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Has Gaelic Football lost it's appeal?
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RTE Sport had some panel in to discuss the ills of football on radio this afternoon. Says I, this may be interesting. Not so.
There was no focus to it at all: it was trite, banal, self serving rubbish.. Expect no change, if that lot are anything to by anyway.0 -
I have no criticism of the team, it more ex players and what supporters are saying.
My issue is this mantra that Dublin supporters and ex players keep repeating about other counties.
The Dubs keep saying to other counties. Its your own fault, it your own fault, its your own fault the state in your in. They are right.
But when Dublin didnt reach All Ireland final for 16 years the GAA Community did not say it was Dublins fault. The GAA community was very supportive of the Dubs and their plight.
The GAA stood by the Dubs in mid 00s and we know what happened next. The Dubs are not responding in the same way to other counties predicament at the moment.
The Dubs have a tabloid simple response. Its an effective response, but its a bogus one. The reasons why county declines is multi layered and complicated.
The Dublin response is look at Mayo , look at Mayo, look at Mayo or look at Monaghan, look at Monaghan, look at Monaghan , look at Monaghan. Why cannot ur county follow their example?
This is a simple and bogus arguement. Its lacks a badic understanding how GAA works how sucess is achieved in GAA.
I'm not sure you can reconcile the contradictory views expressed here. You say Dublin say to other counties "Its your own fault, it your own fault, its your own fault the state in your in - they are right." But a few sentences later you say that it is a bogus argument.
Your view seems to be that counties of a particular profile just need to wait 30 or 40 years and a good team will come along - law of averages and all that. But what's the point in doing anything if you are not trying to change the profile of your county so that they are not one which has to rely on some generational quick where a good team emerges?
Dubliners are right. The solution to any county's underperformance is in the first instance a local one. People can tinker around with championship formats, wish the economic realities of the country was different, lament that the county system on which the GAA based its operations is fundamentally and necessarily "unfair" because the units involved are so different, but the first and only solution is for each county to look after its affairs properly.0 -
But when Dublin didnt reach All Ireland final for 16 years the GAA Community did not say it was Dublins fault. The GAA community was very supportive of the Dubs and their plight.
I'm not so sure about this. To the best of my recollection the GAA community (if we assume this to be supporters of other counties) had a good sneer each time Dublin lost. I doubt if anyone in Cork, Kerry, or Meath worried about Dublin's "plight". That's not really how the nature of competition works.0 -
Powerhouse wrote: »Your view seems to be that counties of a particular profile just need to wait 30 or 40 years and a good team will come along - law of averages and all that. But what's the point in doing anything if you are not trying to change the profile of your county so that they are not one which has to rely on some generational quick where a good team emerges?
How long are the likes of Wicklow or Carlow supposed to wait? Perpetual whipping boys in Leinster for the entire history of the GAA I think. Their record makes a mockery of the county game when you pitch their relative chances against a juggernaut like Dublin.0 -
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some counties just don't have the culture of winning things
they might have players good enough to compete, but have never had that drive for success0 -
How long are the likes of Wicklow or Carlow supposed to wait? Perpetual whipping boys in Leinster for the entire history of the GAA I think. Their record makes a mockery of the county game when you pitch their relative chances against a juggernaut like Dublin.
Who ever said either county would ever win anything? They have no entitlements because they have a bad previous record. Let’s not be delusional.....Dublin won just one Leinster title between 1995 and 2005 and Wicklow and Carlow still did not raise a gallop, so let’s not be implying that they are unfortunate victims of Dublin’s current altitude. In fact they are classic cases which illustrate the reality that any progress they make must be locally and internally driven and not based on the forlorn hope that Dublin can somehow be thwarted because an unsuccessful Dublin did not change their picture one bit.0 -
Powerhouse didnt give five practical things that Mayo and Monaghan are doing that other counties. Could copy?. Leaving aside great players great management what are Mayo and Monaghan doing, what is unique that they are doing practically to other counties?. Even 2 or 3 things practical things these counties are doing that other counties cud copy.
Secondly again what about the point yes Mayo have brillant players but the point of the driving force to end the famine break the curse that driving Mayo to all these finals? Any comments on that?
