Panel van to 9 PAX Camper

cormie

Hey folks, I posted here recently for advice on what would be best to convert to a camper from and a panel van seemed to make the most sense. I've now bought the van, a 2013 Mercedes Sprinter XLWB Super High Roof. It's 7.3m long and is currently registered as a commercial with 3 seats.

I want to make it a 9 seater camper van. I've heard that I may need a walkway between the front and back, meaning I'd have to replace the 2 passenger seats in the front, with only 1 to allow room for a walkway, unless it's possible to get a more compact 2 seat bench for the front, but that depends on how much space is required for the walkway. Ideally, I'd rather there be no need for the walkway as I'd prefer 3 people in the front and 6 in the back as opposed to 7 in the back and 2 up front.

I'd like to put in a scissor gate/security grille behind the driver seat that can expand to the other side if needed and also put another one around half way through the cargo area.

This is the plan I want to start with:
https://scontent-dub4-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.15752-9/s2048x2048/40946721_2371551312884997_2072456642422636544_n.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=39019d0b9f92cad17f2ac8f407275f29&oe=5C30E3E5

I'll then do more as my budget allows for it, but I think getting it registered as a 9 seat camper is probably priority for now.

Would anyone know anyone who may be able to design the custom benches I describe in the above picture? They would be similar to the ones here in terms of how they fold up, but then I'd want them to fold down to a bed too and also be for 3 people, not just 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AqxHj12MHk4

Also, anywhere to supply the security gate? It would be something like this:
There's no need for it to be so strong as it's just to use mainly as a separator and will have minimal force/strain on it.


Other than that, what else would I need? Is it just a sink/gas hob and a removable table and that's it? Is there a requirement that I'd need windows installed in the back too?

Another thing, I may be able to get my hands on 6 free passenger seats. I was thinking maybe I could get these for now and bolt them in to at least get it registered as a camper quicker as my budget may not allow for the custom benches just yet. So would just be a case of swapping out the 6 seats for the 2 benches once I have them, or I'd need to go through another inspection etc?


Any feedback would be great!

autumnalcore

First bit of feedback dont start a new thread.
Second what you are describing is not a camper and wont be seen as such by either revenue or insurance companies.

cormie

Thanks for the feedback. Can I ask why they wouldn't see it as a camper? I mean the end goal is to convert it fully with toilet, sky lights, insulation, solar panels etc, but that's gonna need investment over a period of time.

I thought there were only a few basics needed to class it as a camper? What do you think is the problem with this?

colm_mcm

The problem I would see is that it would be very likely that the van would be more suitable for use for things other than what a camper is designed for.

I don’t know how insurance works, but myself and a friend converted a low roof Transit last year and we had to get a fella from the motor caravan club or somewhere to do an inspection, he nearly failed us because we didn’t have blinds. Thinking being, if we didn’t have blinds in it we clearly weren’t intending to use is as a camper. We got some fitted last minute and all was well in the end.

Not sure if a high roof camper would need the club to sign off on it to get insurance, but that was the case for us.

cormie

Thanks a lot! Anything I'll need to get it classed as a camper, I'll put as priority in terms of budgeting. Are tinted windows without blinds ok, or are windows even necessary at all I wonder? I'd like windows anyway, but just curious in terms of budgeting for now.

Are this the crowd you inspected it do you remember?:
http://motorcaravanclub.com/

Did you arrange the inspection direct with them or through an insurer?

colm_mcm

That’s the ones. Now it may be different with a high roof. You may have your choice of insurers.


There’s 9 seats, how many does it sleep?

alias no.9

I think you're really reaching if you think you'll successfully fit 9 traveling seats and any worthwhile habitation in that size van. You'll end up with a minibus with an on board toilet and come time to re-register it, it'll be obvious to the assessor that it's just a tax dodge.

cormie

A tax dodge in what way? Surely they'd understand how practical it would be to have 9 seats in a van and to be able to go off camping with some friends, load up a tent and have 4 or 5 sleep in the van with the rest in a tent? Then if there's only 2 or 3, or even one going off, you'll still have plenty of living space and the same benches can be used as a big bed.

