Abolish the Dole

dxhound2005

dxhound2005 wrote: »

I don't think it's them. They are the ones paying out 20 billion of taxpayers money a year in Social Welfare.

Which one then? I don't pay much attention to Irish politics.

dxhound2005

Deleted User wrote: »

Which one then? I don't pay much attention to Irish politics.

None of them.

Riskymove

dxhound2005 wrote: »

None of them.

FG pushed a "welfare fraud" cheats us all campaign

not "welfare."

Captcha

Lollipops23 wrote: »

My OH has recently had to sign on after being made redundant. He has no plan to stay sitting on it for long; he already has interviews lined up.

You think he should be made "exist" on food stamps for the foreseeable? Why? He's paid into the system since he was 16. Why would you want to make him suffer even more than he already is? He wants to work. He likes work.

A better system would be:

If lost job then for 6 months dole should be 75% of what you earned in the job.

6 months onward reduce to 50%

9 months onward reduce to 25%

12 months or more drop to the standard which should be no more than €150

rob316

Try_harder wrote: »

Indefinitely or for how long?

Sliding scale. After 6 months back to normal rate

Cordell

OP, if on your P60 is any less that 150K you will not fare better in the US, so stop whinging.

Captcha

Captcha wrote: »

Lollipops23 wrote: »

My OH has recently had to sign on after being made redundant. He has no plan to stay sitting on it for long; he already has interviews lined up.

You think he should be made "exist" on food stamps for the foreseeable? Why? He's paid into the system since he was 16. Why would you want to make him suffer even more than he already is? He wants to work. He likes work.

A better system would be:

If lost job then for 6 months dole should be 75% of what you earned in the job.

6 months onward reduce to 50%

9 months onward reduce to 25%

12 months or more drop to the standard which should be no more than €150

The system is already a bit like this afaik. If a person has been in a job for so many years, and has paid their 'stamps', then they will be entitled to a tax rebate on-top of their dole payment. In some cases this will bring the person's weekly dole payment up to almost what they were receiving in wages while they were working. 

How long this lasts depends on how long they have been paying stamps while they were working.

Eventually it drops down to the basic dole payment of  €188  (?)

I see both sides to the argument on this subject. I think that the dole should not be indefinite. I know people who have been signing on for the last 25+ years. It is a disincentive for some people to try and better themselves.

Also, the welfare system is being scammed left, right and centre in Ireland.

dxhound2005

Deleted User wrote: »

Also, the welfare system is being scammed left, right and centre in Ireland.

According to news reports at the time of the controversy about the fraud campaign it is about 2%. 0.6% deliberate fraud and 1.4% due to Dept SW errors. I think you make it sound much larger.

Wheeliebin30

dxhound2005 wrote: »

According to news reports at the time of the controversy about the fraud campaign it is about 2%. 0.6% deliberate fraud and 1.4% due to Dept SW errors. I think you make it sound much larger.

That’s people who were only caught!!

Wake up and don’t be so naive.

dxhound2005

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

That’s people who were only caught!!

Wake up and don’t be so naive.

Report the ones you know are doing it. Lots of people are reporting them.

https://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/?id=2017-05-02a.1437

Sardonicat

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Deleted User wrote: »

Fine Gael? Was it them and Varadker pushing that welfare cheats us all thing?

I don't think it's them. They are the ones paying out 20 billion of taxpayers money a year in Social Welfare.

OK

€20 million social welfare does NOT mean €20 million in dole

It is not entirely made up from General Taxation. We have a 2 strand system. Some payments are funded out of PRSI contributions. Any State payment classed as "benefit" is funded by this source, eg. Unemployment Benefit, Disability Benefit, Carers Benefit etc. Also the Contributory State Pension. Contingency for eligibility is dependent on the number of continual PRSI contributions made over a set period. The number and period can change depending on the Government of the day.

Any payment classed as "Allowance" is funded through General Taxation eg, Jobseekers Allowance, Carers Allowance Disability Allowance etc. Contingency for eligibility is determined through a Means Test at a minimum and other strict conditions for payments such as Carers. The amount of means you are allowed and other conditions are also subject to change dependent on current Government policy.