Again what about that Monaghan are an example of small county with golden generation similar to Longford in 60s Offaly 70s 80s Derry Leitrim in 90s and Westmeath in 00s. What are the chances after this Monaghan team break up, the county declines.
The bogus arguement I mean is when people say look at Monaghan , look at Mayo. And show a lack of understanding why both counties are being sucessful.
The point you say about where I say counties have to wait 30 or 40 year periods and ur response above; whats the point?
The point is every year the train leaves the station for every county. Every county must and wants to participate in the championship. They might be in the bottom two or three teams in the country, but in every county there always was and there always will be 15 players come the summer who will want to represent their county. They might not be at a good standard. But they are proud to wear the jersey and reprsent their county. Wicklow only won their first match ever in Croker in mid 00s. They have never won a leinster title. But every year Wicklow put out a senior team because there is players in their county who love playing and representing their county and supporters will go to games because they are supporters whatever happens on the field. Great GAA supporters.
The point is you cannot buy players like soccer. There is no transfer system. Every county has players coming thru every 10 years. What ever talent you have in the county you must work with. No county has won an All Ireland with population under 100000 in football since Offaly 1982. It is not possible for counties like Offaly Monaghan or Roscommon to keep producing top class teams every decade. Roscommon have had very good /brillant teams in early 40s early 60s late 70s late 90s now. Thats every twenty years. Of those teams two of them were All Ireland winners or contenders/ brillant teams eg early 40s, late 70s.
Monaghan have a had great teams in 30s , 1979 to 1985 and now. Thats every 40 years. In the 80s Monaghan had Nudie Hughes, MciAleney. The next best Monaghan team is in this decade with McManus and co. Offaly had a twenty year period of sucess eg 1960 to 1982. They had three teams in that period. The 60s team which reached finals and won leinster. The 70s team which won 2 in a row. And early 80s 1982 All Ireland winners. Offaly had golden generation of players eg Paddy McCormarck, Tony McTeague, Willie Bryan, Richie Connor, Liam Cummins, Brendan Lowry and of couse Matt Connor.
Offaly have not produced players of that quality since. Offaly havent played in All Ireland final since 82 and won 1 leinster since 82. So basically up to 1960 Offaly were div 3 or div 4 county. From 1960 to 82 Offaly were up there with Dublin and kerry , winning three All Irelands in 11 years. Since 82 with exception of 97 98, Offaly have gone back to been div 3 or div 4 county. Until another generation of talented players come thru again similar to 70s and 80s, Offaly will probaly struggle. Golden generations for rural counties dont grow on trees. They come every couple of generations.
Take forwards. You eitheir have the top class forwards are not. One of the reasons why Dublin have achieved so much is the Dubs have the best forwards in the country eg Brogan Connolly Flynn Kilkenny Mannion Callaghan Costello. In the past Dublin lacked quality forwards. Dublin won 1 final between 1984 and 2010. Dublin didnt reach a final from 1996 to 2010. One of the reasons was when Dublin played other counties, other counties better forwards. Meath had O Rourke Giles, Kerry had Fitzgerald Cooper, Tyrone had Cavanan O Neill , Armagh had McDonnell and McConville. Dublin had good forwads in 80s 90s and OOs. But other counties had better.
Take Meath , Meath went toe to toe with Dublin for 80 years. Meath had huge periods of sucess over Dublin. One of the reasons why was we always had better forwards then Dubs. In forties and 50s We had McDermont, Meegan and Bryne better then Dublin forwards . Dublin forwards were reliant on Heffernan. In 60s Meath had Kerrigan Curran Shanley better then Dublin forwards. Again in 70s I would say Meath had just as many natural forwards with Kerrigan O Rourke and Rennicks. The Dubs had Keavey and O Toole. In 80s Dublin had Rock Duff McNally all very good forwards , but O Rourke Stafford and Flynn were a different level of class. In 90s Dublin had Farrell Redmond Sherlock again very good forwards, but Giles Geraghty Dowd Ollie Murphy Brendan Reilly Evan kelly were a different level of class. Even in most of 00s we had better forwards with Dublin had two brogans Connell but Meath had Geraghty Sheridan Farrell Ward Stephen Bray David Bray Reilly Bryne O Rourke.