Look how compact these seats fold up to be at 55 seconds of this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AqxHj12MHk4

with 2 seats they are only hip height, so with 3 it'd still be well under the height of the van, so getting 2 x 3 seater benches in would take up hardly any room at all, then having them convert to the bed too would leave plenty of room for everything else.

alias no.9

cormie wrote: »

A tax dodge in what way? Surely they'd understand how practical it would be to have 9 seats in a van and to be able to go off camping with some friends, load up a tent and have 4 or 5 sleep in the van with the rest in a tent? Then if there's only 2 or 3, or even one going off, you'll still have plenty of living space and the same benches can be used as a big bed.

Look how compact these seats fold up to be at 55 seconds of this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AqxHj12MHk4

with 2 seats they are only hip height, so with 3 it'd still be well under the height of the van, so getting 2 x 3 seater benches in would take up hardly any room at all, then having them convert to the bed too would leave plenty of room for everything else.

A tax dodge seeking classification as a 'motorcaravan' when it's intended function is just a passenger vehicle.

I have a 6 birth coach built with the benefit of an overcab bed and a wide body on the habitation area. Its pretty much the same length as the van you're planning on converting. I have a very good handle on the size and space. What you're proposing will not have plenty of room for anything.

colm_mcm

cormie wrote: »

A tax dodge in what way? Surely they'd understand how practical it would be to have 9 seats in a van and to be able to go off camping with some friends, load up a tent and have 4 or 5 sleep in the van with the rest in a tent? Then if there's only 2 or 3, or even one going off, you'll still have plenty of living space and the same benches can be used as a big bed.

Look how compact these seats fold up to be at 55 seconds of this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AqxHj12MHk4

with 2 seats they are only hip height, so with 3 it'd still be well under the height of the van, so getting 2 x 3 seater benches in would take up hardly any room at all, then having them convert to the bed too would leave plenty of room for everything else.

This sort of thing

cormie wrote: »

Hi there,
I'm looking to get as big a van as possible, under 3m high but at least 4m load length (back of driver seat to rear doors), that will serve the following purposes:

To use as a back up day van for transporting furniture etc
To use for storage
To use as a 9 seater (Driver + 2 up front and 6 fold down seats in the back) for road trips etc
To use as a camper (seats will also double as a fold out bed)

I'd like to go for either:

Ford Transit Jumbo/ELWB
VW Crafter LWB/High Roof or Maxi/Super High Roof
Mercedes Sprinter LWB/High Roof or Maxi/Super High Roof

I want it to be 3.5t GVW Max and driveable on a B license and looking for 4 wheel max, so no twin rear axle.

As far as I'm aware, if a van is to be used to carry passengers in the back, it needs to have windows and seats with belts. Since the likelihood of finding exactly what I want for sale second hand is I imagine zero, I have the following options:

1) Buy a minibus, and take out all seats and fit custom seats - Problem is that most minibuses will be over 3.5GVW and will probably have a higher selling price
2) Buy a crew cab and take out bulk head behind passenger seats and re-line walls and floor to be uniform throughout.
3) Buy a regular panel van and add windows (not sure how big they need to be?), remove bulk head if present behind driver seat.


Which option will have the higher overall cost depends on what kind of van I can buy initially, but I'd like to know the cost estimate to add custom seats and to add windows if necessary and any other necessities I may not be thinking of.

Due to popularity of these vans in the UK compared to Ireland, I will most likely have to buy in the UK and import so will need to take import costs into consideration and also have any customisation done to an approved and accepted standard.

Please see the attached image for more details. Any feedback and cost estimates would be brilliant.

cormie

It's intended function will be a camper, but I'd like to be able to bring as many people as my license allows with a well designed seating and bed plan. I'll also have an additional 2,000kg of train weight allowance to later get a trailer for additional space. I wouldn't be considering so many seats if I felt it wouldn't be practical. For one person it'll definitely be plenty of space. I've as similar van to what you're describing already alias, a wider body box van with the luton over driver seats too, which I've stayed in before and felt there was plenty of room, especially when it was just me. Once I can store a bike or two and a few bags and boxes of fruit, then that's really all I'll need.

kadman

I think you need to put a leash on your enthusiasm, at least in the short term.:)

What you are proposing is not a standard run of the mill, van to camper conversion
for a couple of seats. Where yours differs is not necessarily the ability to seat 9 people,
but the ability to safely transport them along the motorway.

