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RR World Champs

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    #302
    CramCycle
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,933 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    I wonder will he go for a Cargo bike or have a trailer? Which would be better for training


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    #303
    WMP
    Registered Users Posts: 84 ✭✭WMP


    I hope Valverde is clean. If so he is an inspiration to all of us 'old' lads. He's the oldest world champion but at 38, he isn't exactly an old man. I'll be 43 this year and am not over the hill yet thankfully. If anything my fitness is improving and my cycling and running event times are getting better. I only started road cycling about 8 years ago so I cant say what I would have been like in my 20's.

    Jens Voigt competed at the highest level into his 40's. I don't think age is a big handicap in endurance sports.


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    #304
    EC1000
    Registered Users Posts: 1,336 ✭✭✭EC1000


    WMP wrote: »
    I'll be 43 this year and am not over the hill yet thankfully. If anything my fitness is improving and my cycling and running event times are getting better. I only started road cycling about 8 years ago so I cant say what I would have been like in my 20's.

    If you start an activity in your mid-thirties, it is not surprising that you would spend quite a few years improving your times, regardless of age. The same principle does not apply to an elite athlete who doped in his prime.


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    #305
    WMP
    Registered Users Posts: 84 ✭✭WMP


    EC1000 wrote: »
    If you start an activity in your mid-thirties, it is not surprising that you would spend quite a few years improving your times, regardless of age. The same principle does not apply to an elite athlete who doped in his prime.

    Yes and no. It depends a lot on the starting point, e.g. whether that's couch potato or from a good fitness level. I was doing other sports before I started cycling. I have run for much longer and my running times are improving now in my 40's. So my point is that I think its possible and not even unusual in endurance sports.

    Elite athletes are different of course, I agree. But you are saying its not possible that Valverde could have improved in his mid to late 30's? I'm not sure.


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    #306
    Macy0161
    Registered Users Posts: 9,450 ✭✭✭Macy0161


    Has he really improved? I wouldn't say so, he's declined slower than many, and many of his wins are down to his sprint which has always been good for a climber. Also, into the mid 30's, how much decline of others/ the trend actually motivation rather than physical? I don't know, but plenty have packed when still capable of results.

    I've no idea whether he's clean, or whether he's still benefitting from long term effects of doping, but I don't really see anything in his performances or his performances at his age that would really convince me he's 100% definitely juiced. I actually wouldn't be surprised to his motivation wane now he has the jersey.


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    #307
    terrydel
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,881 ✭✭✭terrydel


    WMP wrote: »
    Yes and no. It depends a lot on the starting point, e.g. whether that's couch potato or from a good fitness level. I was doing other sports before I started cycling. I have run for much longer and my running times are improving now in my 40's. So my point is that I think its possible and not even unusual in endurance sports.

    Elite athletes are different of course, I agree. But you are saying its not possible that Valverde could have improved in his mid to late 30's? I'm not sure.

    Do you honestly think I guy who doped in his prime could be better now at 38 than he was 10+ years ago? Seriously?
    And he proper doped, blood transfusions etc. It wasn't just the TUE type stuff, as bad as that is.


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    #308
    Macy0161
    Registered Users Posts: 9,450 ✭✭✭Macy0161


    I'll say again, is he actually better? Better results, weaker rider imo.


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    #309
    WMP
    Registered Users Posts: 84 ✭✭WMP


    Macy0161 wrote: »
    Has he really improved? I wouldn't say so, he's declined slower than many, and many of his wins are down to his sprint which has always been good for a climber. Also, into the mid 30's, how much decline of others/ the trend actually motivation rather than physical? I don't know, but plenty have packed when still capable of results.

    True, his fitness might not have improved. The win could be more down to experience but he the fitness still needs to be there to make it to the final sprint, like yesterday.

    He must not have declined much to produce that effort yesterday. And you could argue that he must be at least as fit as he was 10 years ago.

    I think its a good point that very few have stuck around this long.


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    #310
    brocbrocach
    Registered Users Posts: 890 ✭✭✭brocbrocach


    Plus the probability is that doping now is generally less effective than it was 10 years ago, so it's easier to survive and prosper in todays peloton without being as good.


