Panel van to 9 PAX Camper

spaceHopper

It's a big van and it will make a great camper but if you put in 9 seats i don't think you will get insurance. Build it as a7 seater make provision to add more seats and if you find you need them add two more fold down seats and replace it

Del2005

cormie wrote: »

Thanks again for the replies

There's a lot of doubt amongst you all here. If I came here posting that I want to put a table and 2 benches in the back, that can fold down to a bed together like the ones spacehopper has pictured, there'd be none of the kerfuffle. Now just because I want what would do the exact same or very similar function, while also being able to fold nicely against the wall when not in use, and also be able to make the most of the 9 person allowance you can have on a B licence, there's all sorts of accusations as to the intended use and what not.

These seats are going to be a lot more compact and take up way less room than regular camper bench seats. I don't need them to be lavish or super cosy. I'm actually surprised there's nothing on the market like what I want already from what I can see. I mean if you're going to have benches and a table in the back, why not have them certified to carry passengers too, in the case there are a load of you going off camping and some will kip in a tent, or a trailer caravan towed by the van? There's all sorts of legitimate possibilities and advantages of such seats.

MojoMaker, hate to disappoint you, but I don't drink. I've been drunk maybe 7 or 8 times in my 16 years of adult life, also, I had to go check the tax rate for a camper after your post, do you really thin I'd go to all this effort and cost for seats like this to save €231 a year in tax The van is already cheap to tax at €333 per year! I don't even know how much insurance will be, but regardless, you're suspicions aren't valid

It's a big van, mine is the one on top (not the one with the big red arrow) here:


I think it's one of the biggest mass produced vans you can drive on a B license. It's big, but still under 3m so automated tolls in Europe that charge crazy money when you are over 3m won't be a problem too. I've put a lot of thought into this :pac: Listermint, yup, I've attached a photo of the VIN plate of the van. Sections are explained here: http://www.mercedesmlclub.com/vin_plate.html so 3.5t GVW and 5.5t train weight, which means I can have a combined weight of 5.5t when towing, but I would need a BE license for that (I think), which I don't have at the moment, so that would be way down the line.


So if anyone would have any recommendations for anywhere that could help design, build and approve these seats, please share

If it's got a 5.5t MAN then you can't drive it on a B.

cormie wrote: »

Thanks for the reply and your input.

I was never intending to sleep 9, or anywhere near 9 in this, 4 or 5 is exactly the number I said earlier on in the thread with regards sleeping in the van and then the rest would go in tents. It's a means to get everyone to the one location with tents, bikes and whatever other equipment

This is also a XLWB/Super High roof sprinter, 7.3m total (4.7m from bulkhead to rear door) and about 2.2m from floor to roof. Also down the line I can maybe look at getting a trailer caravan or something similar too as the train weight is 5.5t, but until then, I don't think my idea is tooo far fetched

Would be happy to keep the 3 seats up front if possible, there's enough space between the driver and passenger seats to squeeze by anyway, it's just not a walkway as the handbrake stick is there, you can see it in this video from 2:03: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vbP6aHEJG4

I've also seen a swivel base attachment for the 2 passenger seats that allows you to keep the existing base unit, so you could pass even easier when they are spun half way :P

These are all minor things anyway and I'm happy to put up with them while working within my budget for the rest.

Main thing at the moment is getting the 6 rear passenger seats sorted I guess and then a window too..


EDIT: You can see the double swivel seat here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-U9boeejAy0

It shows how much you can push it back towards the door when it's half way spun around so hopping between the rear and cab would be easy, but too expensive to sort out at the moment and not a priority

cormie

Thanks again for the replies!

Definitely need to be careful on the weight StupidLikeAFox. Can hopefully get the seats made in something that's strong enough to pass any tests, light enough to not add much weight and then affordable too. Any suggestions welcome on that too

I won't be adding too much plush to it and will try get things as compact as possible. Will just go with the essentials first and see how I'm fixed weight wise, taking into considering 9 people will weigh maybe about 700kg too.

