The petty tyranny of bureaucrats

Mashiara

So I just arrived in Ireland at the end of last month (to start my undergraduate studies) and all's been pretty grand until today.
I go to my appointment to get a Public Services Card (having already received a PPS number before I arrived here in order to apply for a grant), I get there early, I greet the lady at the desk, all is good... until I give her my national ID.

Her attitude changes completely. My rental contract (the same contract that my boyfriend -of another nationality- used to register just a few days beforehand) is not good apparently(it was sent in electronic format by an estate agent so all is legal) as it was not signed by all parties in original (estate agent says according to the electronic commerce act 2000 they would be forced to accept it since it's a legal document) but okay, whatever, I understand she wants it signed the old fashioned way. I show her a letter from my university stating where I live (signed and sent electronically), she says she can't accept it even if i print it because she needs a signature in original.

She also asks how come I got a PPS number before coming to Ireland. I try and explain that according to the eligibility criteria for that particular grant I was eligible to apply for it and so I got in contact with the right department and they were kind enough to send the PPS number to me in advance. She says "oh so you just took a look at the criteria and decided you are eligible so you just asked for a PPS number?!".

I don't know, man. The whole exchange felt very hostile to me once she knew where I was from (an EU country by the way). I don't know if it was discrimination or she really had a **** day, but I felt like I was treated like an illegal that's come here to 'steal your jobs and go on welfare'. It feels like she did her utmost best to make it as hard for me as it can be to get a PSC. I brought the same proof of address as my boyfriend... Suddenly it's not good and she cannot accept it.

TLDR: I really hate it when some bureaucrats use whatever little power they have to show you "who's boss".

Kermit.de.frog

You got a PPS number before setting foot in Ireland?

Calhoun

Mashiara wrote: »

I don't know, man. The whole exchange felt very hostile to me once she knew where I was from (an EU country by the way). I don't know if it was discrimination or she really had a **** day, but I felt like I was treated like an illegal that's come here to 'steal your jobs and go on welfare'. It feels like she did her utmost best to make it as hard for me as it can be to get a PSC. I brought the same proof of address as my boyfriend... Suddenly it's not good and she cannot accept it.

TLDR: I really hate it when some bureaucrats use whatever little power they have to show you "who's boss".

Not discrimination, some people when they know they are untouchable and cannot be sacked just stop caring about how the deal with people.

Richard tea

Calhoun wrote: »

Not discrimination, some people when they know they are untouchable and cannot be sacked just stop caring about how the deal with people.

Sounds like the civil servant was doing their job. More of this please. What is the gig with getting a pps number before entering the country? Is this legal?

cantdecide

I remember once trying to register a motorbike I'd bought in the UK and the guy asked for €200 more than I had expected using the online calculator (and was on the bank draft I'd brought) I had printed so I had to go away. I was scratching my head wondering what had gone wrong and went back to the website and the guy was being a total nob about it and talking to me like I was a fool. I knew he knew the reason but wasn't going to say anything.

After going back to the calculator much fumbling about with the criteria, I realised that I had try to register the bike before it had its registration birthday that year based on its date of first registration on the UK documents and that if I waited two more days, I'd get it registered for the price I had originally expected. Three days later I arrived in, waited until I was sure I'd not have to face yer man and made it to the counter. With the new lady, I pretended nothing about being there days before.

The guy actually came over to 'assist' his colleague saying he'd be able to take me because I'd 'already been in' but she was just about done at that point and I had this beautiful moment of handing the draft to the lady and saying with a smile "there you go, a draft for the full €350" which she took out of my hand. He literally went red in the face and stormed off.

Turnipman

Richard tea wrote: »

Sounds like the civil servant was doing their job. More of this please. What is the gig with getting a pps number before entering the country? Is this legal?

Well nigh impossible. Amazed to hear that this particular individual got one. Then, instead of being grateful, she starts moaning.

I'm really gutted that the civil service didn't roll out the red carpet for her. Surely they must have known that - in her own mind at least - she's a very important person.

