildares decline after 1920s, or Mayos or Cavans decline after 1950s, or Offalys decline after 1970s or 80s, or Dublin decline after 70s, or Meaths decline since 80s and 90s, or Galways deline after 60s, or Downs decline after 90s, or Armagh decline after 00s etc etc. Thats an awful amout of counties that went into serious decline after their most succesful period. Most of the above have never recovered. And each time no one saw it coming. In 1966 no one thought it would be 32 years before Galway win Sam again.
The Super 8s will help Dublin but in mid to late 20s there should be a dip when Cluxton retires that would be the natural cycle of events. Even in kilkenny or Kerry.
Kerry have a great team then they have a dip.
1950s A great kerry team win 3 All Irelands
1960s After a great decade kerry decline in the 60s along with 90s and this decade are kerrys worst decade ever. Kerry lose 5 semi finals and finals in 60s Galway (2) and Down (3)
1970s /1980s Great kerry team win 8 All Irelands, kerrys most sucessful period ever is followed by kerrys least sucesful period ever eg
eg 1975 to 1986 8 All Ireland wins in 11 All Ireland finals is followed by
1987 to 1996 0 All Ireland wins and 0 All Irelands finals
In 00s Kerry won 5 All Irelands followed by
In this decade kerry won 1 All Ireland .
In summary kerrys two most sucessful periods in the last 80 years was followed by their worst decade ever.
The most sucessful kerry period in last 80 years eg 1975 to 86 8 All Irelands was followed by kerry least sucessful decade ever eg 90s 1 All Ireland
Kerrys second most sucessful period in last 80 years eg 00s 5 All Irelands is followed by kerrys least sucessful decade ever along with 90s eg this decade .
So kerry have definatly dipped, declined in football terms after having great teams.
Kilkenny is similar enough
Kilkenny won 3 in row 1911 1912 1913. This was followed by a decline
Kilkenny went 9 years without All Ireland sucess 1914 to 1922
Kilkenny won 1 All Ireland in 20s this was followed by decline
Kilkenny went 9 years without All Ireland sucess 1923 to 1932
Kilkenny with Lory Meagher won 4 All Irelands in the 1930s this was followed by decline
kilkenny went 8 years without All Ireland sucess 1940 to 1947
kilkenny won 1 All Ireland in 50s this was followed by decline
kilkenny from late 60s early 70s enter their most sucessful period. While sucess increases this cycle of producing a sucessful great team then dipping contiuned in the 80s 90s and this decade.
Kilkenny in last 40 years have a great team then decline for 7 or 8 or 9 years
In 1970s kilkenny won 4 All Irelands
In early 80s kilkenny won 2 in a row but kilkenny went 9 years after without an All Ireland between 1984 to 1992. In the mid late 80s early 90s kilkenny went into decline and dipped for 9 years. Offaly became a bogey team and defeated kilkenny in 1984 1985 1989 1990.
After 9 year dip, kilkenny produced another brillant team winnig two in a row eg 92 93. After 93 kilkenny went 6 years without winning All Ireland losing to Offaly in 1994 95 98 .
In 00s Kilkenny won 7 All Irelands and this continued into decade
But Kilkenny havent won in 3 years in this decade, they have dipped and with the strength of limerick Galway Cork Waterford Clare Dublin Wexford the idea that kilkenny wouldnt win Liam for another 3 or 4 years or even way more is very possible.
So Kilkenny win 2 All Irelands in 80s this is followed
by 9 years without All Ireland sucess
Kilkenny win 2 All Ireland in 90s this is followed
by 6 years without All Ireland sucess ( I know kilkenny reached finals in 98 99 but they definatly dipped in mid 90s and late 90s)
Kilkenny have had their most sucessful period ever 2000 to 2014 could this be followed by 8 or 9 year without All Ireland sucess. It is possbile. Only Brian Codys genius might pull an All Ireland out of the bag. You would have to say limerick Galway Cork and Clare have better teams now. While Waterford or probaly better and Wexford and Dublin are closing the gap. And if Tipp get their act together they are a better team then kilkenny also. What are the chances of kilkenny not winning liam Mcarthy til mid or late 2020s. It would follow the similar pattern kilkenny have had after other great teams.