Kadman, definitely going to speak to some converters before going ahead with anything! I'm hoping to find one who not only knows about the requirements, but can build the benches to satisfy them too. Not sure if there'd be any in Ireland who can do this though

SpaceHopper, why do you think 9 would cause more problems than 7? Just the suspected intended use, size of van, or something else? I wouldn't want to have to do anything twice as it'll cost a lot more, so would rather just get the benches made, I assume it would be cheaper if I get the same thing made twice, than two separate ones designed and built independently too.

Del2005, once the GVW is 3.5t or under, you can drive it on B with no trailer. If you add a trailer, then the combined weight can't be over 5.5t and you need a BE license.

kadman

Dozens of conversion specialists in Ireland.
There was a company in Kilbeggan that specialised in sprinter conversions
for buses ect,
Another in Tullamore, and another in Clara that specialise in ambulance conversions.

Research, research and then more...

As for the seats,,,, conversion costs are one thing, conversion costs with
specific seat type custom fabrication, is a whole other expensive arena.

Any harm in asking what budget you have for the custom conversion you are planning??

autumnalcore

cormie wrote: »

I'd be after a triple version of this, although with the seats a lot flatter and not curved or contoured so they can fold to 180 degrees to be used as beds then too:


I'm actually surprised I haven't yet found something out there already for what I'd like, I think it's a great idea :pac:

Three reasonably sized adults in a low speed 50kmh crash could easily exert over 20 tons of force on the seat and seatbelt mountings, not a simple engineering feat when you add in hinging and temporary connections to the floor. crash testing requires destructive testing and doesnt come cheap. 50k plus for a basic rock and roll bed according to uk manufaturers and wheres the return in a specialist thing like this.

kadman

Might have ben a better option to start with a 16 seater Sprinter minibus as a base
vehicle,and take out 7 seats, and convert that space.

kadman

Here is your solution for 13k. It ticks all your boxes.
At this money you would be foolish to give your self the hassle
of a custom conversion. And factory built to boot.

https://www.donedeal.ie/campers-for-sale/iveco-daily-camper-van-2006-factory-build/19659115

I think my work here is done:D

spaceHopper

kadman wrote: »

Here is your solution for 13k. It ticks all your boxes.
At this money you would be foolish to give your self the hassle
of a custom conversion. And factory built to boot.

No seat belts

kadman

Ad says different, so do pictures,

Iveco Daily Camper Van 2006 (factory build)
15 days 4,308 views Waterford City, Waterford
€13,500
Share
Save
Description

Factory coach built camper, seats 8 seatbelted people. Sleeps 3- 1 double and 1 single.

12 volt plus 240 volt power systems.

15 litre water tank, hot and cold pumped water, sink and shower.

Gas hob and oven

Night heater

Shower Room

Toilet

TV and DVD

88,500 serviced miles

4×4×2 rear storage

Ample storage

Remote control radio system

Electric windows

Towbar

Fire Extinguishers

D.O.E Valid until August 2019

This camper is in fantastic condition and will be an excellent buy.

Certified since Factory.

Alkers

There's another here: https://www.donedeal.ie/campers-for-sale/ldv-campervan-with-awning/19148505

CJhaughey

Personally I'd be looking for a 9 seater minibus, many of them come with night heaters installed already, have insulation fitted already and approved windows.
No big deal to install a skylight or two and a bunk and cooking facilities, but I really think 9 belted seats will pose the biggest problem with Insurers.
All you can do is to see what an approved SQI says on the matter, until then we are all just guessing what the outcome will be.

cormie

Hey everyone, thanks for the continued interest in this

Will get onto the conversion specialists for sure.

