Mixed ability LC maths

Shaungoater

So our principal has told us our LC maths class in 5th year is now mixed ability and we are team teaching. So in our class we have foundation ordinary and higher. Is there anything that can be done about this or documents that show how crazy this is?

evolving_doors

Can the topics move at the exact same pace for the 3 levels!
If not then its not mixed ability.

r93kaey5p2izun

What a completely stupid decision. Clearly made by some out of touch idiot. The courses are too different. They might as well ask you to teach Maths and French in the same class.

skippy1977

Shaungoater wrote: »

So our principal has told us our LC maths class in 5th year is now mixed ability and we are team teaching. So in our class we have foundation ordinary and higher. Is there anything that can be done about this or documents that show how crazy this is?

That's bananas! I cannot see how teaching Higher Level and Ordinary Level in the one room can work at all (specifically for HL Maths at LC level, can't comment on anything else as I have no experience of it). There is large sections of the 5th Year course that will be totally irrelevant to the Ordinary students such as Integration, Proof By Induction, Geometric Series, Financial Maths, more than half of the Complex Numbers course...etc etc.

To my mind if both teachers are qualified it would make far more sense to let one of them take the Ordinary and Foundation class elsewhere for tuition! I can see an argument that they could be put together as both courses are very manageable to complete and revise within the 2 years.

Most years I would be at the pin of my collar to adequately complete the HL course as is...and that would be without the distraction of different levels in the same room.

We have introduced some team teaching in our school this year (on the recommendation of inspectors) and whilst I can see the merits of it for some of the younger years where we don't stream I think it seems like a tick the box exercise by the school to ensure that differentiated learning is taking place and all students needs are catered for.

That's all well and good until all of the HL students in the class have to go and get grinds (the culture of grinds in Maths is at a very scary level already).

In terms of pointing out any reports I couldn't help there but a dose of cop on by management would do the trick! How many classes are there in 5th year? Is this taking place in all of the classes?

happywithlife

Shaungoater wrote: »

So our principal has told us our LC maths class in 5th year is now mixed ability and we are team teaching. So in our class we have foundation ordinary and higher. Is there anything that can be done about this or documents that show how crazy this is?

happening in our place too and down a maths class with that teacher allocated as a floater between the other two for team teaching. Not going well and the higher level are already complaining of the discipline issues by the weakest ones. Seems to be this new model of SEN is to blame?

rainbowtrout

Is this in a small school where there is only one fifth year class?

doc_17

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Is this in a small school where there is only one fifth year class?

There are two teacher allocated to it though so it must not be. Maybe it’s a discipline thing OP?

Ring the inspectorate and ask them out for a visit. I bet it’ll change then. In the meantime, relax. The absolute carnage that will arise from this won’t be your fault.

rainbowtrout

doc_17 wrote: »

There are two teacher allocated to it though so it must not be. Maybe it’s a discipline thing OP?

Ring the inspectorate and ask them out for a visit. I bet it’ll change then. In the meantime, relax. The absolute carnage that will arise from this won’t be your fault.

Well the OP said it was now mixed ability. What was it previous to this?

skippy1977

doc_17 wrote: »

There are two teacher allocated to it though so it must not be. Maybe it’s a discipline thing OP?

Ring the inspectorate and ask them out for a visit. I bet it’ll change then. In the meantime, relax. The absolute carnage that will arise from this won’t be your fault.

It's the inspectorate's fault....they are the ones pushing for this!

spurious

It probably seemed like a good idea to someone educated in the 70s or 80s, where mixed ability (in their experience) meant someone who would get 5 HL Honours in the Leaving in the same class as someone who would get 4 HL Honours. Not Johnny who in the 70s left school at 14 and had struggled with division and multiplication in with Jimmy who will get an A in HL LC Maths.

Call in the Inspectors and ask them to take the class.

mirrorwall14

All three syllabi? Honestly that’s completely and utterly insane. I can’t see how anyone could teach that

evolving_doors

happywithlife wrote: »

happening in our place too and down a maths class with that teacher allocated as a floater between the other two for team teaching. Not going well and the higher level are already complaining of the discipline issues by the weakest ones. Seems to be this new model of SEN is to blame?

Nail on the head methinks

This is my take so please correct if I'm barking up the wrong tree

So: Previously schools had 're-appropriated' teachers a teaching position out of the learning support allocation (claiming that they were doing in-class support!! or some such). Teachers often didn't even know their job was not 'maths teacher', but was actually a full time learning support.
Thus, they carried on with 2 seperate classses, like in the OP's case above; 1 ordinary, 1 higher level , 2 seperate teachers ; both thinking they were regular paid out of the school PTR quota etc. But 1 teacher actually paid out of Learning Support ... 'ex-quota' I think is the term.