But it must said in winter 2012 after kilkenny had won 2 in a row , and kilkenny had won 6 of the last 7 All Irelands eg 06 07 08 09 11 12. If you said in next five years that Clare Galway and limerick would win the All Ireland no one would have believed . And if you said by end of the decade kilkenny would be going into 4th year without liam Mcarthy and probaly not in the top 4 teams in the country eg limerick Galway Cork Clare are probaly best teams in the country this year. No one would have saw that coming in the early part of this decade. But if you looked at kilkennys past sucesses, ups and downs, it was obviously going to happen.
When have kildare punched their weight probaly 5 years in last 100 years eg 1927, 1928, 1956, 1998 and 2000. Kildare have punched their weight in late 20s and late 90s. Kildare in 30s 40s 50s 60s 70s 80s 00s and this decade have not being a top sucessful football county.
While Meath were sucessful in 30s 40s 50s 60s 70s 80s 90s and 00s. Could it be that is it for Meath. Look at Cavan sucessful from 1900 to 1950, have Meath not punched above their weight for 80 or 90 years went toe to toe with Dublin for 80 years in the most unequal rivalry in Irish sport. Have Meath not returned to the pack. And the idea Meath could go 40 or 50 years or more from this year without All Ireland sucess is possible. Mayo and Cavan havent won an All Ireland for 70 years, Roscommon 80 years, Kildare 90s years, Limerick 120 years. When a county declines it can permanent. Actually for most it is eg
Wexford 1914 to 18 Wexford havent won All Ireland
Galway won 4 Sams between 1956 to 66. It took Galway 32 years to win Sam again
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There’s no doubt that there’s 2 massive issues affecting the appeal of Gaelic football right now.
1-the style of play of most teams, including Dublin.
2-The continuous domination of Dublin.
In the first case teams have reached a level of fitness and skill where the most effective way of playing is to get almost everyone behind the ball when you’re defending and when you get the ball to keep hand passing it around until you create a chance. You almost never see a 50/50 ball or contest for possession now. The rare exceptions are from the odd long kick out and the odd high ball into a big full forward.
This results in a lack of excitement in the game and why the crowd go completely quiet during these long periods of possession, as it’s pretty boring to watch and lacks any suspense.
This is not going to change any time soon as the only tactic to defeat a massed defense is to keep possession until you manage to engineer a bit of space to get a shot in. The only solution is a serious rule change.
My two options would be 1) at least 4 players in each half of the field; or 2) have 2 30 yard lines and between these lines 2 consecutive hand passes are illegal.
The second issue of Dublin’s dominance has been discussed at length and people have made their minds up - heard Jarlath Burns on the other day talking about how gaa was dying in Dublin in early 2000s and that there’d be no gaa in Dublin now if they hadn’t pumped all that cash in. If people want to believe that, fair enough.
Anyway the only solution is to split Dublin into 2/3/4 counties the way it’s already been done at local government level.0 -
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There’s no doubt that there’s 2 massive issues affecting the appeal of Gaelic football right now.
1-the style of play of most teams, including Dublin.
2-The continuous domination of Dublin.
In the first case teams have reached a level of fitness and skill where the most effective way of playing is to get almost everyone behind the ball when you’re defending and when you get the ball to keep hand passing it around until you create a chance. You almost never see a 50/50 ball or contest for possession now. The rare exceptions are from the odd long kick out and the odd high ball into a big full forward.
This results in a lack of excitement in the game and why the crowd go completely quiet during these long periods of possession, as it’s pretty boring to watch and lacks any suspense.
This is not going to change any time soon as the only tactic to defeat a massed defense is to keep possession until you manage to engineer a bit of space to get a shot in. The only solution is a serious rule change.
My two options would be 1) at least 4 players in each half of the field; or 2) have 2 30 yard lines and between these lines 2 consecutive hand passes are illegal.
The second issue of Dublin’s dominance has been discussed at length and people have made their minds up - heard Jarlath Burns on the other day talking about how gaa was dying in Dublin in early 2000s and that there’d be no gaa in Dublin now if they hadn’t pumped all that cash in. If people want to believe that, fair enough.
Anyway the only solution is to split Dublin into 2/3/4 counties the way it’s already been done at local government level.
I know big issues with styles of play in Gaelic Football. What problem do you have with Dublin style of play.
On keeping 4 players in each half is good in theory but difficult to do a club level as would need second referee. After every 4/5 hand passes ball should be kicked. They experimented with this in early 90s but never changed it.
On splitting Dublin would be hard very hard to implement as GAA in non existent in a lot of southside areas and south/north inner city.0 -
I'm not sure comparing Dublin's current dominance with Kilkenny's in the late 00s is really appropriate. Kilkenny were a brilliant team but at the same time we all knew their dominance wouldn't last forever as they had no advantage in terms of underages structures, facilities, finance and playing pool over the other strong hurling counties.