I didn't realise the seating thing would be so complicated and potentially so expensive. Budget wise, I really hadn't a clue, but by the sounds of it, it seems I've definitely underestimated what it's going to cost. I mean for the seats, the rest I should be able to get the basics done.. I hope :pac:

Automnalcure, them figures sound scary, but are you saying any seat ever approved to take a passenger in any vehicle, will have had to go through testing with costs of around 50k?

Kadman and Simona, thanks a lot for the suggested vehicles. The IVECO looks decent alright and the LDV looks like good value. I think I got a decent enough deal on the Sprinter, I don't think I could make it close to the IVECO keeping it below the €13,500 it would cost me, but I don't need everything the IVECO has, plus the Sprinter is a 2013 so 7 years younger.

I like the fact the Iveco is quite stealthy, I'd want the sprinter to be similar.

I had to look up what an SQI is, and saw the definition here:
https://www.revenue.ie/en/importing-vehicles-duty-free-allowances/guide-to-vrt/conversions/suitably-qualified-individual.aspx

I'm guessing most of the camper converters would either have one of these working for them, or at least be able to put me in touch with one. Would be good to have a chat with a converter and SQI and see what may or may not be feasible.

If I could find a converter, who could also make custom seats and who has an in house SQI, that'd be perfect!

I came across these:
https://www.donedeal.ie/caraccessories-for-sale/3-seater-folding-seat/18603239

They could be good to put behind the 3 front seats if there's no need for the walkway. It says they have belts already, but this is why I was curious if any seat to be used for passengers would need to pass them tests and how would I know if these seats are legal or not

cormie

Saw the folding seats here:

https://www.instagram.com/p/BnAuvcrHVSm/

Looks like these campovans are converters, I saw them linked to under this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ki7MgGZ5gPI

Now if only I can find some that can take 3 peeps and fold out 180 degrees to be a bed too :pac:


What is DOT compliant? One of the questions on the instagram post is asking if they are compliant or not, do we have that here?


EDIT: Just leaving some info here so I have it later, manufacture of folding seat is Freedman Seating and the double seems affordable here:
https://www.suburbanseats.com/p/double-mid-back-bv-foldaway-bus-seat-in-gray-cloth-with-2point-belts--street-side

3 person flip version (not what I want) available here:
https://www.suburbanseats.com/p/1-2-or-3-person-feather-handi-flip-bus-seat--custom-order



Got talking to live chat:

Hi Rafael, can you tell me, do you have anything like this, but in a 3 seater version:
https://www.suburbanseats.com/p/double-mid-back-bv-foldaway-bus-seat-in-gray-cloth-with-2point-belts--street-side


Rafael at 13:47, Sep 11:
No unfortunately the manufacturer only makes a double in foldaways, you can get a handi flip in a three seater.
Give me a second while I get you the link
https://www.suburbanseats.com/p/1-2-or-3-person-feather-handi-flip-bus-seat--custom-order
Please follow that link to view


Cormac at 13:59, Sep 11:
Can you disclose who the manufactuer of the first one I send is please?

Rafael at 14:00, Sep 11:
It's the same manufacturer as the second one
Freedman Seating

Cormac at 14:00, Sep 11:
Great, thanks, I'm actually looking for something that is a 3 seater like the first one, but not only folds from 0 to 90 degrees to create a backrest, but that could also fold back 180 degrees to create a bed in a camper too :P

Rafael at 14:01, Sep 11:
I understand, if there anything else I can help you with?

Cormac at 14:02, Sep 11:
if I end up going for the double folding one, it says it complies with ADA criteria, does this mean it's suitable for all passenger carriage use? I saw somebody ask if it's DOT compliant in a post online, do you know what this means, and if it is?

Rafael at 14:03, Sep 11:
DOT is the department of transportation
The seats are FMVSS certified
FMVSS is the Federal Motor Vehicle Standards

Cormac at 14:04, Sep 11:
cool, so I guess that means they'd have no problem being approved for use in any conversion then?

