The petty tyranny of bureaucrats

RandomName2

dxhound2005 wrote: »

You are very very knowledgeable about all of this.

It's not exactly a state secret.

dxhound2005 wrote: »

I am commenting because like me, there could be hundreds of thousands of us who do not know any non-EU nationals who are in the situation that you describe.

Ever taken a taxi? Taxi-driving isn't eligible for work visa. Ever been to a restaurant? Being a waiter or kitchen assistant aren't eligible for a work visa. Ever been to a small private shop? Working at a till isn't eligible for a work visa.

Like literally just do one of these things and chances are you'll see someone who can just ignore fundamental immigration rules of the country, and will probably get citizenship a few years from now.

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Nor have any knowledge of the "hoops" which people are made jump through.

Take a look at the OP. Receiving the GNIB card seems to be unnecessarily awkward for one.

dxhound2005

The taxi driver could be French or Congolese. The restaurant staff could be American and Argentinian, or Spanish and Italian. I do see people who were probably not born here, but how am I meant to know who is who and whether they have a visa? How do you go about finding out?

People tend to complain when something goes wrong. If the OP had had a satisfactory experience I doubt they would have taken to the internet to let us know. So I will not use that example to assume that the whole system is bad.

lawred2

McGaggs wrote: »

I'm wondering why someone would want a PSC?

Every service provided by the Irish state will soon require one if they don't already.

It's not just for welfare.

Passport, driving licence applications etc so require it

Mrs OBumble

RandomName2 wrote: »

Ever taken a taxi? Taxi-driving isn't eligible for work visa. Ever been to a restaurant? Being a waiter or kitchen assistant aren't eligible for a work visa. Ever been to a small private shop? Working at a till isn't eligible for a work visa.

Like literally just do one of these things and chances are you'll see someone who can just ignore fundamental immigration rules of the country, and will probably get citizenship a few years from now.

Its far more likely that the person already has citizenship or is here legally eg on a WHV.

pickarooney

pickarooney wrote: »

Too damn right. When my passport runs out, why on earth should I have to fill out a hand-written form, get a fecking priest or police officer to sign a photo taken in a photo booth, send a cheque in the post to Paris along with my existing passport, wait for them to forward it to Dublin and wait another month or two without a passport for them to send the new one?

They already have all my details, I should be able to email in an updated photo and pay on line and have the new passport sent directly without any of that ****ehawkery.

I applied for a replacement driving licence the other day (in another astounding display of civil-servantitis the lady at the town hall refused my passport as proof of identity to sign my daughter up for school lunches because "the dates aren't written in French" and thought twice about accepting my driving licence because it was a bit creased).

Everything went fine with the online application until the last step which involved the photo. I had a choice between driving 30km to an authorised centre to get a 'certified digital photo' and upload that or download the form, print it out, take a photo on my phone, print that out, glue it to the form and post it in.

And don't get me started on Banking 365!

I renewed my irish passport online. Had it in my hand 2 days later. I was very impressed with it.
It's only a new thing now

ohnonotgmail

bluewolf wrote: »

I renewed my irish passport online. Had it in my hand 2 days later. I was very impressed with it.
It's only a new thing now

pickarooney is in france. the online renewal is only for irish residents.

ohnonotgmail

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

pickarooney is in france. the online renewal is only for irish residents.

I know but the lad above him was saying in general and it reminded me so i thought I'd throw it out there

riffmongous

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

pickarooney is in france. the online renewal is only for irish residents.

I did mine online last year from abroad.. I think they only changed the rule just beforehand

It was still a pain getting the photo right, I had to go to a pro in the end

pickarooney

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

pickarooney is in france. the online renewal is only for irish residents.

I remember being told that (the paper application form is a different one) but it might not be true (seriously, the idiocy of an online application form only being valid from one geographical area!). It doesn't work for kids either, alas.