Other welfare payments funded through General Taxation also include Child Benefit (the only "benefit" to be funded this way) and FIS.

So pretty much everybody in the country recieves, has received or will receive some of that €20 million whether that's through Child Benefit or their Old Age Pension.

What do you think of thone working and claiming FIS who can fritter up to €200 a month on fags and booze? I know a few like this and they're the first to start on the moan about how their tax is funding welfare scroungers but they are essentially using the state to make up the shortfall for utilities etc that they could well afford if they didn't pish they're money away.

Wheeliebin30

Sardonicat wrote: »

OK

€20 million social welfare does NOT mean €20 million in dole

It is not entirely made up from General Taxation. We have a 2 strand system. Some payments are funded out of PRSI contributions. Any State payment classed as "benefit" is funded by this source, eg. Unemployment Benefit, Disability Benefit, Carers Benefit etc. Also the Contributory State Pension. Contingency for eligibility is dependent on the number of continual PRSI contributions made over a set period. The number and period can change depending on the Government of the day.

Any payment classed as "Allowance" is funded through General Taxation eg, Jobseekers Allowance, Carers Allowance Disability Allowance etc. Contingency for eligibility is determined through a Means Test at a minimum and other strict conditions for payments such as Carers. The amount of means you are allowed and other conditions are also subject to change dependent on current Government policy.

Other welfare payments funded through General Taxation also include Child Benefit (the only "benefit" to be funded this way) and FIS.

So pretty much everybody in the country recieves, has received or will receive some of that €20 million whether that's through Child Benefit or their Old Age Pension.

What do you think of thone working and claiming FIS who can fritter up to €200 a month on fags and booze? I know a few like this and they're the first to start on the moan about how their tax is funding welfare scroungers but they are essentially using the state to make up the shortfall for utilities etc that they could well afford if they didn't pish they're money away.

Billion not million!!!

Lollipops23

Deleted User wrote: »

The system is already a bit like this afaik. If a person has been in a job for so many years, and has paid their 'stamps', then they will be entitled to a tax rebate on-top of their dole payment. In some cases this will bring the person's weekly dole payment up to almost what they were receiving in wages while they were working. 

That may be, but my OH has gone from earning approx 750 a week to 198 a week. He didn't get anything from his job as he was only with them 9months so no statutory redundancy pay for him.

Sardonicat

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

Sardonicat wrote: »

OK

€20 million social welfare does NOT mean €20 million in dole

It is not entirely made up from General Taxation. We have a 2 strand system. Some payments are funded out of PRSI contributions. Any State payment classed as "benefit" is funded by this source, eg. Unemployment Benefit, Disability Benefit, Carers Benefit etc. Also the Contributory State Pension. Contingency for eligibility is dependent on the number of continual PRSI contributions made over a set period. The number and period can change depending on the Government of the day.

Any payment classed as "Allowance" is funded through General Taxation eg, Jobseekers Allowance, Carers Allowance Disability Allowance etc. Contingency for eligibility is determined through a Means Test at a minimum and other strict conditions for payments such as Carers. The amount of means you are allowed and other conditions are also subject to change dependent on current Government policy.

Other welfare payments funded through General Taxation also include Child Benefit (the only "benefit" to be funded this way) and FIS.

So pretty much everybody in the country recieves, has received or will receive some of that €20 million whether that's through Child Benefit or their Old Age Pension.

What do you think of thone working and claiming FIS who can fritter up to €200 a month on fags and booze? I know a few like this and they're the first to start on the moan about how their tax is funding welfare scroungers but they are essentially using the state to make up the shortfall for utilities etc that they could well afford if they didn't pish they're money away.

Billion not million!!!

Seriously, that's what you took from my post?A smart phone typo ?
Embrace that rage, friend. It won't keep you warm at night but it's clearly all you've got.

dxhound2005

Sardonicat wrote: »

Seriously, that's what you took from my post?A smart phone typo ?
Embrace that rage, friend. It won't keep you warm at night but it's clearly all you've got.

And you somehow took from my post that 20 billion Social Welfare equals all dole?