Now with the changes the dept. says you can't do that

The additional Teaching Resources which are being provided under this model cannot be used for mainstream class teaching, or to reduce the pupil teacher ratio in mainstream classes, or to provide additional subjects for pupils who do not have special educational needs.Circular No 0014/2017 Page 20

So now Principals are looking at the recommendations within the same circular. The only way they can justify that teacher as having/keeping their post is...

15. Type of Teaching provided
Additional Teaching support can be provided in a variety of ways. The special educational needs teacher might work in the classroom with the class teacher or withdraw students in small groups and/or individually for a period of time (depending upon the nature of students needs) for intensive teaching of key skills.
The range of teaching supports should include team-teaching, small group teaching and, where
necessary, individualised teaching to address specific learning needs. Page 18

Am I close?

In fairness though the department has been giving schools the hint, up and down the country in their WSE's etc asking schools if they had 'considered team teaching'. Quite a good few posters on here (and other forums) said they were thrown into it without any warning in September.

It's not really the fault of the new SEN model. Those teaching jobs were always meant for the benefit of SEN students and not having hours lumped together to create an extra teacher for regular classes.

r93kaey5p2izun

In fairness to the inspectorate we had glowing MLL, JCSP, DEIS and Maths inspection reports with no team teaching and all core subjects streamed from 2nd Year. Once all students had access to all levels through banding they were happy. They even suggested streaming HL Maths out at Christmas of 1st Year.

Shaungoater

No has never been mixed ability elsewhere and there are two LC maths fifth year classes. It's happening across fifty years. We would also be a DEIS school and it's principals third year. She actually came from the inspectorate!

r93kaey5p2izun

Is she a Maths inspector? Sounds like someone who teaches another subject with minimal difference between the syllabus content for different levels and is either ignorant or stupid in thinking the same applies to Maths. There is so little in common between FL and HL they may as well be different subjects entirely.

evolving_doors

If they're not going to listen to the Teacher then the only other hope is if parents kick up a stink.
2 teachers + one class of Foundation, Ordinary & Higher = Crazy

man_no_plan

evolving_doors wrote: »

[/B]

Nail on the head methinks

This is my take so please correct if I'm barking up the wrong tree

So: Previously schools had 're-appropriated' teachers a teaching position out of the learning support allocation (claiming that they were doing in-class support!! or some such). Teachers often didn't even know their job was not 'maths teacher', but was actually a full time learning support.
Thus, they carried on with 2 seperate classses, like in the OP's case above; 1 ordinary, 1 higher level , 2 seperate teachers ; both thinking they were regular paid out of the school PTR quota etc. But 1 teacher actually paid out of Learning Support ... 'ex-quota' I think is the term.

Now with the changes the dept. says you can't do that




So now Principals are looking at the recommendations within the same circular. The only way they can justify that teacher as having/keeping their post is...






Am I close?

In fairness though the department has been giving schools the hint, up and down the country in their WSE's etc asking schools if they had 'considered team teaching'. Quite a good few posters on here (and other forums) said they were thrown into it without any warning in September.

It's not really the fault of the new SEN model. Those teaching jobs were always meant for the benefit of SEN students and not having hours lumped together to create an extra teacher for regular classes.

I wouldn't think so.

You couldn't argue against a small foundation level class. That's small group teaching.

If there's only one class I'm thinking less than 30 students in 5th year? Maybe the thinking is you justify the small honours and packed ol/FL class.

Did you ask what the thinking was OP?

As for reappropriation of teachers, there's probably very few full time SEN teachers. Most teachers are employed as teachers of their subjects, you have to be unless qualified in SEN, and then move into SEN.

Learning support is at broad as it is tall. Small group teaching as in a very small English or maths or geography class with a target group of children is different to having two HL class of ten each.

Shaungoater

man_no_plan wrote: »

I wouldn't think so.

You couldn't argue against a small foundation level class. That's small group teaching.

If there's only one class I'm thinking less than 30 students in 5th year? Maybe the thinking is you justify the small honours and packed ol/FL class.

Did you ask what the thinking was OP?

As for reappropriation of teachers, there's probably very few full time SEN teachers. Most teachers are employed as teachers of their subjects, you have to be unless qualified in SEN, and then move into SEN.

Learning support is at broad as it is tall. Small group teaching as in a very small English or maths or geography class with a target group of children is different to having two HL class of ten each.

Yes asked what she was thinking, she wasn't a maths teacher. Her thinking is "it's the way it's happening in fifth year and that's the end of it". I think there's some truth in she fails to recognise the difference in the course content for different levels.

evolving_doors

man_no_plan wrote: »

I wouldn't think so.

You couldn't argue against a small foundation level class. That's small group teaching.

If there's only one class I'm thinking less than 30 students in 5th year? Maybe the thinking is you justify the small honours and packed ol/FL class.

