Armstrong Cup 2018-19

zeitnot

Kilmokey wrote: »

I was just pointing out that there is nothing in the rules to preclude you from playing your last round games /match or any other round for that matter in advance.

There's nothing in the rules to preclude you from *asking your opponents whether they agree with* playing your last round games /match or any other round for that matter in advance. Not quite the same thing!

Retd.LoyolaCpt

Retd.LoyolaCpt wrote: »

Gonzaga A 7.5-0.5 Dun Laoghaire
Gonzaga B 5.5-1.5 Blanchardstown (1 game to be played during the week)

Gonzaga B 6.5-1.5 Blanchardstown

sodacat11

Dun Laoghaire 4-3 Rathmines but we were a pawn up and looked like winning the last game so maybe 4-4. Not a good result for either team. In a "must win" situation for both teams I was very surprised to see early draw offers in some games and even more amazed that they were accepted.

sodacat11

D.L 4 v Rathmines 4 confirmed.

Tim Harding

League Final Day Changed
26-Feb-2019
Due to venue availability, the final day of the leagues has been moved to Sunday the 19th of May. Matches are allowed to be played in advance of this date by agreement of team captains.

I just notice this was posted on the LCU website a couple of days ago.
From bad to worse...

DmanDmythDledge

I assume that applies to all divisions? What is the venue?

Also that notice only shows up on the Chess League link - doesn't show up on the leinsterchess link.

Anyway, regarding playing matches in advance, I think only games that don't affect winning a division and promotion/relegation should be allowed to be played in advance of the date.

Past_Pawn_99

Clashing with ennis congress too. Wonderful.

mikhail

DmanDmythDledge wrote: »

Anyway, regarding playing matches in advance, I think only games that don't affect winning a division and promotion/relegation should be allowed to be played in advance of the date.

I have to agree. The last round games are all played together for good reason.

sodacat11

mikhail wrote: »

I have to agree. The last round games are all played together for good reason.

Then they should be properly organised in a decent venue (ALSAA is a kip) and at an appropriate date, not two months after the penultimate game and not clashing with the Ennis Congress. Rathmines play Benildus in the last round, I see nothing wrong with playing the entire match in advance even if it does let our rivals see what they would need to avoid relegation. Post a score and be damned I say!!
:P

Tim Harding

Four matches this afternoon, all significant for either the runners-up spots or relegation, or both:

Gonzaga A v St Benildus
Kilkenny v Elm Mount
Dublin v Balbriggan
Bray/Greystones v Gonzaga B.

Trinity play Blanchardstown on Monday to complete round 9.

sodacat11

Tim Harding wrote: »

Four matches this afternoon, all significant for either the runners-up spots or relegation, or both:

Gonzaga A v St Benildus
Kilkenny v Elm Mount
Dublin v Balbriggan
Bray/Greystones v Gonzaga B.

Trinity play Blanchardstown on Monday to complete round 9.

Fingers crossed for big wins for Kilkenny, Balbriggan and Gonzaga "B"
The other game is a formality.

Rathminor

Interesting to see Colm back playing for Bray today! It’s a real scramble at the bottom by all teams to avoid the drop.

cdeb

sodacat11 wrote: »

The other game is a formality.

Maybe not quite. 3.5-3.5 with one to go

sodacat11

cdeb wrote: »

Maybe not quite. 3.5-3.5 with one to go

What I meant was that it will have no bearing on who wins the league, that was decided before a pawn was even moved back in September.
The relegation battle is exciting though, I wonder how Dublin v Balbriggan is going?

Rathminor

Bray 2.5 Gonzaga B 5.5
Very important points for Bray at the bottom of the league

sodacat11

Hmmm even with Bray fielding a very strong team they still lost 5.2-2.2. Gonzaza "B" imported Pein Jnr for the match.

Rathminor

Bray 2.5 Gonzaga B 5.5
Very important points for Bray at the bottom of the league

Rathminor

Dublin 5 Balbriggan 3
Even tighter now at the bottom;
Over to Elm Mount now!

macelligott

R9: Kilkenny 3.5 - 4.5 Elm Mount

cdeb

So really barring an 8-0 win against Balbriggan, Dún Laoghaire are gone. Their Heidenfeld team lost today, so it looks like they won't replace themselves either. They should be huge favourites for the Heidenfeld though, like when they last went down.