Hector Bellend

You could pay for your own rent, education and upkeep if you dislike bureaucracy

Del2005

Mashiara wrote: »

So I just arrived in Ireland at the end of last month (to start my undergraduate studies) and all's been pretty grand until today.
I go to my appointment to get a Public Services Card (having already received a PPS number before I arrived here in order to apply for a grant), I get there early, I greet the lady at the desk, all is good... until I give her my national ID.

Her attitude changes completely. My rental contract (the same contract that my boyfriend -of another nationality- used to register just a few days beforehand) is not good apparently(it was sent in electronic format by an estate agent so all is legal) as it was not signed by all parties in original (estate agent says according to the electronic commerce act 2000 they would be forced to accept it since it's a legal document) but okay, whatever, I understand she wants it signed the old fashioned way. I show her a letter from my university stating where I live (signed and sent electronically), she says she can't accept it even if i print it because she needs a signature in original.

She also asks how come I got a PPS number before coming to Ireland. I try and explain that according to the eligibility criteria for that particular grant I was eligible to apply for it and so I got in contact with the right department and they were kind enough to send the PPS number to me in advance. She says "oh so you just took a look at the criteria and decided you are eligible so you just asked for a PPS number?!".

I don't know, man. The whole exchange felt very hostile to me once she knew where I was from (an EU country by the way). I don't know if it was discrimination or she really had a **** day, but I felt like I was treated like an illegal that's come here to 'steal your jobs and go on welfare'. It feels like she did her utmost best to make it as hard for me as it can be to get a PSC. I brought the same proof of address as my boyfriend... Suddenly it's not good and she cannot accept it.

TLDR: I really hate it when some bureaucrats use whatever little power they have to show you "who's boss".

Emailed copies of documents aren't considered genuine copies for legal purposes. You need to get the document faxed, get a notarized copy or have the original.

Your partner met someone not doing their job and you didn't.

Calhoun

Richard tea wrote: »

Sounds like the civil servant was doing their job. More of this please. What is the gig with getting a pps number before entering the country? Is this legal?

You can do you job in a way that leaves people not feeling like they were being discriminated against.

I am not in the civil servants so i cannot tell you but the onus should be on them to do all relevant checks ahead of time.

Irish Kings

If it's any consolation Mashiara, they treat Irish people with even more contempt.

Pac1Man

Ok I'll ask it then.


Tyranny?

NOVA MCMXCIV

Mashiara wrote: »

So I just arrived in Ireland at the end of last month (to start my undergraduate studies) and all's been pretty grand until today.

Welcome to Ireland! And good luck with your studies!

However, your use of the word 'grand' is – it's not incorrect, as such – just ineffective, or not right. For starters, I wouldn't use an adjective in front of the word Grand – it's not necessary, it defeats the purpose. Grand is just grand. Often – it doesn't necessarily mean good – or indeed bad, but it can mean both – or neither. For example:

Person A: How was your dinner?
Person B: It was grand.

Person B could literally mean anything here. He may have enjoyed the dinner immensely – but equally, he could be saying – it was neither good nor bad.

Person A: I have a sore leg...
Person B: Ah you're grand!

Here, Person B is telling Person A – that there is nothing wrong with them.

Bear in mind – 'Ah you're grand' can also mean – 'you are welcome'...

It's all about context. If you had the best day ever – grand is not appropriate. If you're day was perfectly fine or perfectly average – grand is perfect. If you are neither happy nor sad – you are grand. But be aware, 'I'm grand' can also mean – 'I'm am not ok'...

Anyway – welcome to Ireland!

sabat

Yeah I can see how it might seem strange-other European countries aren't really known for their bureaucracy.

larchielads

Am i the only one who read the title as pretty tranny beaureaucrats

Oafley Jones

NOVA MCMXCIV wrote: »

Welcome to Ireland! And good luck with your studies!

However, your use of the word 'grand' is – it's not incorrect, as such – just ineffective, or not right. For starters, I wouldn't use an adjective in front of the word Grand – it's not necessary, it defeats the purpose. Grand is just grand. Often – it doesn't necessarily mean good – or indeed bad, but it can mean both – or neither. For example:

Person A: How was your dinner?
Person B: It was grand.

Person B could literally mean anything here. He may have enjoyed the dinner immensely – but equally, he could be saying – it was neither good nor bad.