Gazzmonkey

John from Carlow wrote: »

I believe the Irish government should cut social welfare payments drastically and implement a food stamp program similar to the one currently running in the USA. This would allow the government to free up cash to reduce borrowing and reduce the tax burden on the middle classes. It sickens me that people like Margaret Cash have the money for Sky digital subscriptions, shopping trips to Newry and computers with internet connections to post their drivel on Facebook. It has got to the stage were these people genuinely believe they deserve a reasonable middle-ish class lifestyle at the expense of the state. This may seem harsh to some but it is only fair that people that don't work live in abject poverty and are subjected to all the ills that such a lifestyle predisposes them to. I feel genuine rage that I am paying for other people's way through life; it makes me feel genuinely ill. At the moment the only viable alternative is to move to the US, a country where hard work is rewarded and the likes of Margaret Cash are left were they belong - in the gutter.

Here here, well said

Old joke:
what is green and you can drink it in half an hour?
Northern Ireland dole giro.

dxhound2005

A very close knit community where everyone knows everyone's business.

Irish Guitarist

Finally! A dole thread. I thought I'd never see one here.

dxhound2005

That would be the biggest downside of abolition. No more dole threads.

Doctor Jimbob

Sardonicat wrote: »

Seriously, that's what you took from my post?A smart phone typo ?
Embrace that rage, friend. It won't keep you warm at night but it's clearly all you've got.

I wouldn't bother. People always point this out in the weekly dole thread but no matter what people keep coming back ranting about how their 20 billion in tax money is going to the unemployed.

trashcan

dxhound2005 wrote: »

That would be the biggest downside of abolition. No more dole threads.

Indeed, where would all that pent up rage find a home ?

greendom

I don't have any issue with social welfare payments being made to those who can't look after themselves even if there are some fraudulent claims in there. These would amount to far less to money lost in tax evasion for example.

I think it's a great credit to the country. Compare that to the US where going sick can make you bankkrupt. Horrific and completely unjustified in a wealthy country.

FishOnABike

[Deleted User] wrote: »

The system is already a bit like this afaik. If a person has been in a job for so many years, and has paid their 'stamps', then they will be entitled to a tax rebate on-top of their dole payment. In some cases this will bring the person's weekly dole payment up to almost what they were receiving in wages while they were working. 

How long this lasts depends on how long they have been paying stamps while they were working.

Eventually it drops down to the basic dole payment of  €188  (?)

Jobseekers Benefit or Assistance has not been pay related in a long time.

A person who is made unemployed and has sufficient social insurance (stamps) paid qualifies for a non-means tested Jobseekers Benefit payment for up to 9 months.

If the person does not have sufficient social insurance payments or has reached the end if the 9 months Jobseekers Benefit payment they are eligible to be assessed for a means tested Jobseekers Assistance payment. The household income is taken into account in assessing the eligibility and amount of Jobseekers Assistance.

Any potential refund of tax overpaid is separate to Jobseekers Benefit /Assistance payment and is a result of applying the full years tax allowances to the part of the year the person was paid. It can only be claimed for the relevant tax year. If a person became unemployed towards the end of the year there would be little tax overpayment to be reclaimed.

rossie1977

Food stamp program in the US is a disaster.

Millions are homeless, crime even in rural communities is rife.

Do we want this in Ireland

rob316

Food stamps is a horrible idea, you think the homeless situation is bad now?

You'd literally turn the most disadvantaged areas into Ghettos overnight. Crime would go through the roof.

Yes the SW system is perceived as generous and it's been abused but America's system is nothing to be aspiring to. The poor and rich divide is colossal.

xckjoo

rob316 wrote: »

Food stamps is a horrible idea, you think the homeless situation is bad now?

You'd literally turn the most disadvantaged areas into Ghettos overnight. Crime would go through the roof.

Yes the SW system is perceived as generous and it's been abused but America's system is nothing to be aspiring to. The poor and rich divide is colossal.

Everyone thinks they'd be one of the rich. Yet strangely they're not rich now. Must be all those scroungers holding them back somehow

fxotoole

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I don't pay much attention to Irish politics.