Other than that, it's still unclear. Current standings are -

Bray 9-32.5 - to play Trinity and Elm Mount
Elm Mount 9- 32.5 - Blanch and Bray
Balbriggan 9-32 - Dún Laoghaire and Gonzaga A
Rathmines 9-31 - Gonzaga A and St Benildus
Dublin 9-30 - Gonzaga B and Trinity
Blanch 8-29.5 - Trinity, Elm Mount and Kilkenny

And one of those to go down. Rathmines have the hardest run-in, but Dublin's isn't easy either and they're effectively 1.5 points behind. Balbriggan need a decent result against Dún Laoghaire though cos they'll get very little off Gonzaga A on the last day.

Rathminor

macelligott wrote: »

R9: Kilkenny 3.5 - 4.5 Elm Mount

Really impressive result for Elm Mount when they really needed it!

sodacat11

cdeb wrote: »

So really barring an 8-0 win against Balbriggan, Dún Laoghaire are gone. Their Heidenfeld team lost today, so it looks like they won't replace themselves either. They should be huge favourites for the Heidenfeld though, like when they last went down.

Other than that, it's still unclear. Current standings are -

Bray 9-32.5 - to play Trinity and Elm Mount
Elm Mount 9- 32.5 - Blanch and Bray
Balbriggan 9-32 - Dún Laoghaire and Gonzaga A
Rathmines 9-31 - Gonzaga A and St Benildus
Dublin 9-30 - Gonzaga B and Trinity
Blanch 8-29.5 - Trinity, Elm Mount and Kilkenny

And one of those to go down. Rathmines have the hardest run-in, but Dublin's isn't easy either and they're effectively 1.5 points behind. Balbriggan need a decent result against Dún Laoghaire though cos they'll get very little off Gonzaga A on the last day.

Dun Laoghaire won't be favourites for the Heidenfeld, whoever goes down with them will be. I wouldn't be surprised if there is a strong Gonzaga "C" and "D" knocking about somewhere too.

cdeb

Gonzaga's third team is only in the O'Hanlon yet. Ennis next year

Probably right with eleventh being favourites alright. Though I think DL are stronger than anyone currently in the division

sodacat11

I don't like this business of clubs drafting in players for matches at the end of the league when they haven't played for them all season. Pein for Gonzaga "B" today, Stell Antoni last season for Gonzaga "A" etc etc,,,,,,Bray had Daly today but he has been a regular for them in the past so that is excusable. I wonder if Dublin or Elm Mount had any "ringers" today??

Rathminor

cdeb wrote: »

Gonzaga's third team is only in the O'Hanlon yet. Ennis next year

Probably right with eleventh being favourites alright. Though I think DL are stronger than anyone currently in the division

With such a strong “C” team to chose from, did they need to bring in Jonathan Pein on their B squad this round?

cdeb

Is that a question to me or in general?

My feelings on stuff like that are well known after our game v Curragh last year

Tim Harding

cdeb wrote: »

Maybe not quite. 3.5-3.5 with one to go

Last result in Gonzaga A v St Benildus?

cdeb

To be played on Wednesday I think.

(Wasn't played today anyway)

Tim Harding

cdeb wrote: »

To be played on Wednesday I think.

(Wasn't played today anyway)

So with Blanch & Trinity on 1.5-1.5, to be completed Monday, the true position is:

Gonzaga A 52.5 (1 to play)
Gonzaga B 44.5
St. Benildus 39.5 (1)
Kilkenny 39
Trinity 37 (5)
Bray & Elm Mount 32.5
Balbriggan 32
Blanchardstown 31 (5)
Rathmines 31
Dublin 30
Dun Laoghaire 20.5

undisputed

sodacat11 wrote: »

I don't like this business of clubs drafting in players for matches at the end of the league when they haven't played for them all season. Pein for Gonzaga "B" today, Stell Antoni last season for Gonzaga "A" etc etc,,,,,,Bray had Daly today but he has been a regular for them in the past so that is excusable. I wonder if Dublin or Elm Mount had any "ringers" today??

It was a regular Elm Mount team with David on board 1

Past_Pawn_99

Blanch 3-5 TCD

Tim Harding

Past_Pawn_99 wrote: »

Blanch 3-5 TCD

So Blanch draw level with Bray and Elm Mount. Trinity creep back into third but Benildus can share that position if Kevin McHugh (who has White) beats Carl Jackson.

Third spot is going to be very tight, but Benildus have to play Kilkenny so unless that is a one-sided match, Trinity might yet squeeze into it. We have to play two more teams who are not yet safe so nothing can be taken for granted.

sodacat11

Tim Harding wrote: »

So Blanch draw level with Bray and Elm Mount. Trinity creep back into third but Benildus can share that position if Kevin McHugh (who has White) beats Carl Jackson.