Its in this decade were Dublin have much superior forwards to Meath. Dublin have Brogan Kilkenny Mannion Callaghan Flynn Connolly
Meath have had Bray Reilly Wallaces Lenihan Newman. Dublin have the best forwards in the country. Meath havent produced a top class forward since Stephen Bray, our last all star.
My point is Meath have those forwards currently, thats the forwards we must work. You must work with whatever talent is in the county. If you dont have the forwards, marque forwards natural forwards, top class forwards whatever title u want to put on it. Thats it.
Look at Tyrone they just didnt have forwards last week like they had in 00s. look at Mayo who lost 9 finals. How many great forwards really top top class forwards have they had in the last 25 years. They have had excellent managers, excellent defenders excellent midfielders excellent hard working half forwards but they have lacked top top top class forwards. Cillian Connor is very good. But for me the only truly top class forward Mayo have had in last 30 years was Ciaran McDonald. Kerry have had Maurice Fitzgerald Colm Cooper Declan Sullivan and other quality forwards like Cinneade Frank Russell Galvin Donaghy Geaney Donoghue Crowley in the same period.
Kerry have won 7 All Irelands in last 30 years. Mayo have lost 9 finals in last 30 years. The top class forwards Kerry have had is one of the major reasons. You eitheir have natural top class forwards in a county. Or u dont. You cannot really manufacture a Matt Conner Colm Cooper Peter Cavanan or Con Callaghan. You have to wait for a golden generation. You have to keep plugging away of course but every team that has won an All Ireland in last 50 years had at leaat two top class forwards
eg
1975 -86 Kerry Sheedy Spillane
74 - 77 Dublin Keavey O Toole
82 Offaly Matt Connor Brendan lowry
87 88 O Rourke Stafford
89 80 Cork Tompkins Barry
91 94 Down linden Blaney
92 Donegal McHugh Boyle
93 Derry McNicholl Downey/Brolly
95 Dublin Farrell Redmond
96 Meath Giles Dowd
97 Kerry Fitzgerald Cinneade
98 Galway Joyce Donnellan
99 Meath Geraghty O Murphy
00 Kerry Crowley Frank Russell
01 Galway Fallon Joyce
02 Armagh McConville McDonnell
03 05 08 Tyrone Cavanan McGuigan
04 06 07 09 kerry Cooper Donaghy
11 13 15 16 17 18 Dublin Brogan Connolly kilkenny Flynn
12 Donegal Murphy McFadden
14 Kerry Donoghue Geaney Declan Sullivan
If any of the above counties didnt have those quality forwards they wouldn't have won any of those All Irelands.
Of couse counties need to look after their affairs. They need to build bottom up. Your last paragraph is correct in that sense. A county has to look after it own affairs properly. And county like Meath have ignored underage for years.Its only now we are improving. But if you dont have the talent coming through. Theres only so much you can achieve. And for a smaller county its even harder. In the last 50 years no county with population under 100000 have performed consistently at the top of the football table . They try every decade but I have heard it from many supporters from many smaller counties , they say we have to wait for a generation of top class players to come through , that usually comes every generation or two for most counties.0 -
Powerhouse wrote:I'm not so sure about this. To the best of my recollection the GAA community (if we assume this to be supporters of other counties) had a good sneer each time Dublin lost. I doubt if anyone in Cork, Kerry, or Meath worried about Dublin's "plight". That's not really how the nature of competition works.
Of course other counties were not crying and distraught when Dublin were beaten. But in mid 00s. O Rourke or Spillane would say in tv and papers we need a strong Dublin. The idea that GAA needs a strong Dublin with leinster rugby growing and soccer was accepted by many in GAA. We need GAA strong in the capital was the idea. Yes counties wherent marching on the streets for the Dubs and yes of course other counties would have sneered at Dub loses. The same way the Dubs will have a good sneer at former strong counties in decline. But there was a feeling in mid 00s we need a strong Dublin. The GAA community were supportive and encouraging. I do not remember many people say its your fault at the time. People realised in many areas in Dublin GAA was not popular on the ground and this needed to change. There was issues , problems on the ground and people listened to the Dubs plight. The reaction of Dubs to counties in decline is less supportive and less emphatic. Its more its ur own fault. Stop whinging and get on with it.0 -
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Allot of people believe Dublin are going to dominate the next 20, 30 years of football. With 7 or 8 or 9 All-Irelands every decade. Maybe they will. I cannot read the future. But anytime there has been a period of unprecedented domination by 1 county in hurling or footbalk, the following period is a very competitive period. let me explain.