This is the thing, you can see a lot of effort goes into these things but there's always some crapology preventing it from being a streamlined process.

trashcan

bluewolf wrote: »

I renewed my irish passport online. Had it in my hand 2 days later. I was very impressed with it.
It's only a new thing now

Same here. Was very impressed. Couldn't believe how quickly it arrived. When I checked beforehand by phone the guy said online applications were taking about ten days. Even that would have been fine to be honest.

Canard

I'm starting a course in the UK soon and the university's bureaucracy is crazy. I don't know if they think they're entitled to be so old-fashioned because they're old and have a good reputation, but jesus. Not a single person could tell me what to get as an Irish equivalent of a DBS check - and the lazy sh1thead working in admissions didn't even reply to me. :rolleyes: You can't get garda vetted for a non-Irish organisation, and the background check that I got specifically states that it is not to be used in place of a vetting. They accepted it anyway, but only after my friend who'd been through it before told me which document to get.

Then I got allocated the wrong sub-college by their Student Finance system and had to send four pages, signed and dated, to change it, rather than them just letting me do it online, or just changing the bloody bank details of where the fees were going. Asked the university if they could just sort it internally, but they refused. Galling. The amount of bureaucracy in modern life is so unnecessary and drives me up the wall.

pickarooney wrote: »

I remember being told that (the paper application form is a different one) but it might not be true (seriously, the idiocy of an online application form only being valid from one geographical area!). It doesn't work for kids either, alas.

This is the thing, you can see a lot of effort goes into these things but there's always some crapology preventing it from being a streamlined process.

French bureaucracy is on a whole other level. I have so many stories I could share about it that I wouldn't know where to start, but the sheer amount of absolute bullsh1t information you get given and contradictory, self-righteous secretaries standing in your way is enough to make me never want to live there again.

Billgirlylegs

pickarooney wrote: »

Too damn right. When my passport runs out, why on earth should I have to fill out a hand-written form, get a fecking priest or police officer to sign a photo taken in a photo booth, send a cheque in the post to Paris along with my existing passport, wait for them to forward it to Dublin and wait another month or two without a passport for them to send the new one?

They already have all my details, I should be able to email in an updated photo and pay on line and have the new passport sent directly without any of that ****ehawkery.

I applied for a replacement driving licence the other day (in another astounding display of civil-servantitis the lady at the town hall refused my passport as proof of identity to sign my daughter up for school lunches because "the dates aren't written in French" and thought twice about accepting my driving licence because it was a bit creased).

Everything went fine with the online application until the last step which involved the photo. I had a choice between driving 30km to an authorised centre to get a 'certified digital photo' and upload that or download the form, print it out, take a photo on my phone, print that out, glue it to the form and post it in.

And don't get me started on Banking 365!

Good man.
If it is that simple for you to do it, do you think it is more difficult for a third party to do it "for my friend"

PlaneSpeeking

Canard wrote: »

I'm starting a course in the UK soon and the university's bureaucracy is crazy. I don't know if they think they're entitled to be so old-fashioned because they're old and have a good reputation, but jesus. Not a single person could tell me what to get as an Irish equivalent of a DBS check - and the lazy sh1thead working in admissions didn't even reply to me. :rolleyes: You can't get garda vetted for a non-Irish organisation, and the background check that I got specifically states that it is not to be used in place of a vetting. They accepted it anyway, but only after my friend who'd been through it before told me which document to get.

Then I got allocated the wrong sub-college by their Student Finance system and had to send four pages, signed and dated, to change it, rather than them just letting me do it online, or just changing the bloody bank details of where the fees were going. Asked the university if they could just sort it internally, but they refused. Galling. The amount of bureaucracy in modern life is so unnecessary and drives me up the wall.


French bureaucracy is on a whole other level. I have so many stories I could share about it that I wouldn't know where to start, but the sheer amount of absolute bullsh1t information you get given and contradictory, self-righteous secretaries standing in your way is enough to make me never want to live there again.

You might want to lose the entitled attitude before you go - the bold part especially.