That’s blatantly obvious, by the look of some of your posts

JupiterKid

This thread was bound to happen - because everyone on social welfare is a dirty scrounger sponging off us good decent hard working taxpayers, like ya know....

FFS!! :rolleyes:

fxotoole

JupiterKid wrote: »

This thread was bound to happen - because everyone on social welfare is a dirty scrounger sponging off us good decent hard working taxpayers, like ya know....

FFS!! :rolleyes:

There’s a thread like this at least twice a day on after hours

CerebralCortex

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

Who provide thousands of well paid jobs.

Its up to the Government to close any tax loopholes that might exist, if they took their eye off the ball thats not the companies issue to sort out.

That's the point tho. Governments won't.

CerebralCortex

JupiterKid wrote: »

This thread was bound to happen - because everyone on social welfare is a dirty scrounger sponging off us good decent hard working taxpayers, like ya know....

FFS!! :rolleyes:

I'm a professional in IT and I've needed SWelfare, and I've been treated like an absolute criminal in INTREO for asking for it. Do not get rid of social welfare. You don't know when you may fall on hard times. OP should exercise some empathy for those born into poverty in Ireland. If he thinks scumbags are a menace now, wait until they have no SW cash.

Carsanal

Yes!

CerebralCortex

CerebralCortex wrote: »

I'm a professional in IT and I've needed SWelfare, and I've been treated like an absolute criminal in INTREO for asking for it. Do not get rid of social welfare. You don't know when you may fall on hard times. OP should exercise some empathy for those born into poverty in Ireland. If he thinks scumbags are a menace now, wait until they have no SW cash.

We should be looking into having a UBI (universal Basic Income) to "decriminalise" unemployment. The savings in simply providing such income to all citizens, instead of a web of benefits would be quite substantial.


With a simplified system, fraud will be easier to detect, and anyone can take low paid work without losing out.

Pauliedragon

The Irish government would find a way to blow the whole lot anyway so what's the point.

PistolsAtDawn

Try_harder wrote: »

Some people really want to condemn innocent children to poverty dont they

It's the social welfare lifestyle these innocent childern's parents are exploiting which will result in the same innocent children growing up to become spongers for their lifetime (save for a few of course)

CerebralCortex

PistolsAtDawn wrote: »

It's the social welfare lifestyle these innocent childern's parents are exploiting which will result in the same innocent children growing up to become spongers for their lifetime (save for a few of course)

That's not an argument against social welfare.

thelibertyboy

One thing in relation to this that pisses me off is people that dont use it correctly and just have kids to get it and free homes.
My own personal experience in the past has been while in college studying to get my degree i was working in a nightclub at the time and living at home. i had to move out of home i went into the citizens information and told them and said i cant do the nightclub work and goto college because getting home at 3am and going to college at 9am every morning was just not doable and also i need to make money to keep my self out of the streets. something had to give and her words to me was to leave college and leave my job and give it a few months and they could find me a "course" not realizing i was studying a specific degree for a reason i wasnt just looking to get a "course" in a lot of ways this country is amazing, but when it comes to social welfare its so backwards i was trying to better myselfand alot of people i know are on or went on the dole straight after school and were out every night and hadnt got a stress in life me i was the opposite. just my 2 cents. i dont think we should goto the food stamps systems because the divide in country like the states is ridiculous! i think we should reward the deserving that need it not just give it out to everyone and not check and keep checking are they looking for employment etc.

Lux23

So sick of threads like this - be careful what you wish for because you might find yourself on the dole (or food stamps) one day.

fleet_admiral

P_1 wrote: »

It should be a safety net for when you fall on hard times after you pay into the system not a way of life.

Completely agree, I was out of work for 3 weeks in April for the first time in donkeys years. I felt embarrassed signing on but the woman in the dole office was very helpful telling me `this is what youve paid tax for years for`.

BorneTobyWilde

I think everyone should get the same wage, from a banker to a person who packs shelves. Everyone should be equal, but everyone should work.
Instead of the banker getting 5k a week he should get 1k and 4 shelf packers who actually work harder than he ever will should get 1k a week also.
All five can lead a great lifestyle.