So it was inevitable that over time the other counties would catch up (or KK would fall back to the pack, whatever way you want to look at it). But Dublin have a huge advantage (not their fault) over every other county in terms of those factors I listed above. For that reason I don't think its realistic to expect other any other county to be able to compete long term with the behemoth that is Dublin and unless there is some radical changes I think it's inevitable that Dublin will win 8 from every 10 all irelands going forward. Anyone who believes this current Dublin success is just a "phase" or a "Dublin golden era" is deluded in my opinion.0 -
Powerhouse wrote: »This is one of those things that looks reasonable and sensible but makes no sense at all. It would be an unacceptable misuse of resources to ploughing fortunes into counties which have failed to make any impact over the years, and are always unlikely to do so, just to be seen to be equitable.
sure the Dubs failed to make much of an impact for a few decades there until they got their funding!!
why not. that is the beauty of the likes of the NFL in america.
The worst teams get the pick of the best players to ensure every team has a decent chance.
in the GAA they seem to do the opposite.
counties who were successful in the past - likes of Offaly, Mayo, Roscommon, Donegal, Cavan have enough geographical and financial disadvantages for their county teams
Never mind throwing in the fact that the GAA are funnelling in money to the most populated, centrally located county and with the strongest economy in the country!0 -
nice_guy80 wrote: »sure the Dubs failed to make much of an impact for a few decades there until they got their funding!!
why not. that is the beauty of the likes of the NFL in america.
The worst teams get the pick of the best players to ensure every team has a decent chance.
in the GAA they seem to do the opposite.
counties who were successful in the past - likes of Offaly, Mayo, Roscommon, Donegal, Cavan have enough geographical and financial disadvantages for their county teams
Never mind throwing in the fact that the GAA are funnelling in money to the most populated, centrally located county and with the strongest economy in the country!
Dublin is in the midlands now?
Your geography will hopefully improve when you go to secondary school. Here's a lollipop.0 -
Dublin is in the midlands now?
Your geography will hopefully improve when you go to secondary school. Here's a lollipop.
ha! I actually teach geography.
every motorway and railway leads to Dublin
it is the easiest part of the country to travel to and from
it gets most of the jobs and new infrastructure0 -
nice_guy80 wrote: »
why not. that is the beauty of the likes of the NFL in america.
The worst teams get the pick of the best players to ensure every team has a decent chance.
Irrelevant. That's a professional sport. Amateur players do not have those options.0 -
[QUOTE=Sonny678;108024491
Im just making the point there is no gurantee that Dublins will continue or be similar in 2020s. It would highly unusual in GAA terms .
[/QUOTE]
Who said anything about guarantees? Nobody ever ever ever said that anyone's success is "guaranteed". All we can do is look at evidence.
If Dublin's success continues in the 2020s it would be "highly unusual"? Would it really?
"Highly unusual" is actually quite common as you have shown yourself in the confetti of statistics you have provided. You mentioned so many counties I have a headache but Wexford, Kildare, Cavan etc. etc. all had times when becoming irrelevant at the top level might have seemed "highly unusual" too.
Dublin winning four in a row is highly unusual. Anyone winning four in a row is highly unusual. Dublin, or anyone, winning six All Ireland titles in eight years is highly unusual. But it has happened.0 -
When have kildare punched their weight probaly 5 years in last 100 years eg 1927, 1928, 1956, 1998 and 2000. Kildare have punched their weight in late 20s and late 90s. Kildare in 30s 40s 50s 60s 70s 80s 00s and this decade have not being a top sucessful football county.
What exactly is the "weight" aspect of "punching above their weight" in terms of inter county football/hurling.
For example, taking Kildare in the late 90s, very early noughties, (and putting aside my allegiance) their population is 7th highest out of the 32, hurling is a distant second to football (although it has grown in recent times), they don't have a League of Ireland team etc and are surrounded by teams like Dublin, Meath and Laois with similar attributes.
To say they punched above their weight in 97 - 2001 is ill informed given all these factors never mind the fact that squad was excellent and had one of the greatest managers over them.
We should have beaten you in 1997 (the 3 game classic) when you were current AI champions and that kickstarted it all. As well as winning Division 1 of the NFL.