I do hate to break it to you but at this time of the year you are but one of hundreds of new students (I've 450 starting on Monday), what you are calling a lazy ****head is likely someone putting in 12 hour days without a break.

I have students like you and you are a f***ing nightmare.

CrankyHaus

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

You might want to lose the entitled attitude before you go - the bold part especially.

I do hate to break it to you but at this time of the year you are but one of hundreds of new students (I've 450 starting on Monday), what you are calling a lazy ****head is likely someone putting in 12 hour days without a break.

I have students like you and you are a f***ing nightmare.

It's hardly out of the blue though is it? Colleges know they will have a high volume of enquiries around this time of year and should take measures to handle it.

The college is happy to take his/her business, but not bothered to give basic assistance in complying with their registration requirements.

sbsquarepants

pickarooney wrote: »

I applied for a replacement driving licence the other day (in another astounding display of civil-servantitis the lady at the town hall refused my passport as proof of identity to sign my daughter up for school lunches because "the dates aren't written in French" and thought twice about accepting my driving licence because it was a bit creased).

French??

Edit - Never mind, I've just copped you're in France!:o:o:o

PlaneSpeeking

CrankyHaus wrote: »

It's hardly out of the blue though is it? Colleges know they will have a high volume of enquiries around this time of year and should take measures to handle it.

The college is happy to take his/her business, but not bothered to give basic assistance in complying with their registration requirements.

We do know but students tend to have zero perception of the fact that things take time at busy periods and also that there are some things they have to do themselves.

archer22

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

Sorry but it screams that you've just arrived here and want to mooch off us and complain.

Good luck and all that but you're asking for stuff many taxpayers don't get. just be grateful you're here.

Would be nice if the Irish were "grateful" for all the tens of billions they have mooched off of EU taxpayers in the last 40 years.
Including the billions they got to rescue them a few years ago to save their sorry holes after they collapsed their economy with greed greed and corruption :mad:

Gimme A Pound

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

You might want to lose the entitled attitude before you go - the bold part especially.

I do hate to break it to you but at this time of the year you are but one of hundreds of new students (I've 450 starting on Monday), what you are calling a lazy ****head is likely someone putting in 12 hour days without a break.

I have students like you and you are a f***ing nightmare.

Thank you!

It really irks me when "extremely busy" is referred to as lazy and "not bothered". It's the default assumption - could only be incompetence because they're such a special snowflake and not one of hundreds. And "they should have measures" by experts who seem to know how the office operates without setting foot in there. There ARE measures but delays during busy periods are simply unavoidable. They can't increase staff just for those few weeks, and maybe if students/customers didn't leave things until the last minute it would relieve some of the burden.

ohnonotgmail

archer22 wrote: »

Would be nice if the Irish were "grateful" for all the tens of billions they have mooched off of EU taxpayers in the last 40 years.
Including the billions they got to rescue them a few years ago to save their sorry holes after they collapsed their economy with greed greed and corruption :mad:

you mean the billions that our grandkids will still be paying back?

PlaneSpeeking

Tristen Hallowed Sociologist wrote: »

Thank you!

It really irks me when "extremely busy" is referred to as lazy and "not bothered". It's the default assumption - could only be incompetence because they're such a special snowflake and not one of hundreds. And "they should have measures" by experts who seem to know how the office operates without setting foot in there. There ARE measures but delays during busy periods are simply unavoidable. They can't increase staff just for those few weeks, and maybe if students/customers didn't leave things until the last minute it would relieve some of the burden.

Early December is the bad part - students who were given 90 days to register with GNIB suddenly realise they need to do so or they're not allowed back in the country after the Xmas break!

Our fault that too apparently!!!

PlaneSpeeking

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

you mean the billions that our grandkids will still be paying back?

That's them, yeah.

Gimme A Pound

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

Early December is the bad part - students who were given 90 days to register with GNIB suddenly realise they need to do so or they're not allowed back in the country after the Xmas break!

Our fault that too apparently!!!