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    #311
    WMP
    Registered Users Posts: 84 ✭✭WMP


    terrydel wrote: »
    Do you honestly think I guy who doped in his prime could be better now at 38 than he was 10+ years ago? Seriously?
    And he proper doped, blood transfusions etc. It wasn't just the TUE type stuff, as bad as that is.

    Yes. Seriously. Why not? The assumption is that athletes peak in their 20's but that might not be correct. For contact sports few last into their late 30's and that's understandable. But for endurance sports, why not. If you have a relatively injury free career it certainly looks like you could be just as good at 38 than at 28.

    Also factor in continuous improvements in training, nutrition and cycling tech.


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    #312
    terrydel
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,881 ✭✭✭terrydel


    WMP wrote: »
    Yes. Seriously. Why not? The assumption is that athletes peak in their 20's but that might not be correct. For contact sports few last into their late 30's and that's understandable. But for endurance sports, why not. If you have a relatively injury free career it certainly looks like you could be just as good at 38 than at 28.

    Also factor in continuous improvements in training, nutrition and cycling tech.

    Well it's technology for a start, why is that stupid phrase 'tech' used at every opportunity?
    Sure if what you said re. athletes peaking later in life is even half true, we'd have loads or even a decent number of highly successful athletes in that age group. Fact is we don't, not even close. Its not an assumption, it's a statement based on fact and historical evidence and scientific proof.


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    #313
    RobFowl
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 11,667 Mod ✭✭✭✭RobFowl


    brocbrocach wrote: »
    Plus the probability is that doping now is generally less effective than it was 10 years ago, so it's easier to survive and prosper in todays peloton without being as good.


    Why do you state it's probably that doping is less effective now?
    Genuinely curious...


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    #314
    Bambaata
    Registered Users Posts: 4,101 ✭✭✭Bambaata


    WMP wrote: »

    Elite athletes are different of course, I agree. But you are saying its not possible that Valverde could have improved in his mid to late 30's? I'm not sure.

    It isnt possible... its a member of the old guard here we're talking about who is better off the drugs than on them :rolleyes:

    It must be the beetroot juice!


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    #315
    LCD
    Registered Users Posts: 1,123 ✭✭✭LCD


    The one thing that no one is pointing out is the mental aspect, the hunger.

    Most athletes in all sports peak in late 20s, early 30s, because very few race past that age. At that stage of life many are starting to have kids, have made enough money to potentially be mortgage free, set up for life. They also just loose the hunger, been racing hard since early teens, get tired of looking after their bodies, the dedication to diet, training & recovery. Missing every friend's party, family event unless they happened to fall in the off season, for the last 15 years. The #perfectlife instagram posts don't show how incredibly hard that lifestyle is.

    So maybe Valverde is a unique individual who just never got sick of it, maybe his wife & family are incredibly supportive. He is just as hungry now as he was at 21. Maybe he loves getting home from 6hours having a salad & lying on the couch for 4 hours wearing his normatc recovery boots & not going to his mate's 40th that evening.


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    #316
    Macy0161
    Registered Users Posts: 9,450 ✭✭✭Macy0161


    LCD wrote: »
    The one thing that no one is pointing out is the mental aspect, the hunger
    Macy0161 wrote: »
    Also, into the mid 30's, how much decline of others/ the trend actually motivation rather than physical? I don't know, but plenty have packed when still capable of results.

    ;)


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    #317
    RobFowl
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 11,667 Mod ✭✭✭✭RobFowl


    Valverde just wanted it more ....


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    #318
    brocbrocach
    Registered Users Posts: 890 ✭✭✭brocbrocach


    RobFowl wrote: »
    Why do you state it's probably that doping is less effective now?
    Genuinely curious...


    Well it's more the fact that if you go baloobas on the EPO or transfuse multiple bags nowadays they have improved ways of detecting that. So unless you're very foolish or very protected it's harder to get away with the really effective doping, although microdosing is fairly prevalent I believe. Not just the improved testing but stuff like the Biopassport would force you to rein it in.

    Granted, there's probably some wonder-drug out there that the public and Wada haven't cottoned on to yet but the continuing success of Sevilla, Horner, VV would lead you to think that nobody managed to get anything stronger since.