So I think that is the standard we should have expected at the time tbh.0 -
In practical terms, Dublin is centrally located.0
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Now that we have established that Dublin is in fact the centre of Ireland can we have an end to people whinging that it's easy for Dublin players to get to training but very difficult for players from other counties based in Dublin to do so. Clearly with the great transport access and Dublin's central location there should be no problem there.0
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nice_guy80 wrote: »why not. that is the beauty of the likes of the NFL in america.
The worst teams get the pick of the best players to ensure every team has a decent chance.
Though it's worth noting that the NFL don't see the need to funnel resources (players or money) to teams in Alaska, Dakota, Hawaii, Utah or many many more. People in those states/areas can choose to support one of the existing teams, raise $3B to maybe be allowed apply to join, or else not support anyone at all - no-one cares too much about them either way.
So it may not be the model that would suit the GAA.0 -
It’s a lot more interesting and intelligent than a lot of contributions I’ve seen. I know he gets repetitive but still if you’ve got the time getting a potted history of the gaa isn’t the worst thing you could do.
To be fair there's just too much information. Like, Kilkenny have had many periods when they have won little. We don't really need them spelled out individually in a topic about the appeal of Gaelic Football. It just takes too long.
That said, it goes against the grain for me to say something like that about someone who has the interest and takes the time and effort to write that material in posts. It also in a nice antidote to the "I enjoy it because there's fierce fitness and intensity and everyone isn't drinking at half time like they use to do in the '80s" mentality. But still...………………..0 -
I think it has lost its appeal because the game has become a less exciting with its careful build-up and very low risk football nowadays. Possession is king now where teams have up to or over 65% of the ball mainly with hand passing going sideways and backwards. Dublin last Sunday had 244 passes against Tyrone. Only 54 of them were kickpasses.
The top teams are all coached now not to have any player playing off the cuff. The kickout use to be one of the most appealing things in the game as top midfielders contested for the ball but now the keeper kick outs are to the wings to unmarked men. The final last Sunday only had 10 contestable balls kicked out around the middle in the entire game.
Fitness and strength is a bigger focus than skill and flair now and there is very few if any maverick footballers left in modern football as they would not be allowed to express themselves within the strict programed system of play.
More rule changes on the way but managers will find ways around them to keep the game low risk and less exciting for the neutrals watching.0 -
manofwisdom wrote: »I think it has lost its appeal because the game has become a less exciting with its careful build-up and very low risk football nowadays. Possession is king now where teams have up to or over 65% of the ball mainly with hand passing going sideways and backwards. Dublin last Sunday had 244 passes against Tyrone. Only 54 of them were kickpasses.
Just to develop this point, it is notable how young people are now starting to be governed by statistics in how they perceive enjoyment of the game. I remember during the 2016 championship someone on here being very excited by the number of "plays" Ciarán Kilkenny had in the quarter final v Donegal despite the fact that in most cases he has hand-passing the ball two feet to an unmarked colleague and taking it back unmarked himself while all the time clocking up "plays".
Obviously at that stage Dublin had made a decision that if they were ahead and they other crowd wanted to defend in huge numbers then all they had to do was keep the ball and winning became very easy. But what amazed me was the view of so many that this was brilliant because the stats were going through the roof irrespective of the context or entertainment value. So maybe what appealed to spectators years ago e.g. individual contests between players who were identifiably marking each other and the perception of unpredictability where possession was a real contest and not something determined by a couple of individuals is different to what will appeal to people in the future.
I remember after last year's hurling final (2017) being asked by an inter-county camogie player what I though of the match and I replied that I though it was scrappy enough but was not helped by the fact that the outcome (in my opinion) was obvious from about two minutes into the game as Galway had got the start Waterford needed. She replied "but the intensity was great". I come from a frame of mind where intensity is a given - a basic requirement to perform in a top-class contest and not what determines the attractiveness of the game. But others think differently.0 -
Powerhouse wrote: »To be fair there's just too much information. Like, Kilkenny have had many periods when they have won little. We don't really need them spelled out individually in a topic about the appeal of Gaelic Football. It just takes too long.
That said, it goes against the grain for me to say something like that about someone who has the interest and takes the time and effort to write that material in posts. It also in a nice antidote to the "I enjoy it because there's fierce fitness and intensity and everyone isn't drinking at half time like they use to do in the '80s" mentality. But still...………………..
Thanks Powerhouse, I think. I think there is a compliment in there somewhere.
I repeat sometimes, as sometimes I feel people take my points up wrong. So If repeat, people get the message. And My longwinded style can be difficult to follow, alrite.