Third spot is going to be very tight, but Benildus have to play Kilkenny so unless that is a one-sided match, Trinity might yet squeeze into it. We have to play two more teams who are not yet safe so nothing can be taken for granted.

Well we aren't going to know for a long time yet with some teams playing on March 9th and others not in action until the weekend of the 23rd-25th which clashes with the Galway Congress. Then of course we have to wait nearly two months until the final round.
Is it even possible to arrange the fixtures any worse????
There should be some changes for next season, The same sequence in which clubs have been playing each other for years should be changed, the league should finish in March and teams should not be allowed to field any "new" players for the last three rounds.

Tim Harding

sodacat11 wrote: »

Well we aren't going to know for a long time yet with some teams playing on March 9th and others not in action until the weekend of the 23rd-25th which clashes with the Galway Congress. Then of course we have to wait nearly two months until the final round.
Is it even possible to arrange the fixtures any worse????
There should be some changes for next season, The same sequence in which clubs have been playing each other for years should be changed, the league should finish in March and teams should not be allowed to field any "new" players for the last three rounds.

"I second that emotion."

ishidaogo

Why has the LCU rule requiring 6 rounds of the league be played before Christmas been disregarded for some years now?

Tim Harding

ishidaogo wrote: »

Why has the LCU rule requiring 6 rounds of the league be played before Christmas been disregarded for some years now?

No idea; I have been calling for this for ages but didn't know it was actually a rule. Actually I think it must have been abolished but this season's timetable is in breach of a rule shown at http://www.leinsterchess.com/LCU_League_Rules.pdf

2.4 Fixtures shall be arranged so that the entire league programme is completed by the end of April ...

I think a lot of things go by default because the LCU agm is held mid-summer when a lot of people are away or thinking of matters other than chess, and because only club delegates can attend and vote? I wonder if Trinity has sent anyone along for years?

Is there provision in the LCU Constitution for an egm to be called where all these issues can be aired and which any ICU member in Leinster can attend?

Of course it would be desirable first to have a volunteer to offer to take over the role of League controller.
I am not volunteering but am willing to propose sodacat for this...

mikhail

Tim Harding wrote: »

Is there provision in the LCU Constitution for an egm to be called where all these issues can be aired and which any ICU member in Leinster can attend?

The LCU is a union of clubs, not players.

This clearly means a lot to you, so I imagine you will attend as one of Dublin University's delegates.

I expect my club would seriously consider seconding and/or voting for a motion to ban new players in the last three rounds. Will Rathmines or Dublin University be proposing it?

It should also be straightforward to get answers on the scheduling issues the leagues controller is facing, so the meeting can propose solutions.

sodacat11

mikhail wrote: »

The LCU is a union of clubs, not players.

This clearly means a lot to you, so I imagine you will attend as one of Dublin University's delegates.

I expect my club would seriously consider seconding and/or voting for a motion to ban new players in the last three rounds. Will Rathmines or Dublin University be proposing it?

It should also be straightforward to get answers on the scheduling issues the leagues controller is facing, so the meeting can propose solutions.

Do you think that your club would also be in favour of having the league finish by March and the changing of the sequence of fixtures?
From others I've spoken to there seems to be support for these measures.

sodacat11

Tim Harding wrote: »

Is there provision in the LCU Constitution for an egm to be called where all these issues can be aired and which any ICU member in Leinster can attend?

Of course it would be desirable first to have a volunteer to offer to take over the role of League controller.
I am not volunteering but am willing to propose sodacat for this...

Presumably the league controller would have to sit on the committee of the LCU?
After previous experiences as ICU P.R.O and Snooker Organiser in a golf club I have developed a severe allergy to anything to do with for committees.

mikhail

sodacat11 wrote: »

Do you think that your club would also be in favour of having the league finish by March and the changing of the sequence of fixtures?
From others I've spoken to there seems to be support for these measures.

Changing the sequence of fixtures seems like one you'd get passed without trouble. The only complication would be if the leagues controller said something like the software that makes the fixtures is too inflexible, which might make it awkward. Worth dropping him a line to see if there's any impediment.