Person A: I have a sore leg...
Person B: Ah you're grand!

Here, Person B is telling Person A – that there is nothing wrong with them.

Bear in mind – 'Ah you're grand' can also mean – 'you are welcome'...

It's all about context. If you had the best day ever – grand is not appropriate. If you're day was perfectly fine or perfectly average – grand is perfect. If you are neither happy nor sad – you are grand. But be aware, 'I'm grand' can also mean – 'I'm am not ok'...

Anyway – welcome to Ireland!

The use of “Grand” jumps out at me. It’s a particularly Irish usage

Oafley Jones

NOVA MCMXCIV wrote: »

Welcome to Ireland! And good luck with your studies!

However, your use of the word 'grand' is – it's not incorrect, as such – just ineffective, or not right. For starters, I wouldn't use an adjective in front of the word Grand – it's not necessary, it defeats the purpose. Grand is just grand. Often – it doesn't necessarily mean good – or indeed bad, but it can mean both – or neither. For example:

Person A: How was your dinner?
Person B: It was grand.

Person B could literally mean anything here. He may have enjoyed the dinner immensely – but equally, he could be saying – it was neither good nor bad.

Person A: I have a sore leg...
Person B: Ah you're grand!

Here, Person B is telling Person A – that there is nothing wrong with them.

Bear in mind – 'Ah you're grand' can also mean – 'you are welcome'...

It's all about context. If you had the best day ever – grand is not appropriate. If you're day was perfectly fine or perfectly average – grand is perfect. If you are neither happy nor sad – you are grand. But be aware, 'I'm grand' can also mean – 'I'm am not ok'...

Anyway – welcome to Ireland!

The use of “Grand” jumps out at me. It’s a particularly Irish usage for a non national who’s just arrived in the country.

pleas advice

petty tyranny? Welcome to Boards.ie

suicide_circus

in the country a wet weekend and already crying discrimination? you'll fit right in.

Pawwed Rig

Richard tea wrote: »

Sounds like the civil servant was doing their job. More of this please. What is the gig with getting a pps number before entering the country? Is this legal?

Yes its legal. Why wouldn't it be? We get them all the time for people who need them but cannot travel for whatever reason.

The J Stands for Jay

I'm wondering why someone would want a PSC?

Mashiara

Hector Bellend wrote: »

You could pay for your own rent, education and upkeep if you dislike bureaucracy

I am actually paying for a big chunk of it myself through my savings, though even if I wasn't, I'd still need a PPS and such so I'm not really following your point.

McGaggs wrote: »

I'm wondering why someone would want a PSC?

I'm being told it's handy to have for various services when you need them, also will be working part time so I need access to the tax(I believe you call it revenue?) Website. Anyway, I got a notification saying in order to use those services I would need to meet them face to face for a PSC. So I'm doing that. My boyfriend got a PSC with his PPS number so I think it's standard to give them together?



To all those saying I'm moaning- yeah I am. You would be too if you were in my shoes, the lady WAS unnecessarily rude in her attitude. It doesn't take much to treat people with kindness!
To those thinking the grant is paying for all my expenses, hah, funny. Ireland IS expensive and I knew that from the start, it's why I saved up money to be able to study here. Just because you see some foreigners leeching off welfare don't assume we are all the same.
To all the others who had a kind word to say in this thread, thanks. I love Ireland and wanted to study here because of people like you

Cordell

I don't know about your windup detectors, but mine is going off the scale.

Mrs OBumble

Richard tea wrote: »

Sounds like the civil servant was doing their job. More of this please. What is the gig with getting a pps number before entering the country? Is this legal?

Bull****. They were being an arse and they knew it. I'd have very politely asked to see their supervisor - and possibly asked them to write to the university explaining why a hand signed letter was required.

(As more and more stuff is issued electronically, finding acceptable proof-of-address is going to be a problem we all face.)

There are various totally legal reasons why someone can get a PPS number before entering the country. I didn't know that a particular type of student arrangement was one of them - but it doesn't surprise me.

OP it very likely was racism.

Working class heroes

OP is from Leitrim.