I did a temp stint in admin in a university - absolutely hated it. Good money and perks but by god the stress makes up for it.

Billgirlylegs

archer22 wrote: »

Would be nice if the Irish were "grateful" for all the tens of billions they have mooched off of EU taxpayers in the last 40 years.
Including the billions they got to rescue them a few years ago to save their sorry holes after they collapsed their economy with greed greed and corruption :mad:

While you are correct about the greed and corruption part and you left out the sheer bloody incompetence, you are completely misinformed if you think that the Irish economy was rescued by EU assistance.

Quite the reverse - Irish Society has paid / is paying a big, big price for EU banks / investor greed, corruption and incompetence.

PlaneSpeeking

Tristen Hallowed Sociologist wrote: »

I did a temp stint in admin in a university - absolutely hated it. Good money and perks but by god the stress makes up for it.

The money is - finally! - decent but Jesus it's earned!!!!!

archer22

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

you mean the billions that our grandkids will still be paying back?

You would have a better chance of a junkie on the street paying back his 'loan'.

Canard

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

You might want to lose the entitled attitude before you go - the bold part especially.

I do hate to break it to you but at this time of the year you are but one of hundreds of new students (I've 450 starting on Monday), what you are calling a lazy ****head is likely someone putting in 12 hour days without a break.

I have students like you and you are a f***ing nightmare.

I am literally going from two years teaching at university to this, so I stand by what I said, thanks. Takes seconds to reply to the majority of emails, which I always diligently did, because I'm good at what I do. This was not a difficult question, nor was I the first Irish person to ask it.

The point I was making was that IN SUMMER, this guy couldn't tell me which document I needed coming from the closest country to the UK. While enforcing a strict deadline on me. Why are you feeling a need to defend a situation you've no idea about?

Same guy made me bring my degree cert, in Latin, to the interview. I warned him it was in Latin and asked if they wanted the English transcript instead, was told no. Same guy told me on the day that a Latin cert was no use to them. So no, I stand by what I said.

I'm patient and polite (even if I have steam to let off after), because I know how it works on the other side, actually. But such sheer incompetency and having simple emails ignored multiple times... well, if that's what you think qualifies as acceptable, let's just say I'm glad I'm not going where you work.

PlaneSpeeking

Canard wrote: »

I am literally going from two years teaching at university to this, so I stand by what I said, thanks. Takes seconds to reply to the majority of emails, which I always diligently did, because I'm good at what I do. This was not a difficult question, nor was I the first Irish person to ask it.

The point I was making was that IN SUMMER, this guy couldn't tell me which document I needed coming from the closest country to the UK. While enforcing a strict deadline on me. Why are you feeling a need to defend a situation you've no idea about?

Same guy made me bring my degree cert, in Latin, to the interview. I warned him it was in Latin and asked if they wanted the English transcript instead, was told no. Same guy told me on the day that a Latin cert was no use to them. So no, I stand by what I said.

I'm patient and polite (even if I have steam to let off after), because I know how it works on the other side, actually. But such sheer incompetency and having simple emails ignored multiple times... well, if that's what you think qualifies as acceptable, let's just say I'm glad I'm not going where you work.

As am I plus you'd never get in.

Gimme A Pound

Canard wrote: »

I am literally going from two years teaching at university to this, so I stand by what I said, thanks. Takes seconds to reply to the majority of emails, which I always diligently did, because I'm good at what I do. This was not a difficult question, nor was I the first Irish person to ask it.

The point I was making was that IN SUMMER, this guy couldn't tell me which document I needed coming from the closest country to the UK. While enforcing a strict deadline on me. Why are you feeling a need to defend a situation you've no idea about?

Same guy made me bring my degree cert, in Latin, to the interview. I warned him it was in Latin and asked if they wanted the English transcript instead, was told no. Same guy told me on the day that a Latin cert was no use to them. So no, I stand by what I said.