In 1920s and 1930s you had a three in row Dublin team and four in a row kerry team.
The following decades of 40s and 50s you had the most competitive era along with the 90s. In 40s and 50s Roscommon Mayo Galway Cavan Meath louth Kerry Dublin won Sam and Meath louth Dubin kildare laois Carlow Wexford won Leinster.
In the 70s and early 80s you had Dublin winning 4 All Irelands, Offaly winning 3 and of course kerry won 8. Between 1974 and 1986 in 11 of those 12 years kerry or Dublin won Sam. In those 12 years kerry played Dublin in 5 finals. Kerry and Dublin, but particularly kerry had unprecedented domination of football.
Yet in the following decade in 90s was the most competitive ever. Between 1974 and 1986 3 teams won Sam in 12 years. In 8 years in 90s, 8 different teams won Sam. So after a period of uncompetitiveness we had a period of very competitiveness.
Take hurling, in 00s kilkenny dominated hurling like no other team ever. kilkenny won 7 All Irelands in the decade. This sucess continued into this decade. But this decade has been much more competitive overall. In 00s the three traditional counties won all the All Irelands eg kilkeeny 7 , Cork 2 and Tipp 1. In this decade we have seen Clare Galway and limerick win liam.
In summary in 2009 you had two All Ireland contenders but really only one and that was kilkenny.
In 2019 ten years later you will have 7 All Ireland contenders eg Limerick Galway Clare Waterford Cork Tippearey Kilkenny. Any of those 7 could win liam Mcarthy . We have gone from 1 team winning All Ireland to 7 teams as being contenders in 10 years.
Take 1984 85 86. There was only two real contenders in football , but actually only really one that was kerry.
Ten years later in 94 95 96 97 there was 13 All Ireland contenders eg Down Derry Donegal Tyrone Mayo Galway Cork kerry Dublin Meath kildare Offaly and soon Armagh. That is some turnaround. What happened.
I know many reasons. Great manager great teams arrive on the scene. And i know this is a simplified way of looking things. But what happened is kerry upped the standards of football in 70s and 80s other counties followed their example. Kilkenny up the standards went up a level in hurling in 00s. Other counties upped their game to reach kilkenny standards in this decade. So could it be when a county has unprecedented sucess and raises the game to a new level, does this lead lead to other counties to do the same also.
Look at this way. Its very simplified way of looking at things, but GAA can be simple old world at times. Kerry and Dublin went up a level in 70s and 80s. In 70s and 80s kerry had their greatest team ever. It is no coincidence in the late 80s early 90s Cork had their greatest team ever . kerry had raised their game and moved on to another level . In response after years of beatings Cork upped their game.
In 70s up to that period Dublin had their greatest team. It was no coincidence in next decade Meath produced their greatest team. After years of beatings Meath went up a level to beat the Dubs.
Its like if that shower across the border can do it, then we can. Dont underestimate good old local GAA rivalry.
In early 90s kildare upped their game and went up a level under Micko. If those Meath feckers can do it so can we , they thought. Then Down upped their game and then Donegal also. Ulster teams started to bringing fitness to a new level . After Donegal won the neighbours Derry , its like well again that crowd across the border can do it , so can we.
Then Mayo started to up their game. And reached two finals. And what happened next but the neighbours Galway also upped their game. What are the chances after seen Mayo reaching two finals in mid 90s. It gave the Galway lads inspiration but also motivation to win Sam. If Mayo can get to the final so can we. Then Armagh won Sam. And who beat them in the final the year after , but their closest rivals Tyrone. It again was like if Armagh can do it we can. So basically after kerry and Dublin brought the game to a new level counties responsed positively. Meath and Cork upped their game then Ulster teams upped their and then Connacht teams all in the 90s and early 00s.
Take hurling. Kilkenny brought hurling to another level in the 00s. Who responded who knocked them from their pirch but the local rivals Tipp. If that kilkenny shower can do it we can do it here in Tipp, also was the mentality. Tipp went up a level. Not only Tipp but Clare Galway and this year limerick went up a level.