Wind up or not some of the gnib staff can be a pain to deal with!

suicide_circus

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

OP it very likely was racism.

Malayalam

Mashiara wrote: »

To all those saying I'm moaning- yeah I am. You would be too if you were in my shoes, the lady WAS unnecessarily rude in her attitude. It doesn't take much to treat people with kindness!

Hopefully your next bureaucratic engagement will go better for you, OP. It's a tricky business. Never mind the bureaucrats, I barely stopped myself reaching over the counter and throttling the short-assed prat who served me in Argos last week. Irish people can be very rude (me included, obviously). But I find Thursday afternoons when the moon is in Cancer are generally good for me with regards to bureaucrats. I check which nostril is flowing most freely and always approach them from that side. I wear amethyst jewellery to be on the safe side, and bring a cap to milk the brim. On all other occasions I beg my husband to deal with the gobshytes as to do otherwise is to court disaster for our descendants. Good luck!

PlaneSpeeking

Mashiara wrote: »

I am actually paying for a big chunk of it myself through my savings, though even if I wasn't, I'd still need a PPS and such so I'm not really following your point.


I'm being told it's handy to have for various services when you need them, also will be working part time so I need access to the tax(I believe you call it revenue?) Website. Anyway, I got a notification saying in order to use those services I would need to meet them face to face for a PSC. So I'm doing that. My boyfriend got a PSC with his PPS number so I think it's standard to give them together?



To all those saying I'm moaning- yeah I am. You would be too if you were in my shoes, the lady WAS unnecessarily rude in her attitude. It doesn't take much to treat people with kindness!
To those thinking the grant is paying for all my expenses, hah, funny. Ireland IS expensive and I knew that from the start, it's why I saved up money to be able to study here. Just because you see some foreigners leeching off welfare don't assume we are all the same.
To all the others who had a kind word to say in this thread, thanks. I love Ireland and wanted to study here because of people like you

Sorry but it screams that you've just arrived here and want to mooch off us and complain.

Good luck and all that but you're asking for stuff many taxpayers don't get. just be grateful you're here.

Ush1

Getting free money from the government should be hard.

PlaneSpeeking

Ush1 wrote: »

Getting free money from the government should be hard.

Especially if you're just off the plane!

Grayson

reminds me of this.

LirW

You need a PPSN for your P60 and P45 too, it's pretty much the first thing you have to get, I don't know what the problem is? If OP needs to go to the GP and needs access in any way to the Public health system for simple things, they can't when they don't have a PPSN.
When I moved to Ireland, I got pregnant not too long after it and in order to access the public maternity care system you need a PPSN, so I got a letter from the GP, brought all my other documents and got it.

If you're living in Ireland for more than a few months there's pretty much no way around to get it. Dunno why people see everyone with a PSC as a leech of the system.

As for civil servants, forget about it, move on, I find them easier to deal with here than in a good few other places.

They're trying to sneak in psc for everyone. A friend was saying they need one now to get an irish passport

LirW

bluewolf wrote: »

They're trying to sneak in psc for everyone. A friend was saying they need one now to get an irish passport

You also need it when you're applying for paternity or maternity leave. A lot of people around me I know had to get it when they were expecting.

Also when you go to your appointment to get a PPSN you get a PSC too. No way around it when you apply for a PPSN.

BrokenArrows

OP, its the same in every country in the world, people who get paid very little money for doing a **** job going on a little power trip and being rude.

While they are technically correct that you dont have the correct documents you have two options.

You either do what they ask and get the original documents or you just go back another time and hopefully get a person who will allow you to process the documents that you have.

If you are looking for free money from the government the least you can do is to put up with a little bit of inconvenience.

ohnonotgmail

bluewolf wrote: »

They're trying to sneak in psc for everyone. A friend was saying they need one now to get an irish passport

Only for first time applicants not renewals.