Therein I think is going to be your major stumbling block. Unless of course you have the specs
that vehicle conversion companies have to keep your conversion on track. getting your hands on 6
free passenger seats, aint gonna cut it. You have to know the bolt spec, mounting plates, and
positions where to place these. And then of course you will run into the same issue with the
seatbelts and their fixing methods.

And then you have to prove that a SQI carried out this work, and get it signed off.

I dont want to knock your enthusiasm, but I wouldn't like to see you get a major financial
hit, if you can't cover all the bases.

2 cents.

cormie

Hey, thanks a lot for the warnings. So I guess getting the 6 free seats and putting them in while I get the others made up and designed would be a waste of money given the extras needed to get any seats approved?

So I'm probably better off approaching a company who does conversions and could also design and approve the benches I'm looking at? If such a company exist?

kadman

Have a chat with a conversion company to see whats permissable regarding the
seating and belts before you launch into anything. They might be willing to spec it for you.

cormie

Yeah I'll definitely do that If anyone knows any who may be able to build the seats too, I'd appreciate any recommendations

StupidLikeAFox

You don't necessarily need a walkway from front to back, you just need to have the area clear ie no bulkhead. You can leave the front seats as they are

You will almost certainly need to put in at least 1 window in the back

Revenue has relatively clear guidelines:
https://www.revenue.ie/en/importing-vehicles-duty-free-allowances/guide-to-vrt/conversions/specific-vehicles.aspx

spaceHopper

You could use these type of bench seat frames the are m1 rated and could double as storage and beds.
Put two facing each other with a table on a socket and pole that becomes part of the bed too. How ever they just be forward or read facing you can't have them side facing

lowvolumevehicle.co.nz/2009/06/28/motor-homes-caravans/

cormie

Thanks again for the info everyone!

That would be brilliant if there's no need to have a walkway between the driver area and all I need to do is remove the bulkhead, which I was going to do anyway. The factory seats in the sprinter are awesome and have great storage etc in them too, plus this means that money can go elsewhere now.

It's a little ambiguous how it describes the windows in that revenue link.. "It is expected that the living accommodation space in the rear compartment would have side windows. ", it doesn't entirely sound like it's a requirement, more just an expectation? :pac: I definitely want windows, but again, just trying to budget.

Also, with regards the storage, I wonder is the overhead shelf once the bulkhead is removed going to be enough to tick this box?

These are photos I found of the area I'm talking about:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/paul_bevan/33242800692/in/photostream/lightbox/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/paul_bevan/32555608514/in/photostream/lightbox/

It doesn't look like it, but you can actually fit a fair bit in that shelf.

spacehopper, thanks for the link, are you referring to these seats? http://lowvolumevehicle.co.nz/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/caravan-seatbelt.jpg

I can't see anything else really on that link? These would really be as compact as I'd like.

I'd be after a triple version of this, although with the seats a lot flatter and not curved or contoured so they can fold to 180 degrees to be used as beds then too:


I'm actually surprised I haven't yet found something out there already for what I'd like, I think it's a great idea :pac:

Alkers

The walkway isn't a revenue requirement but it is a requirement of at least one of the insurance companies.

The revenue definitions are pretty poor in fairness and they've been successfully challenged in court for misinterpreting their own guidelines. There's a thread somewhere in this forum with more details.

That being said, a van that just meets the revenue definitions for a campervan will be much harder to insure as a campervan than it will be to tax. You might be able to get around this with a normal commercial policy though? In the grand scheme of your project, what will be the difference to you if it's registered and insured as a van rather than a camper - particularly until you get it progressed to a high standard?

cormie

Thanks for that. Ah, so getting insurance as a camper without the walkway might prove difficult.. Hmmm.. To be honest, I haven't even looked into the cost of camper tax or insurance. I recall the tax is cheap, but commercial is affordable enough on this van @ €333 per year anyway, if camper is cheaper than that, then brilliant.