Rafael at 14:05, Sep 11:
The seats are certified but the installation will have to meet certain standards as well.
As far as the installation, I cannot give you any advice on how to do it, it's completely up to the installer to install the seats properly

Cormac at 14:06, Sep 11:
ah I understand, thanks! Finally, is it possible to arrange for international shipping? To Ireland specifically... or to the UK even?
I'd potentially be looking to buy 3

Rafael at 14:07, Sep 11:
Yes we can ship internationally
Please know these are big heavy seats so the shipping will not be inexpensive

Cormac at 14:08, Sep 11:
yeah, I'm guessing they are about 40kg each?

Rafael at 14:09, Sep 11:
It's more than that, a little over a 100 lbs

Cormac at 14:11, Sep 11:
so maybe 150kg max shipping weight? Any idea what that would cost and do you ship by sea?

Rafael at 14:12, Sep 11:
Unfortunately I cannot give you an estimate without your full shipping address

Cormac at 14:13, Sep 11:
The shipping address will be:
******

Rafael at 14:15, Sep 11:
Ok great, this is for 3 seats of the first seat you sent over to me correct?

Cormac at 14:25, Sep 11:
yep
Item Code:FR-0248 Price Range: $650.00#
do you think there'd be any issues with these for motorway driving since they don't have head rests? Yep, that's the correct email address

Rafael at 14:28, Sep 11:
As previously stated these seats are FMVSS certified, we sell these particular seats all the time with no headrests

Cormac at 14:34, Sep 11:
ok, thanks a lot! I'll await your email, thanks for the help

kadman

If you are not sure of the terminology on the different departments that will rule, yay or nay
on your project, I think it would be wise to familiarize these things at the outset before you
make any more input on your design criteria.

Little point either in considering what may be acceptable in any other country apart from Ireland
and the EU.

I think you are getting too much info from everywhere, bar the experts you should be talking to

Good luck with your project..........:)

Alkers

Dot is dept. of transport but meaningless in Ireland

cormie

Thanks guys, I spoke to Vanderlust in Clare before seeing your replies and what he said reflects what you guys are saying. He basically said any certification for something outside the EU won't really mean anything here. I'm not sure if that means they can't be used at all, or what though?

He said they get their seats from https://www.scopema.com/langGB/accueil.php in France, but there's nothing there similar to what I want unfortunately, so I'll try keep my research within the EU

He also said you need 2 windows in the back and they need to be on either side, he said doing the sliding door and the opposite panel would be enough and that'd be 650 including vat for 2 privacy windows, then if you want them with openings it'd be about another 200 on top.


EDIT: just putting this here to have a read of later when I have time :
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057292579

CJhaughey

I have thought about this and tbh the easiest way would be to install tracking and moveable seats, they won't fold up and sideways but you will be able to move them whereever you want within reason.
https://www.nmisafety.com/

Del2005

cormie wrote: »

Thanks guys, I spoke to Vanderlust in Clare before seeing your replies and what he said reflects what you guys are saying. He basically said any certification for something outside the EU won't really mean anything here. I'm not sure if that means they can't be used at all, or what though?

If they aren't CE certified then they won't be allowed to be used in the EU, you won't get your camper conversion signed off and will struggle with insurance is they look for certs. If you fit them and anything happens then you'd be liable and possibly open to prosecution.

elperello

cormie wrote: »

Thanks for that. Ah, so getting insurance as a camper without the walkway might prove difficult.. Hmmm.. To be honest, I haven't even looked into the cost of camper tax or insurance. I recall the tax is cheap, but commercial is affordable enough on this van @ €333 per year anyway, if camper is cheaper than that, then brilliant.

Insurance wise, I haven't a clue what the difference in price will be, so maybe it won't make too much difference, just as long as it can still be used with the passenger seats and to sleep in and live out of and there's no issues doing this on a commercial policy?

It's an interesting thread and I wish you all the best with the project.