I'm patient and polite (even if I have steam to let off after), because I know how it works on the other side, actually. But such sheer incompetency and having simple emails ignored multiple times... well, if that's what you think qualifies as acceptable, let's just say I'm glad I'm not going where you work.

Fair enough Canard but just on the last bit, you only said the lazy sh1thead didn't reply to you without considering that there is a massive queue this time of year. Nobody said anything about incompetency and ignoring emails being acceptable - they just said the delay might be because he's so busy (which can be the case yet people never consider this - they decide the only reason could be laziness) and nothing more.

ohnonotgmail

archer22 wrote: »

You would have a better chance of a junkie on the street paying back his 'loan'.

I'm not going to go off on this tangent with you but you're talking nonsense.

Canard

Tristen Hallowed Sociologist wrote: »

Fair enough Canard but just on the last bit, you just said the lazy sh1thead didn't reply to you without considering that there is a massive queue this time of year. Nobody said anything about incompetency and ignoring emails being acceptable - they just said the delay might be because he's so busy (which can be the case yet people never consider this - they decide the only reason could be laziness) and nothing more.

Point taken, but in this case it's two people dealing with this one course specifically (not, say, UCD arts or something huge). For such a simple question, and two emails (not to hassle him, but to make sure he hadn't missed it) to go unanswered, well, what is being answered then? The only inquiry I had I was left to guess at, and my friends who'd been there before told me that it was typical of him (his colleague always gets back to you). I want to stress that I wasn't being needlessly insolent (imo), it was valid frustration at being ignored several times while being hounded for a document I couldn't actually get until they told me what they wanted! Hardly reasonable.

Sardonicat

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

Mashiara wrote: »

I am actually paying for a big chunk of it myself through my savings, though even if I wasn't, I'd still need a PPS and such so I'm not really following your point.


I'm being told it's handy to have for various services when you need them, also will be working part time so I need access to the tax(I believe you call it revenue?) Website. Anyway, I got a notification saying in order to use those services I would need to meet them face to face for a PSC. So I'm doing that. My boyfriend got a PSC with his PPS number so I think it's standard to give them together?



To all those saying I'm moaning- yeah I am. You would be too if you were in my shoes, the lady WAS unnecessarily rude in her attitude. It doesn't take much to treat people with kindness!
To those thinking the grant is paying for all my expenses, hah, funny. Ireland IS expensive and I knew that from the start, it's why I saved up money to be able to study here. Just because you see some foreigners leeching off welfare don't assume we are all the same.
To all the others who had a kind word to say in this thread, thanks. I love Ireland and wanted to study here because of people like you

Sorry but it screams that you've just arrived here and want to mooch off us and complain.

Good luck and all that but you're asking for stuff many taxpayers don't get. just be grateful you're here.

No it doesn't.

And the OP isn't asking for anything except common courtesy and efficiency from a public servant to which we are all entitled. He/she is here to study will be paying for most of it and needs pps and psc to pay prsi/tax when working.

Get off your cross.

OP, I don't think this was racism. This is standard fare for all I'm afraid. Your next visit you could be lucky and meet a nice, polite and efficient person.

You'll find plenty of racist and begrudging commentary on here though.

Good luck with your studies.

Hotblack Desiato

archer22 wrote: »

Would be nice if the Irish were "grateful" for all the tens of billions they have mooched off of EU taxpayers in the last 40 years.

Tens of billions?

Including the billions they got to rescue them a few years ago to save their sorry holes after they collapsed their economy with greed greed and corruption :mad:

That bailout money was a gift? Why weren't we told!

The J Stands for Jay

lawred2 wrote: »

Every service provided by the Irish state will soon require one if they don't already.

It's not just for welfare.

Passport, driving licence applications etc so require it

Managed to renew my licence recently without one. I thought they'd cancelled their plans to expand their use as there was some legal/constitutional issue?

The J Stands for Jay

CrankyHaus wrote: »

It's hardly out of the blue though is it? Colleges know they will have a high volume of enquiries around this time of year and should take measures to handle it.