Wheety

Mashiara, probably shouldn't have started this in 'After Hours' if you wanted genuine help

Malayalam

I'm surprised at the people jumping down the OPs throat, though I shouldn't be, I suppose :rolleyes:

They are applying for a grant, like all Irish and EU students are entitled to apply for, that's the sort of thing we agreed to when we , like, joined the EEC. That people from abroad could have access to our socialised systems, like education and health care etc. and if in need welfare support. Loads of Irish people benefit from subsidised studies in the EU, loads of the course fees are government subsidised and are very affordable, thus benefiting the Irish students who travel there in numbers. Jaysus I'd be tempted meself to study in University in Brussels or somewhere at the great fees on offer - SUBSIDISED fees, like €600 per year for a Bachelors or Masters. Irish kids on Erasmus courses benefit in their thousands every year from such subsidised programs. And when they are there they get access to great health care plans at really cheap prices. That are all subsidised! You know, the 'social'' part of the social democracy thing we have supposedly got going here in Europe.

OP, there is nothing more likely to annoy the crap out of Irish people than waffling on about people ''leeching'', even though a huge number of the bull**** jobs in this country are subsidised in some way by socialised resources, grants, tax breaks, government subsidies or direct government funding etc.

irelandrover

Whats the complaint, that the Irish Governement wouldnt accept an unsigned lease and a letter from a University that you showed them on the screen of a phone/laptop?

Did you look up the documents requirements before you went to the office?

Gimme A Pound

Malayalam, I think it's more the complaining about someone just doing their job (even if it seems petty, that's the way they have to do it) and use of the words "tyranny" and "discrimination" that riles people.

Malayalam

Tristen Hallowed Sociologist wrote: »

Malayalam, I think it's more the complaining about someone just doing their job (even if it seems petty, that's the way they have to do it) and use of the words "tyranny" and "discrimination" that riles people.

Maybe, hahah ....I know what you mean.

But I love an oul bit of hyperbole and drama when one is riled up :P It's what gets me through the world of other people anyway

Boom_Bap

Somedaythefire

OP chose the absolute worst place to post this.

Cordell

Somedaythefire wrote: »

OP chose the absolute worst place to post this.

It's actually the best place for a windup or for playing the racism card the second something doesn't go your way. Or for both at the same time.

RandomName2

My issue with all this is that people who are legal and above board tend to get a hard time, while those who are playing the system can neatly side-step much of this. I mean we can all name non-EU nationals who are working full time in jobs which aren't eligible for work visas. We give citizenship based purely on being in the country long enough, yet we make completely legitimate visitors jump through endless hoops.

I have no problem with rules, as long as they are sensible, but not all rules are equal. The OP could easily forge a signature if they were not being above board. How easily? Well it wasn't being compared to anything, was it!?!

dxhound2005

RandomName2 wrote: »

My issue with all this is that people who are legal and above board tend to get a hard time, while those who are playing the system can neatly side-step much of this. I mean we can all name non-EU nationals who are working full time in jobs which aren't eligible for work visas. We give citizenship based purely on being in the country long enough, yet we make completely legitimate visitors jump through endless hoops.

I have no problem with rules, as long as they are sensible, but not all rules are equal. The OP could easily forge a signature if they were not being above board. How easily? Well it wasn't being compared to anything, was it!?!

You are very very knowledgeable about all of this.

It is a subject which never even crossed my mind. I am commenting because like me, there could be hundreds of thousands of us who do not know any non-EU nationals who are in the situation that you describe. Nor have any knowledge of the "hoops" which people are made jump through.

Turnipman

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

Yes its legal. Why wouldn't it be? We get them all the time for people who need them but cannot travel for whatever reason.

Interesting to see that you know (or think that you know) more about the matter than the Department that actually issues the PPSNs does!


"
I'm moving to Ireland soon - how do I get a Personal Public Service number?

Allocation of PPS numbers is done by face-to-face interview. However, you can book an appointment for a PPS number allocation interview before you move to Ireland - see 'Online appointments' below. You should attend the PPS Number Allocation Centre in the county that you intend to live in.
Before you can be allocated a PPS number, you must show that one is required for a transaction with a specified body.
You will be asked to produce documentary evidence of identity and address in Ireland. Different documentary evidence will be required, depending on your nationality. A complete list of documents required as evidence of your identity is available.

I am not resident in Ireland but I need a PPS number - how do I get it?