Just to point out that you won't be able to get the €333 tax without signing a form witnessed by a Garda stating that you will only use the van for business. There will be other documentation required which varies from one local authority to another. Best check with your LA.

kadman

elperello wrote: »

It's an interesting thread and I wish you all the best with the project.

Just to point out that you won't be able to get the €333 tax without signing a form witnessed by a Garda stating that you will only use the van for business. There will be other documentation required which varies from one local authority to another. Best check with your LA.

That will be an interesting conversation with a camper vehicle, both with Mr Policeman and INS. Too many headaches.

cormie

Maybe I'll start a new camping tour business hahaha transport folk around, f*ck them out to fend for themselves in tents and I'll have the van to myself :pac:

CJhaughey, I was looking into miinibuses originally to convert from since they had the seats already, but once I saw the folding ones, I decided I didn't need the regular seats and could just use them, having not realised how complicated it would be.

Wall to bench to bed is still preference of course. I might post around a few EU camper forums or get in touch with some seat manufacturers and see if they have anything similar in stock.

Still surprised there's nothing out there that does what I described, I'd say they'd have good potential to sell well in the camper world.

cormie

I found this add, €150 for 8 quick release seats. I only need 6, but it seems like a good deal:
https://www.donedeal.ie/campers-for-sale/camper-seats-crew-cab-minibus-seats/18500736

I'd just need to get the floor tracked then?


There's also this 3 seat fold up one too:
https://www.donedeal.ie/caraccessories-for-sale/3-seater-folding-seat/18603239

But, how does buying 2nd hand seats work? If the seats themselves need to be approved, then how do you know they are suitable for application and will pass inspection? Can seats without any identifying marks pass inspection, just based on how sturdy they "seem" to the inspector? If they've come from a minibus, then they are most likely fine, but how do I know the minibus makers used the correct seats in the first place?

Found these guys too:
http://www.eliteseating.co.uk/

but there's no mention of any certifications etc.


How could I know if any of these seats would be suitable for road use, I don't want to just buy some random seats that design wise look like they will suit, only to find out they aren't legal.

Alkers

You'll probably have to engage with an sqi at this stage before you purchase anything, preferably the one you're going to use to certify the conversion eventually

kadman

Simona1986 wrote: »

You'll probably have to engage with an sqi at this stage before you purchase anything, preferably the one you're going to use to certify the conversion eventually

I think that advice was offered many posts ago, but seems to have been ignored, as I dont see any reference to conversations with relevent experts in the field.

I wouldn,t like to see it go financially pear shaped.

cormie

I'm going to get on that tomorrow hopefully and ring around a few places.

I think the best thing, as suggested here, is just try find a SQI who can advise me exactly what is and isn't possible and go from there. Was just getting carried away looking up seats etc in the mean time when all these conversion places are closed in the evening and night time

There's a fair few options to try on a Google search for "sqi camper conversion".

I'll be trying this lot tomorrow:

http://www.leinstermotorassessors.ie/
http://www.maynoothmotorhomes.ie
http://motorcaravanclub.com/
https://abcmotorengineers.ie/sqi-reports
https://atecea.ie/our-network-of-engineers/
http://happycampers.ie/

For now, I'd just like someone to go through the plan with me and be able to advise me on what exactly would be needed to satisfy it for passenger safety and insurance etc.

elperello

cormie wrote: »

I'm going to get on that tomorrow hopefully and ring around a few places.

I think the best thing, as suggested here, is just try find a SQI who can advise me exactly what is and isn't possible and go from there. Was just getting carried away looking up seats etc in the mean time when all these conversion places are closed in the evening and night time

There's a fair few options to try on a Google search for "sqi camper conversion".

I'll be trying this lot tomorrow:

http://www.leinstermotorassessors.ie/
http://www.maynoothmotorhomes.ie
http://motorcaravanclub.com/
https://abcmotorengineers.ie/sqi-reports
https://atecea.ie/our-network-of-engineers/
http://happycampers.ie/

For now, I'd just like someone to go through the plan with me and be able to advise me on what exactly would be needed to satisfy it for passenger safety and insurance etc.