Insurance wise, I haven't a clue what the difference in price will be, so maybe it won't make too much difference, just as long as it can still be used with the passenger seats and to sleep in and live out of and there's no issues doing this on a commercial policy?

spaceHopper

cormie wrote: »

spacehopper, thanks for the link, are you referring to these seats? http://lowvolumevehicle.co.nz/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/caravan-seatbelt.jpg

I can't see anything else really on that link? These would really be as compact as I'd like.

I'd be after a triple version of this, although with the seats a lot flatter and not curved or contoured so they can fold to 180 degrees to be used as beds then too:

Yes those here's more https://www.reimo.com/en/D-camping_shop/DX-camper_seats_bench_seats_seat_belts_seat_bases/

Keep an eye on adverts and done deal you sometimes see trippel bench seats
You might have to get one made. Can you rotate the front double seat or both seats.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYTwAsW-MLM

If you use bench seat frames you get lots of storage under them.

Why do you need a 9 seater, how many kids do you have, 7 ?

cormie

It's moreso just to go away on trips with friends and that. A load of us went to the UK on a camping festival recently and most had to get flights. It would have been much better to have all just been able to hop into the one van and throw in all the gear and extra tents and that there, same even with going anywhere in Ireland, even moreso as you don't have the ferry cost then either :P

Actually, I saw on that camper club website, they have a deal with Stena. Anyone have any idea how much a return from Dublin - Holyhead is? It would be around €400 with just a driver with this size van usually.

Are you suggesting get the back rest and seat cushion and maybe even seat belts from an existing triple bench and then just have the frame made up? The backrest and cushions would need to be suitable to be able to fold to 0 and 180 degrees so it might be tricky to find.

listermint

That van , nor any in that scale is suitable to fit 9 seats and sleep the same amount of people. You simply will not have the bed space. Max comfortable would be 4 or 5 berth. And that's with some creative boat style up and over design. You'd squeeze a sixth if you took a lower table space as make up bed area but that's it


Your dream is far fetched from reality what you'd want is someone else to buy a second van and park the idea if one van for all.

Also there is a huge amount of work that will involve skills, tools, time and money to get it up to an acceptable standard .


Enthusiasm is great but has to be tempered with reality. I'm toying with the idea of a sprinter conversion once I finish my house renovations , but I have all of the required tools and experience in construction .


I'd suggest you look are the hundreds of sprinter conversion on YouTube to get to the reality of what little space there is in an lwb sprinter. You can just lamp people into it. And as for the scissors door , I've no idea where that came from it's unnecessary to put any door between the cab and rear compartment. Just remove the bulkhead and centre seat. You'll want access between the two it will get old fast getting out of the rear and into the one of the cab doors to get things or move things

cormie

Thanks for the reply and your input.

I was never intending to sleep 9, or anywhere near 9 in this, 4 or 5 is exactly the number I said earlier on in the thread with regards sleeping in the van and then the rest would go in tents. It's a means to get everyone to the one location with tents, bikes and whatever other equipment

This is also a XLWB/Super High roof sprinter, 7.3m total (4.7m from bulkhead to rear door) and about 2.2m from floor to roof. Also down the line I can maybe look at getting a trailer caravan or something similar too as the train weight is 5.5t, but until then, I don't think my idea is tooo far fetched

Would be happy to keep the 3 seats up front if possible, there's enough space between the driver and passenger seats to squeeze by anyway, it's just not a walkway as the handbrake stick is there, you can see it in this video from 2:03: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vbP6aHEJG4

I've also seen a swivel base attachment for the 2 passenger seats that allows you to keep the existing base unit, so you could pass even easier when they are spun half way :P

These are all minor things anyway and I'm happy to put up with them while working within my budget for the rest.

Main thing at the moment is getting the 6 rear passenger seats sorted I guess and then a window too..