In some cases people who are not resident in Ireland may need a PPS number. For example, someone who is a beneficiary under an Irish will may need to supply a PPS number before a grant of probate can issue.
The DEASP's Client Identity Services (CIS) provide a service for non-resident applicants who cannot attend at a designated PPS Registration Centre and who need a PPS number. If you want to use this service, you must show documentary evidence that you need a PPS number for a transaction with a specified body. You cannot use this exceptional application process if you are living in or intend to relocate to Ireland for any period of time.

pickarooney

Del2005 wrote: »

Emailed copies of documents aren't considered genuine copies for legal purposes. You need to get the document faxed, get a notarized copy or have the original.

Your partner met someone not doing their job and you didn't.

This 18th century bull**** is the bane of modern life. Ludicrous insistence on antiquated technology for no discernible reason and it's everywhere. So many so-called on-line services that require faxes and hand-signed documents sent by post because some luddite along the line resists change, ensuring that everyone else is basically pissing in the wind trying to implement a modern, secure, user-friendly solution.

Bloody notaries. Professional stampers in this day and age!

Roger Hassenforder

pickarooney wrote: »

This 18th century bull**** is the bane of modern life. Ludicrous insistence on antiquated technology for no discernible reason and it's everywhere. So many so-called on-line services that require faxes and hand-signed documents sent by post because some luddite along the line resists change, ensuring that everyone else is basically pissing in the wind trying to implement a modern, secure, user-friendly solution.

Bloody notaries. Professional stampers in this day and age!

You should be appointed to the a place like the passport office.
Ideas like yours , scanned copies and emails and such, could really speed up the service, ensure Irish passports are expeditiously handed out.
(Mossad at al would surely give that a high customer satisfaction rating!)

pickarooney

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

You should be appointed to the a place like the passport office.
Ideas like yours , scanned copies and emails and such, could really speed up the service, ensure Irish passports are expeditiously handed out.
(Mossad at al would surely give that a high customer satisfaction rating!)

Too damn right. When my passport runs out, why on earth should I have to fill out a hand-written form, get a fecking priest or police officer to sign a photo taken in a photo booth, send a cheque in the post to Paris along with my existing passport, wait for them to forward it to Dublin and wait another month or two without a passport for them to send the new one?

They already have all my details, I should be able to email in an updated photo and pay on line and have the new passport sent directly without any of that ****ehawkery.

I applied for a replacement driving licence the other day (in another astounding display of civil-servantitis the lady at the town hall refused my passport as proof of identity to sign my daughter up for school lunches because "the dates aren't written in French" and thought twice about accepting my driving licence because it was a bit creased).

Everything went fine with the online application until the last step which involved the photo. I had a choice between driving 30km to an authorised centre to get a 'certified digital photo' and upload that or download the form, print it out, take a photo on my phone, print that out, glue it to the form and post it in.

And don't get me started on Banking 365!

Mrs OBumble

Turnipman wrote: »

Interesting to see that you know (or think that you know) more about the matter than the Department that actually issues the PPSNs does!


"
I'm moving to Ireland soon - how do I get a Personal Public Service number?

Allocation of PPS numbers is done by face-to-face interview. However, you can book an appointment for a PPS number allocation interview before you move to Ireland - see 'Online appointments' below. You should attend the PPS Number Allocation Centre in the county that you intend to live in.
Before you can be allocated a PPS number, you must show that one is required for a transaction with a specified body.
You will be asked to produce documentary evidence of identity and address in Ireland. Different documentary evidence will be required, depending on your nationality. A complete list of documents required as evidence of your identity is available.

I am not resident in Ireland but I need a PPS number - how do I get it?

In some cases people who are not resident in Ireland may need a PPS number. For example, someone who is a beneficiary under an Irish will may need to supply a PPS number before a grant of probate can issue.
The DEASP's Client Identity Services (CIS) provide a service for non-resident applicants who cannot attend at a designated PPS Registration Centre and who need a PPS number. If you want to use this service, you must show documentary evidence that you need a PPS number for a transaction with a specified body. You cannot use this exceptional application process if you are living in or intend to relocate to Ireland for any period of time.

There are some other exceptions too. One is for people who are biying a property here but haven't moved here yet.