Graces7

dxhound2005 wrote: »

I would stop all those pensioners heading off on exotic foreign holidays on their Social Welfare money. They get a lot more than the people on the dole. Make them spend the money at home.

Excuse me.. I just choked on my banana! I am a pensioner and have not had any kind of holiday for ?? 20 years? Maybe those on private pensions they have worked for?

Glenalla

P_1 wrote: »

It should be a safety net for when you fall on hard times after you pay into the system not a way of life.

I fully agree. My wife has three siblings, 2 of which have opted for a life on the dole and have stated they will never work.

HoboJoe

I live in an area where a bunch of my neighbors retired at 18. The thing is that most Irish people (I am Irish) who vote would destroy a govt that reduced welfare, let alone abolish it.



Each party on election year is basically promising to outspend the other. With the EU in place and free movement of labour (it's a necessity that we are a member imo) it is not possible to establish some fanciful politics where we invest in jobs and not welfare and also lower taxes. I should note that I am married to a "foreigner" and that I have no problem with people moving to work in other countries to better their livelihood.


It is disheartening to work for years to buy the only home that we could afford to find people getting these things for 'whatever you can afford to pay' because they choose to not work and play the game.



What can be done I ask, I can't find anyone or any party to vote for. Maybe it's the PR system or the fact that most people are happy to pay a crazy amount into the PRSI system to get a free tooth cleaning and maternity leave

Ush1

[Deleted User] wrote: »

We should be looking into having a UBI (universal Basic Income) to "decriminalise" unemployment. The savings in simply providing such income to all citizens, instead of a web of benefits would be quite substantial.


With a simplified system, fraud will be easier to detect, and anyone can take low paid work without losing out.

Have you done the maths on these savings? How much income are you looking to give everyone?

dxhound2005

Graces7 wrote: »

Excuse me.. I just choked on my banana! I am a pensioner and have not had any kind of holiday for ?? 20 years? Maybe those on private pensions they have worked for?

I haven't had any kind of holiday for 40 years.

Ush1

Ush1 wrote: »

Have you done the maths on these savings? How much income are you looking to give everyone?

Have you looked at the distribution of wealth recently, the amount of income that floats to the top. There is more than enough there to pay everyone a basic income and still leave the rich, well, rich.

HoboJoe

CerebralCortex wrote: »

I'm a professional in IT and I've needed SWelfare, and I've been treated like an absolute criminal in INTREO for asking for it. Do not get rid of social welfare. You don't know when you may fall on hard times. OP should exercise some empathy for those born into poverty in Ireland. If he thinks scumbags are a menace now, wait until they have no SW cash.

I hear you! Short term genuine cases can be bullied and demeaned. You need to apparently become an untouchable by being at it for a few years. Incentives are offered for more that 12 months of service, namely fuel allowance and an extra 20 euro week to do a course. Some of the actually useful courses are only available to those with more that 12 months of service.

You would need another few years in service to move up the housing list as if it is a loyalty scheme. By this stage you are probably better off having a few kids and settling into the life. Bettering yourself by doing courses on your own dime and buying job interview clothes is merely setting you back.



If you are in IT, don't work for less that 30k. Unless it is a means to an end, it is not worth it in my experience.

Billy86

Deleted User wrote: »

We should be looking into having a UBI (universal Basic Income) to "decriminalise" unemployment. The savings in simply providing such income to all citizens, instead of a web of benefits would be quite substantial.


With a simplified system, fraud will be easier to detect, and anyone can take low paid work without losing out.

Have to agree with this, and it's only going to become more prevalent with increased automation. Other roles will appear sure, but it's happening either way so there's no point moaning about it, and a lot of people are going to be 'left behind' without correct provisions in place ahead of time.

4068ac1elhodqr

UBI will become a neccessity before too long.

Across the water the TUC hinted at it, but more-so tore apart the rising gig-economy.
Due to the rise of automation he (McDon') suggests the 4-day working week could become the norm, sweet.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-45479544

Pres Higgs also warned a few months ago about the gig-economy,
specifically the lack of worker's rights.

If the super-rich like Bono and the $tr MNC's paid their tax there'd be enough in the pot to go around.