So in summary when you have a team that has unprecedented sucess and brings the games to a new level eg kerry 75 to 86, Kilkenny 00s. In the aftermath counties try and catch up and other counties go up a level to meet the level that kerry and kilkenny went up to. Is it possible the same thing will happen this great Dublin break up. Could we see a very competitive 2020s and 2030s. I dont know. I cannot read the future. But my gut feeling is in the mid and late 2020s and into early 2030s we will see a more competitive championship. History does repeat itself. I dont know. Time will tell.
But we are already seen counties upping their game in response to Dublin. kerry have upped their game by winning 5 minors. That of course is down to great work done at underage and great talent. But it also is direct response to Dublin dominating at senior. kildare have upped their game at minor level and under 20 eg winning 3 minors in 6 years and under 20 All-Ireland . This is a golden age for kildare underage. Again great work done on the ground and talent but it is also a direct response to Dublin sucess at senior and underage. Dublin have raised their standards over last 10 years. kildare are trying to follow. Meath are also upping their game with 2 minor leinster in row ( u17) and beating Dublin 4 times in 4 years at minor. Again Meath have never really been strong at undeage exception 90s. But Meath also have had to up their game to reach Dublin standards. Counties like Galway are really upping their game at underage. And counties like Offaly and Wicklow have upped their game at underage with Wicklow minors beating Dublin also.
So maybe just maybe we wouldnt see Dublin winning the next 20 All Irelands. Any time before we had a county dominating, it did have a knock on effect of raising other counties standard to meet the dominate county at the times level. I suspose we just all have to wait and see. And admire this great Dublin team at the moment. Who knows what will happen in ten years time.0 -
in those previous decades successful counties weren't getting huge sums of money centrally from the GAA in order to run their underage and games development and to improve standards across the whole county.
how many full time coaches do Dublin have?
and full time staff in their games development office?
they even have a full time primary schools coordinator.0 -
robbiezero wrote: »
The very reason I haven't gone to a football match in years. Absolutely pathetic.0 -
Things have changed a lot, maybe it's me, maybe I'm getting old but being from Westmeath to get to a Leinster Final would have been a huge occasion but we did it twice in a row 2015 and 2016, I went to the first one I could barely watch the second one on television. I think we are the last team to beat Dublin in Leinster outside of Meath in 2004. It's not a level playing field especially in Leinster. Some may bemoan people like me banging on about population and financial advantages that Dublin have but at the end of the day we just won't watch it and move on to other things.
I cannot remember an All-Ireland final that I or anyone I spoke to had as little interest in.0 -
Dublin are a great team no doubt about it . But as much as it will get boring if they keep winning I also think another factor is the way the game is being played . I think amount of back passes hand passes etc allowed in a row will have to be limited . It’s called football for a reason . That’s Probaly what makes the hurling so excitement the sliothar is at either end of the pitch so quick . Now I know it’s impossible to do that with football but the amount of goal chances etc need to increase . Nobody is gonna keep paying money to see ball been passed around for mins by defenders0
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No it has not. I am both a fan of hurling and football. Hurling as a spectacle is excellent to watch, great skills on view, but tactically way behind football. Driving the ball from one end of a field to the other and a forward winning possession and scoring is a great spectacle but it is not tactically great, 50/50 chance of winning ball in a lot of cases. Football is all about possession, yes it can be boring to watch sometimes but from a tactical perspective it is ahead of hurling. This is just my view point as I have stated, I am a fan of both codes for different reasons.0
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. Hurling as a spectacle is excellent to watch, great skills on view,
Football is all about possession, yes it can be boring to watch
at the end of it all, it comes down to the above. And thats all there is really. Football may be tactical, but that doesnt make it better to watch. There is only so long you can watch a team go round and round in circles doing nothing before it gets tedious.0 -
Powerhouse wrote: »Who ever said either county would ever win anything? They have no entitlements because they have a bad previous record.