Anyway my general point, which I know very few agree with, that we should see a dip from Dublin in mid 20s and late 20s. Based on even kilkenny and kerry dipped after great teams, all time greats retirements eg Cluxton, these current young kerry minors peaking and current Kildare Meath Wicklow Offlay underage teams improvement meaning possilbly a more competitive leinster championship in 7 or 8 years time. Thats all.
When you say this is cyclical people say your r mad.
I think Dublin have gone up a level. They were always in the top 4 or 5. Now they will remain in the top 1 or 2 or 3. We uesd to great Dublin teams every 40 or 50 years eg 20s 70s , this decade. Now I believe we will see more frequency of great Dublin teams similar kerry , every second decade. For example kerry had great team in 1950s, late 70s/early 80s and 00s. We should see great Dublin teams in 2030s 2050s 2070s. Something like that.
But what do I know, I cannot read the future. its just a massive guess.0 -
Powerhouse wrote: »Now that we have established that Dublin is in fact the centre of Ireland can we have an end to people whinging that it's easy for Dublin players to get to training but very difficult for players from other counties based in Dublin to do so. Clearly with the great transport access and Dublin's central location there should be no problem there.
It's easier for Dublin players to get to training than it is for Mayo and Kerry players based there to get to their home counties. It's easier for someone in Dublin to get to training there than it is for players based in remote parts of bigger rural counties to get to training in their county town. That's hardly controversial.0 -
The Talking Bread wrote: »What exactly is the "weight" aspect of "punching above their weight" in terms of inter county football/hurling.
For example, taking Kildare in the late 90s, very early noughties, (and putting aside my allegiance) their population is 7th highest out of the 32, hurling is a distant second to football (although it has grown in recent times), they don't have a League of Ireland team etc and are surrounded by teams like Dublin, Meath and Laois with similar attributes.
To say they punched above their weight in 97 - 2001 is ill informed given all these factors never mind the fact that squad was excellent and had one of the greatest managers over them.
We should have beaten you in 1997 (the 3 game classic) when you were current AI champions and that kickstarted it all. As well as winning Division 1 of the NFL.
So I think that is the standard we should have expected at the time tbh.
Talking Bread,
That last paragraph of mine was very clunky, and very badly phrased. I stand over all my other posts, and that post, but that paragraph is a mess. Written to late at night.
That kildare team of the late 90s was a brillant team. Glen Ryan is one of my favourite players of that era. That team was full of warriors and leaders . The second game Meath v kildare 97 for me and even Pat Spillane is one of the greatest games of last 40 years. And that 3 game saga was making of that kildare team .
Leinster was so competitive at the time, but if Meath team was not around, I could have seen that kildare team winning 4 or 5 leinsters in a row and reaching another All Ireland final at least. And if that kildare wasnt around that Meath team would have won every leinster from 96 to 01 and would have won All Ireland in 97 and reached 98 final v Galway. But I cannot prove that. It just my viewpoint.
That kildare team along with current Mayo team and Rossies team late 70s are the best teams to never win Sam. And that run in 98 beating 3 All Ireland champions was a great run, and if Dwyer took Sos Dowling of Donnellan and if kildare had a young Johnny Doyle, or Dan Flynn or Jimmy Hyland they wud have won Sam in 98. Kildare were probaly one class forward short of winning Sam in 98. A team full of warriors eg Ryan Dalton Rainbow McCreery Lynch Buckly Earley.
My points really are Meath could be the new Cavan. We had a very strong period, we could now be in permanent decline. And kildare while a strong football county, with great supporters, great tradition, a strong club structure, but taking out late 90s , kildare have struggled over the years to be at the very top of football table. So I kind of disagree that both counties should nesscessarily be there always at the top. Look at Wicklow, look at Antrim ( I know half pop dont support gaa), look at Dublin for so long up to this decade. Big population gurantees nothing.0 -
So I have praised this current Dublin team, great team , great players, incredible achievement. And I have written in support that the Dubs are being wrongly criticised for finances and the Dubs have been criticised in a way Kilkenny or kerry teams werent in the past. But being any sort of half decent Meath man, I need to throw a good solid elbow/dig towards the Dubs. I cannot help it, its in my DNA. I have no criticism of the team, it more ex players and what supporters are saying.
This is my criticism of the Dubs. Its not their team. Their team . The current team along with kerry is the greatest team ever to play. Win 5 in a row and next year and they will be undisputed the greatest team ever. Great team, great players, incredible achievement .