Did you ask what the thinking was OP?

As for reappropriation of teachers, there's probably very few full time SEN teachers. Most teachers are employed as teachers of their subjects, you have to be unless qualified in SEN, and then move into SEN.

Learning support is at broad as it is tall. Small group teaching as in a very small English or maths or geography class with a target group of children is different to having two HL class of ten each.

I'd have to disagree there. I was at a Learning Support conference recently and a high majority of the people were tearing shreds out of a dept. representative who was saying that it only happens in small cases (the audience actually laughed!). They were complaining of resources not coming through.
We know the allocation to the school coming in ... we know the allocation to the learning support dept. going out. There is often a discrepancy.... and I doubt very much that schools are not 'using up the hours'. If you don't use them up this year you don't get next year ( first thing I was taught on a summer job scheme working in a council finance office :pac: 'doing the books').

I'd urge teachers to check how many hours their schools are getting and do the maths.
http://ncse.ie/resource-teaching-hours-and-sna-allocations

So if a school is getting 100hrs and there's only 2 or 3 full time LS posts, where are the other hours going? I accept it might be hard to see as its dotted over teachers timetables to make up their 22hrs . But learning support depts can see the total timetables.

The fact the principal is calling it 'team teaching' is a dead giveaway. Why doesn't the school just split the class into higher + ordinary/foundation like other schools do? I'm sorry but 2 teachers in a room teaching 3 levels is fishy as hell.
Its blatant that that teacher post is ex quota.

You don't have to have an SEN qualification to teach it either. The dept recommends it.... but needs of the school etc.

happywithlife

evolving_doors wrote: »

I'd have to disagree there. I was at a Learning Support conference recently and a high majority of the people were tearing shreds out of a dept. representative who was saying that it only happens in small cases (the audience actually laughed!). They were complaining of resources not coming through.
We know the allocation to the school coming in ... we know the allocation to the learning support dept. going out. There is often a discrepancy.... and I doubt very much that schools are not 'using up the hours'. If you don't use them up this year you don't get next year ( first thing I was taught on a summer job scheme working in a council finance office :pac: 'doing the books').

I'd urge teachers to check how many hours their schools are getting and do the maths.
http://ncse.ie/resource-teaching-hours-and-sna-allocations

So if a school is getting 100hrs and there's only 2 or 3 full time LS posts, where are the other hours going? I accept it might be hard to see as its dotted over teachers timetables to make up their 22hrs . But learning support depts can see the total timetables.

The fact the principal is calling it 'team teaching' is a dead giveaway. Why doesn't the school just split the class into higher + ordinary/foundation like other schools do? I'm sorry but 2 teachers in a room teaching 3 levels is fishy as hell.
Its blatant that that teacher post is ex quota.

You don't have to have an SEN qualification to teach it either. The dept recommends it.... but needs of the school etc.

100% agree
I subbed in the SEN dept once - think it was 15 hrs with no specialist training altgough I do have an interest in the area - had been accepted to.do the post grad the following yr actually but a change in principalship meant I didn't get the promised neccessary hours and so had to withdraw from the course.
i know its what's happening in our school and older staff in particular are very resistant to another teacher "coming into their classroom". It's hamfisted the way it's been foisted onto people. starting with a few key players and gradually introducing it - with proper training & not just a spiel from someone at the top of a room - might have made it more palatable to staff and easier to incorporate

evolving_doors

happywithlife wrote: »

100% agree
I subbed in the SEN dept once - think it was 15 hrs with no specialist training altgough I do have an interest in the area - had been accepted to.do the post grad the following yr actually but a change in principalship meant I didn't get the promised neccessary hours and so had to withdraw from the course.
i know its what's happening in our school and older staff in particular are very resistant to another teacher "coming into their classroom". It's hamfisted the way it's been foisted onto people. starting with a few key players and gradually introducing it - with proper training & not just a spiel from someone at the top of a room - might have made it more palatable to staff and easier to incorporate

Agree, the dept have bit of international research done and have piloted it (in cork if my memory serves me correctly)... but that's with all the resources and timetabled planning in place.
The research I looked at actually says it doesn't work if this is not done... if anything the 'sen's role in team/co- teaching is demoted.

https://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/9bf6/296ee9f942efae49055465622047adebb85c.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwiF5sKLrqvdAhUBWywKHcuhDDUQFjAAegQIBBAB&usg=AOvVaw2yADdoDmm_NTTCl6N7p2Qj

Zigmond and Scruggs are 2 of the predominant researchers.

Many teachers on here have posted that they've been thrown in to it without any planning allowed (or notification to the other teacher!).

Plus... who's responsible for the classes grades and meets the parents at PTMs!

Interpersonal relationships and 'buy in' are also important.