The college is happy to take his/her business, but not bothered to give basic assistance in complying with their registration requirements.

It seems like they don't even know their own registration requirements.

Hotblack Desiato

Tristen Hallowed Sociologist wrote: »

I did a temp stint in admin in a university - absolutely hated it. Good money and perks but by god the stress makes up for it.

Probably because you were picking up the slack for the permanent staff so they didn't have to, doing half the work for twice your pay

The admin staff in my old college were unbelievably slow, ignorant, incompetent, and just plain thick. It almost made me happy that, as the child of a widowed PAYE worker on a modest income, I didn't qualify for a grant so had the bare minimum of interaction with them. Took months for the sons and daughters of 'impoverished' big farmers to get their full grant money... :rolleyes:

ohnonotgmail

McGaggs wrote: »

Managed to renew my licence recently without one. I thought they'd cancelled their plans to expand their use as there was some legal/constitutional issue?

It is only required for new applicants.

Ragnar Lothbrok

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

You got a PPS number before setting foot in Ireland?

Richard tea wrote: »

Sounds like the civil servant was doing their job. More of this please. What is the gig with getting a pps number before entering the country? Is this legal?

Turnipman wrote: »

Well nigh impossible. Amazed to hear that this particular individual got one. Then, instead of being grateful, she starts moaning.

I'm really gutted that the civil service didn't roll out the red carpet for her. Surely they must have known that - in her own mind at least - she's a very important person.

Hector Bellend wrote: »

You could pay for your own rent, education and upkeep if you dislike bureaucracy

A few things here:

1. You don't have to be resident in Ireland to apply for a PPS number. A couple of years ago, I went over to care for my father who had been diagnosed with Alzheimer's. I claimed Carers' Allowance for 12 months while I was there but first he had to apply for a PPS number in order for me to make my claim. He is 80 years old and has NEVER lived in Ireland. There are probably many other situations where a person may need to apply for a PPS number without being resident in Ireland.

2. I have worked in the dole office in England and in Social Welfare offices in Ireland. Some staff are wonderfully helpful but others (thankfully a minority) have a terrible attitude towards the public, regardless of their nationality.

3. Some staff in Social Welfare offices just do not know all the rules, either through incompetence or lack of training or whatever. It seems as though the person dealing with the OP was one of these and also perhaps had an unhelpful attitude.

4. The staff member who dealt with the OP possibly had the sort of attitude that many posters here seem to have: You're a foreigner so be grateful for what we give you, don't complain, put up with shoddy service and a bad attitude. How DARE you criticise us??????

5. I also suspect that many of the posters here would have reacted furiously if they ever visited a Social Welfare office for something they were ENTITLED to, and had been treated in such an impolite and unprofessional manner.

6. I actually had responsibility for arranging and issuing PPS numbers to people who did not have a PPS number. The vast majority of these were non-Irish nationals coming into the country. The rules are fairly strict BUT can be explained in a polite and professional manner. I was always aware that I would have been, in many cases, the very first person who would have had dealings in an official capacity with them, and was always aware that my treatment of people could have a very strong influence on how these people judged this country as a whole. I did NOT want to give them a negative impression at the start of their new lives here. Unfortunately, the OP seems to have been dealing with someone who did not even consider this.

7. There is an undercurrent of racism here. The fact that a non-Irish national posts something critical of the system here (which is almost universally criticised by most Irish people) has been met with a tidal wave of posts urging the OP to "Go back home if you don't like the way you are treated here!".

Hopefully the OP does not let their initial treatment (along with some of the posts here) jaundice their view of this country.

pickarooney

Billgirlylegs wrote: »

Good man.
If it is that simple for you to do it, do you think it is more difficult for a third party to do it "for my friend"

To do what? Find a priest to sign a form? Why not a witch to cast a spell on it while I'm at it.

Or send a JPG directly as opposed to printing it out and posting it? Wooo, super secure!

Or scribble on the back of a photo instead of a digital signature? Uncrackable!