EDIT: You can see the double swivel seat here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-U9boeejAy0

It shows how much you can push it back towards the door when it's half way spun around so hopping between the rear and cab would be easy, but too expensive to sort out at the moment and not a priority

spaceHopper

It's very unusual to make a camper carry so many people. You're making it much harder to build pushing up the cost and compromising the end result. You also could easily find it very difficult to insure. I'd scale it back if I were you. The put in bunk beds across the back, a toilet cubical, kitchen and a seating are for 4. Keep the double seat up front but make it spin.

Space the seating are out so that it can become a 6 foot bed. If you but two bench seats facing each other with socket for a table leg in the floor between them you then take out table top and it drops down to make a base for a bend you fill in the gaps with the cushions. If you use the benches I likes they'll be expensive but you can use them in the next van too.

MojoMaker

Let's be honest, you're after a booze bus to carry all your mates and using the van for camping is no consideration whatsover, other than availing of the cheap tax rate and relatively cheap camper insurance rate.

If you said this up front and asked for genuine opinions how you could achieve this with a variety of donor vehicles you would probably get more sympathy and help, but clinging to the campervan fallacy is just annoying - nobody is fooled.

listermint

Are you 100% sure your license allows for this XLWB/Super High roof sprinter,

I dont know if you have the Tonage on your license, id check that out seriously.

Macy0161

I've seen professionally done T2's with 7 seats - 3 front, 3 bench and a "buddy" seat. It's arguably less of a compromise of the traditional layout in a smaller van though.

cormie

Thanks again for the replies

There's a lot of doubt amongst you all here. If I came here posting that I want to put a table and 2 benches in the back, that can fold down to a bed together like the ones spacehopper has pictured, there'd be none of the kerfuffle. Now just because I want what would do the exact same or very similar function, while also being able to fold nicely against the wall when not in use, and also be able to make the most of the 9 person allowance you can have on a B licence, there's all sorts of accusations as to the intended use and what not.

These seats are going to be a lot more compact and take up way less room than regular camper bench seats. I don't need them to be lavish or super cosy. I'm actually surprised there's nothing on the market like what I want already from what I can see. I mean if you're going to have benches and a table in the back, why not have them certified to carry passengers too, in the case there are a load of you going off camping and some will kip in a tent, or a trailer caravan towed by the van? There's all sorts of legitimate possibilities and advantages of such seats.

MojoMaker, hate to disappoint you, but I don't drink. I've been drunk maybe 7 or 8 times in my 16 years of adult life, also, I had to go check the tax rate for a camper after your post, do you really thin I'd go to all this effort and cost for seats like this to save €231 a year in tax The van is already cheap to tax at €333 per year! I don't even know how much insurance will be, but regardless, you're suspicions aren't valid

It's a big van, mine is the one on top (not the one with the big red arrow) here:


I think it's one of the biggest mass produced vans you can drive on a B license. It's big, but still under 3m so automated tolls in Europe that charge crazy money when you are over 3m won't be a problem too. I've put a lot of thought into this :pac: Listermint, yup, I've attached a photo of the VIN plate of the van. Sections are explained here: http://www.mercedesmlclub.com/vin_plate.html so 3.5t GVW and 5.5t train weight, which means I can have a combined weight of 5.5t when towing, but I would need a BE license for that (I think), which I don't have at the moment, so that would be way down the line.


So if anyone would have any recommendations for anywhere that could help design, build and approve these seats, please share

StupidLikeAFox

You will have to get it weighed again after the conversion also so that might push you over the 3.5t once you have the storage, flooring kitchen etc in there.

Your own intentions are sound, but its the unsurers and revenue who are the gatekeepers on this and if they have any suspicions at all the are likely to just say tough luck. I would keep in contact with them, they will be fairly open with you about what can and cant be done. Despite the issues that are being raised here I would love to see the project coming together

kadman

The only people that will know what will or wont pass, and what can and cant be done
are the conversion companies that do this for a living, they are the experts, that may or may not
pass on the info you want, so they are worth a chat.

It would be a devastating outcome if you went to the expense, and failed on a red tape issue.