Of course, counties like Wicklow or Carlow are not entitled to any titles. But the point is that the county game is supposedly highly valued by the GAA. That neither county has a senior AI title in either code in the entire history of said GAA, says a lot. And also that insofar as can be seen, neither will in the next 100+ years. What value or use is there in that for the players or followers in these counties?0 -
No it has not. I am both a fan of hurling and football. Hurling as a spectacle is excellent to watch, great skills on view, but tactically way behind football. Driving the ball from one end of a field to the other and a forward winning possessionand scoring is a great spectacle but it is not tactically great, 50/50 chance of winning ball in a lot of cases. Football is all about possession, yes it can be boring to watch sometimes but from a tactical perspective it is ahead of hurling. This is just my view point as I have stated, I am a fan of both codes for different reasons.
When was the last time you watched a hurling match. Modern hurling is now very much about possession and working out from the back. The best teams no longer risk or rely on the 50/50 game.0 -
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As I said, I watch a lot of both and my observations are that football is more tactical, it's an observation, it's not a slight on either sport. I love watching both for different reasons.Dannyriver wrote: »No it has not. I am both a fan of hurling and football. Hurling as a spectacle is excellent to watch, great skills on view, but tactically way behind football. Driving the ball from one end of a field to the other and a forward winning possessionand scoring is a great spectacle but it is not tactically great, 50/50 chance of winning ball in a lot of cases. Football is all about possession, yes it can be boring to watch sometimes but from a tactical perspective it is ahead of hurling. This is just my view point as I have stated, I am a fan of both codes for different reasons.
When was the last time you watched a hurling match. Modern hurling is now very much about possession and working out from the back. The best teams no longer risk or rely on the 50/50 game.0 -
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So its now gone from "Has Gaelic Football lost its appeal" to Dublin funding, number of coaches etc!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!0
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So its now gone from "Has Gaelic Football lost its appeal" to Dublin funding, number of coaches etc!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Sure that is the reason behind most of the threads around here - Get Dublin.
https://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/comment-dublin-shouldnt-concern-themselves-with-the-joyless-dismal-illinformed-criticism-aimed-at-them-37300336.html
Liked this article about it.0 -
Dannyriver wrote: »When was the last time you watched a hurling match. Modern hurling is now very much about possession and working out from the back. The best teams no longer risk or rely on the 50/50 game.
Modern hurling is closer to ping-pong and tennis than old-style hurling. With points been scored from 80 yards, it is all excitement and little substance.0 -
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As I said, I watch a lot of both and my observations are that football is more tactical, it's an observation, it's not a slight on either sport. I love watching both for different reasons.
I understand that but I'm making the point that you are wrong , possession is paramount in the modern hurling game and working the ball up the field from the back has replaced the long ball system that you maligned in your original post.0 -
Things have changed a lot, maybe it's me, maybe I'm getting old but being from Westmeath to get to a Leinster Final would have been a huge occasion but we did it twice in a row 2015 and 2016, I went to the first one I could barely watch the second one on television. I think we are the last team to beat Dublin in Leinster outside of Meath in 2004. It's not a level playing field especially in Leinster. Some may bemoan people like me banging on about population and financial advantages that Dublin have but at the end of the day we just won't watch it and move on to other things.
I cannot remember an All-Ireland final that I or anyone I spoke to had as little interest in.
The irony of this is that the only time Westmeath ever managed to reach successive Leinster finals is during this era. Westmeath's lack of success is a bot more complex than the population and financial advantages of Dublin. How many years was it since they beat Meath until recent years? Or had they ever done so? I think people are entitled to bemoan an attribution of your county's lack of success to Dublin's population and financial advantage. It's not like Westmeath were competing with them successfully up to recent years.0 -
I think you may be talking about the elite teams here, I am talking about from club hurling as well. You are obviously a hurling person, don't take it as me being critical of the way the sport is played. It is an observation of both county and club hurling. SO you're point in me being wrong is wrong itself.Dannyriver wrote: »As I said, I watch a lot of both and my observations are that football is more tactical, it's an observation, it's not a slight on either sport. I love watching both for different reasons.
I understand that but I'm making the point that you are wrong , possession is paramount in the modern hurling game and working the ball up the field from the back has replaced the long ball system that you maligned in your original post.0 -
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I think you may be talking about the elite teams here, I am talking about from club hurling as well. You are obviously a hurling person, don't take it as me being critical of the way the sport is played. It is an observation of both county and club hurling. SO you're point in me being wrong is wrong itself.
ya club football is more tactical than club hurling. you certainly wouldn't see the likes or the above video clip in club hurling thankfully.0
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