My issue is this mantra that Dublin supporters and ex players keep repeating about other counties.
The Dubs keep saying to other counties. Its your own fault, it your own fault, its your own fault the state in your in. They are right. But when Dublin didnt reach All Ireland final for 16 years the GAA Community did not say it was Dublins fault. The GAA community was very supportive of the Dubs and their plight. The GAA stood by the Dubs in mid 00s and we know what happened next. The Dubs are not responding in the same way to other counties predicament at the moment.
The Dubs have a tabloid simple response. Its an effective response, but its a bogus one. The reasons why county declines is multi layered and complicated.
The Dublin response is look at Mayo , look at Mayo, look at Mayo or look at Monaghan, look at Monaghan, look at Monaghan , look at Monaghan. Why cannot ur county follow their example?
This is a simple and bogus arguement. Its lacks a badic understanding how GAA works how sucess is achieved in GAA. Lets look at Mayo and Monaghan.
Leaving very good players and very good management can anyone give 5 practical things to other counties could do that Mayo and Monaghan have done to be sucessful? Why are counties not copying the Monaghan and Mayo model? What is unique to these counties. What are they doing that other counties are not?
Underage sucess well Galway have had as much underage sucess as Mayo and Cavan have had as much underage sucess as Monaghan . Why did Monaghan win a couple of Ulster titles while Cavan have won 1 in 50 years. Why have Mayo reached 11 All Ireland finals including replays in 25 years and Galway have reached 4 All Ireland finals including replays in the same period. The reasons are multi layered complicated.
There is nothing really different that Monaghan or Mayo doing. The reasons they have sucess are a driving force driving Mayo to all these finals and Monaghan just have great manager and players for the first time in 30 years.
Lets take Mayo. There is no county in Ireland that winning an All Ireland means so much. Every man woman child, every player , manager in Mayo is almost on yearly crusade , an obssesion to win Sam. So many times you hear a Mayo person saying, before I die I hope to see Mayo win Sam. This driving force to end the famine and break the curse is driving Mayo to finals. It is admirable. But no other county has these driving forces. If Mayo had won Sam in 2012 or 13. I believe they wouldnt have reached final in 16 or 17. This driving force has become a counties obsession.
Monaghan had a great team in 1930s , late 70s early 80s and this decade. Monaghan have a great team every 30 or 40 years. Most counties with small.population have a very good every 30 or 40 years. You cannot buy players. You have to wait for a golden generation to appear. Its just in Monaghans football cycle; they have a brillant team now. It is very possible Monaghan wouldnt have another great team for another 30 or 40 years.
Yes they had a good minor team this year. So maybe it can continue for a couple more years. But to expect Monaghan to be top 5 or 6 team in 2020s 2030s 2040s every decade on is not credible. More then likely Monaghan could decline for 20 or 30 years or more. This has happened with every county with small population who have had sucess. Every decade there is a county with asmall.population that has sucess. This is down allot of the time to that county producing a golden generation and its the part of their cycle to be sucessful.
Here are examples
Longford were the county with Small population who suceeded in the 60s. Longford won leinster title and national league division 1 title. At the end of 60s longford had one of the best teams in the country. Its only in this decade and in some of 00s we have seen Longford have sucess again.
In 70s and early 80s Offaly were the county with small population small resources who suceeded. Offaly won 3 All Irelands and 7 leinsters in this period. Offaly have declined and never recovered.
In 90s leitrim and Clare won provicial titles and reached All Ireland semi finals. Again counties with less resources. Both have declined with Clare having the best since 92 at the moment.
In 00s Fermanagh reached All Ireland semi final. A county with small resources and pop. In 00s Westmeath won their first and only leinster title. Another example
In this decade Monaghan won Ulster titles and reached semi final. Another example of a county with small population suceeding.
Its basically cyclical. Counties with smaller population and resources produce their best teams every 30 or 40 years. And every decade there is a smaller county that suceeds.
Thats what is happening in Monaghan. Excellent players, excellent manager. Everything has come together for Monaghan in this decade the same way it came together for smaller counties like longford in 60s , Offaly in 70s and 80s , leitrim and Clare in 90s and Fermanagh and Westmeath in 00s.
So that is what is happening in Mayo and Monaghan.0 -
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harpsman wrote:It’s a lot more interesting and intelligent than a lot of contributions I’ve seen. I know he gets repetitive but still if you’ve got the time getting a potted history of the gaa isn’t the worst thing you could do.
Thanks Harpsman your a gentleman.0
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