Now you are sucking diesel

cormie

So I spoke to some helpful folk today and have gotten the following feedback:

The SQI inspectors work off safety and adhering to revenue guidelines as opposed to what an insurer may or may not approve.

Firstly with regards buying seats, it will get approval from a SQI inspector as long as the mounting points have been adequately reinforced and as long as the manufacturer, CE # and possibly the manufacture date are visible on a plate on each seat. Belts must be an integral part of the seat and not separate and there must be a head rest, so the backrest can just go to shoulder height. Everything else seemed straight forward enough in terms of having an affixed sink, cooker etc

2 or 3 sources said there must be windows on each side and windows on the back door aren't sufficient, another said as long as there's a light source, either windows or skylight, it's ok.

One guy informed me of something I wasn't aware of that could potentially end up costing a lot... that as the van is now a panel van, which would have only had €200 VRT paid on it, that when converted to a camper, I'll need to pay 13.3% of the then current market rate for a camper of that make and year, based off the average sale price and that even if paid less than €10,000 for the van, if the average price of a 2013 Sprinter Camper is 20,000, I'll need to pay 13.3% = €2,660, minus €200 VRT already paid, so €2,460... and that I can only appeal the charge AFTER I've paid

In terms of insurance. The guy from http://motorcaravanclub.com didn't seem too happy about the idea and was saying that it sounds like a minibus, not a camper and that the most seats you'd really see in a camper would be 5 or 6. They have a group insurance scheme through Allianz.

With regards a walkway, the SQI guys were saying there's no need from revenue's perspective, but Dolmen was saying they require this, that the driver must be able to access the rear from the front and have nothing such as sinks etc blocking the way, so it seems putting a 3 seat bench behind the front 3 seats will jeopardise this.

I was asking what about putting a swivel driver seat in and was told this may be ok, even though the driver may have to hunker up their feet to be able to swivel the chair around. Photos are requested to be sent in before insurance is granted so I don't want to end up finding out this isn't sufficient once done.

Dolmen are going to get back to me with details as to whether or not they have any restrictions with how many passenger seats can be in a camper. They also require minimum internal height of 1.8m, which is fine for mine

They deal I think exclusively with Axa and you can see more info here:
https://www.dolmen-insurance.ie/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/Camper-Scheme-Total-Package-NB-2018-RoI-22.06.18.pdf

That VRT charge could really mess things up. I don't plan on havinga luxury, lush camper by any means, just something functional, so to think VRT may be based off professional, expensive conversion costs is worrying.

Now I'm wondering would I be better off just making it a minibus or crewcab and install the cooker/sink etc but pay minibus/crew cab tax and insurance. Will wait and hear back from Dolmen with to see if there's any restrictions on seats etc I guess.

cormie

Ok, good news, rang Stuarts Insurance in Stillorgan and was told there's no need for a walkway and that as long as the rest of the revenue requirements are met in terms of it being classed a camper, that there should be no prob getting the insurance. I'd still need to send photos etc, but it didn't sound like it'd be a problem at all

Criteria:
full eu license, engineers report, 1.8m height, sink, 2 ring cooker, no walkway needed

Through Aviva ,
open drive for myself and any family member over 25 with full license: 415

Myself and named drivers (can switch named drivers as required) - 335.


So it's looking like it could be a goer now!

I rang parfit for a quote on getting a tracked floor fitted and reinforced, but they are closed until Monday.

Alkers

cormie wrote:

The SQI inspectors work off safety and adhering to revenue guidelines as opposed to what an insurer may or may not approve.

I think if you have an sqi certified conversion and meet the insurers individual requirements, the insurance won't be concerned with the seats, maybe except for the number of them as you're researching.

8 seat Mazda bongo - much easier!

kadman

Panel van VRT to camper vrt is going to be the painful part