Finishing by March is probably more complex. It's worth a motion, but expect a discussion at the AGM about what's currently making it hard to finish earlier. Anticipating those problems and adding a concrete proposal or two that removes some of the problems would be more effective. E.g. if it's all down to the glut of Saturday games clashing with tournaments, you could propose some measure to discourage Saturday games in city clubs. Or pushing the proposals discussed in another thread to play two rounds of a Saturday, compacting the season. Or relaxing what competitions are considered to clash. Probably lots of other options that don't occur to me right this second too (some easier to pass than others). Point is that if you can anticipate why the problem arises, proposing a solution will work far more smoothly than proposing to fix the problem. (If you just let them talk about how to do it in an open-ended way, the AGM may well do something you don't want, or nothing at all.) Again, a chat with the current leagues controller would help frame the problem.

EnPassant

There was a rule passed at an LCU AGM a few years ago to the effect that where a club had teams in different divisions, a team should not have a fixture on the same date as the club's next highest team in a lower division (to allow for the strongest possible substitutes to be available).

This means that a provincial club with an Armstrong team and a second team in a lower division would normally have the teams play on alternate weekends.

I think the rule was never implemented for all rounds because the season was never long enough to apply all the rules correctly. To implement the rule correctly, there would need to be 20 Saturdays available in a season, and to have 6 Armstrong rounds before Christmas would probably require 11 Saturdays available before the Christmas break.

sodacat11

EnPassant wrote: »

There was a rule passed at an LCU AGM a few years ago to the effect that where a club had teams in different divisions, a team should not have a fixture on the same date as the club's next highest team in a lower division (to allow for the strongest possible substitutes to be available).
.

Is it that important that the strongest possible subs are available? Clubs should have adequate squads and the players in those squads should do their best to be available. I notice an apparent reluctance with some players to travel long distances or to bother turning up for games against much weaker opposition.

Kilmokey

As EnPassant has said about 11 weeks before Christmas he would also have to add in all the weekend competitions as well So we have to add in the City of Dublin, Irish Rapid and Blitz, St Andrews, Cork Congress Limerick Open Irish Womens Championship and Kilkenny.

So with the City of Dublin down for the 6th Sept and 18 weekend required 6 for the remaining competitions and 12 for the two week cycle that means that the last weekend to finish before Christmas is around the 20th January and with 5 rounds its the 6 January. Also more clubs should be laying on a Saturday to help people get home after a game. For instance how do you get home from Celbridge if you don't drive or say Skerries and Bray if they have a mid week game as they do in the lower leagues. The rules have to cover all divisions and not just the Armstrong. I have heard that the League controller is stepping down so there will be ample opportunity for Tim and Sodacats to step up and get the square peg to fit the round hole. As when one problem is fixed another can be created.

sodacat11

Well, for a start I don't think that rapid or blitz should impact on the running of real chess tournaments. Rapid and blitz tournaments are usually held on Sundays anyway. As for the Irish Women's Ch, could not the few females that play in our league rearrange their games if there is a clash? (Anyone thinking that I am being sexist (I'm not) or un PC may send their complaints directly to the Human Rights Organisation or whoever deals with such matters). Also, I don't see why we couldn't squeeze two rounds of matches into December without clashing with anything.

Another idea might be to have a controller for each division of the league instead of plonking the whole workload onto one person.

ChessPlayer123

How about we just leave the Armstrong alone? Could people stop crying over minor inconveniences and just be happy we have a strong, fun league.

cdeb

Benildus 4.5-3.5 Gonzaga


Gonzaga's first league defeat in 4.5 years

Tim Harding

The League rules only say to avoid timetable clashes with LCU events not Limerick, Galway, Cork, Ennis etc.

IMPORTANT: what is going on about the Gonzaga B v Bray match?
http://www.chessleague.net/chessorg/leinster/table.php?org=1&lid=101

Both teams have been deducted their scores in the Reg column - why?

I can see how Gonzaga B could be in trouble. They have played Vicas below Carroll three times, possibly in breach of the 150 rule. Maybe relying on some provisional ICU rating for Vicas but FIDE he is now 2216. Or maybe a problem about Jonathan Pein?

But what have Bray done wrong?

Gonzaga B should have been strong enough to come in second in the Armstrong on their own resources without bringing in strangers.
When a strong player like Vicas comes to Dublin for a while they should let one of the other clubs have him to even out the competition, not exaggerate the gap.

So this goes back to what I've said before about them being greedy. If it ends up costing them second spot, it serves them right.

sodacat11

cdeb wrote: »

Benildus 4.5-3.5 Gonzaga


Gonzaga's first league defeat in 4.5 years

And as per usual Rathmines have to play these two in the final two rounds. No doubt Gonzaga will recruit Aagard, Maze, and others just to be sure to be sure.:(

cdeb

Tim - Reg is unregistered players

ishidaogo

BB 4 DL 3