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    #319
    Lusk_Doyle
    Registered Users Posts: 4,338 ✭✭✭Lusk_Doyle


    WMP wrote: »
    Jens Voigt competed at the highest level into his 40's. I don't think age is a big handicap in endurance sports.

    That's a bit generous to Jens. He was a domestique with a licence to roam. That is not the same thing as competing at the highest level and is no way akin to what AV has been doing.


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    #320
    Thud
    Registered Users Posts: 2,611 ✭✭✭Thud


    brocbrocach wrote: »

    Granted, there's probably some wonder-drug out there that the public and Wada haven't cottoned on to yet but the continuing success of Sevilla, Horner, VV would lead you to think that nobody managed to get anything stronger since.

    jiffy_aircraft_gold_bubble_envelope2-08.jpg


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    #321
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    interesting perspective on Valverde winning on the latest bbc bespoke podcast.

    obviously some home-team views but why are Valverde and Contador so popular with many when they had serious offences against them when Sky are so unpopular when the offences are in comparison minor?

    is it 'cos Sky win too much (and have too strong a team?)- simple as that? whereas if you don't win too much (Valverde more so than Contador) then it's ok?


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    #322
    eagle eye
    Registered Users Posts: 38,465 ✭✭✭✭eagle eye


    It's because Sky have a vice like grip on the Tour. It used to be cyclist vs cyclist with one or maybe two courageous demestiques but now it's become team sky vs the rest. Everybody is certain they are doing something naughty and that's why it's the way it is.

    The tour is by far the most important and prestigious race on the cycling calendar. If they were winning the Giro one year and the vuelta the next and the tour every three then there wouldn't be so much hate for them.


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    #323
    CramCycle
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,933 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    There also isn't the same denial about doping from the others, it is just silence. Sky set out their stall as being Whiter than white, and it didn't work when they tried that (although they were not terrible, just not winning). Someone obviously decided they had to win quick, then all of a sudden, everything went well, but at the same time a doping doctor was hired, more and more stories of riders doing things they shouldn't.

    Most commentators outside of the UK and Ireland (and the US) are right, in that fans outside of these areas really don't give as much of a sh1t, they are probably more annoyed at Sky for making a big deal out of it.

    Other riders and teams either say it was an accident or take the hit and the ban/fine, Sky hire a crack team of lawyers to produce a dossier full of half assed science to simply bore the f*** out of those prosecuting.


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    #324
    Macy0161
    Registered Users Posts: 9,450 ✭✭✭Macy0161


    glasso wrote:
    interesting perspective on Valverde winning on the latest bbc bespoke podcast.
    Home team views a plenty any time Hayles is on. They really downplayed what Sky have been up to, never mind (as cram pointed out) they're pr bull they said from the outset of the team.

    I do wonder would they have felt the same, and had the same debate as to whether convicted dopers should even be allowed compete if Simon Yates had won. Would "cultural differences" still have been a thing?


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    #325
    RobFowl
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 11,667 Mod ✭✭✭✭RobFowl


    Hayles himself was withdrawn from the worlds after his haematocrit tested high. Was in the pre epo test days so was only suspended for health reasons for a few weeks.


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    #326
    CramCycle
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,933 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    RobFowl wrote: »
    Hayles himself was withdrawn from the worlds after his haematocrit tested high. Was in the pre epo test days so was only suspended for health reasons for a few weeks.
    Did he play Tennis as well? :pac::pac:


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    #327
    Macy0161
    Registered Users Posts: 9,450 ✭✭✭Macy0161


    He was just ridiculous on the Froome case when that broke. We all love to follow UK Cycling Expert on twitter (if you don't, you should!), but the guff Hayles in particular comes out with, it's no wonder a lot of relative newbies to following the sport have the impression that the Brits are whiter than white, and all the rest are dirty. I mean, for all the giving out about the inuendo around sky, they quite happily joined the dots regarding Contador (beyond his actual conviction) in the same bloody podcast.

    I'm actually vowing to not listen to it when Hayles is on. It's actually ok-ish when it's Fordyce/ Whittle/ Hutch - still not one of my favourites but listenable.


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