iPhone XS, XS Max and XR

mad muffin

The thing with iPhone prices imho is that Apple are pricing them as if most everyone is getting them like they do in the States ie the upgrade program.

Interest free payments over 12 months and turn in your iPhone for an upgrade makes it that much easier to get one. Of course Apple Doesn’t offer that here.

Dades

Is it not just a case that people are upgrading less often, so the high prices are to counteract the resulting drop in volumes?

mad muffin

Dades wrote: »

Is it not just a case that people are upgrading less often, so the high prices are to counteract the resulting drop in volumes?

Not the case at all. The technology in them is more expensive and the profit margins are actually lower. It was 44% in 2012 now they are 37-38 according to Daring Fireball.

Shn99

Dades wrote: »

Is it not just a case that people are upgrading less often, so the high prices are to counteract the resulting drop in volumes?

They are facing increased competition from other manufacturers too and with OnePlus and Xaomi entering the western markets, it won’t help. Don’t Harvey Norman offer some flexi pay system?

EdgeCase

In my opinion the iPhone has crossed the line on the cost : benefit analysis for a lot of customers. Most of us buy an iPhone probably on a 24 month contract.

If it’s 24 months and a payment of maybe a couple of hundred Euro upfront, that’s a bit saucy but it’s still not ridiculous for good hardware. That’s what you’re typically paying for say a Samsung Galaxy Note 9 or other very high end Android devices that compete with the high end iPhones.

However, the recent iPhones are gone way over a €1000 and are looking at €1600+ for the top of the line fully spec’d out model. That’s pushing it into a 24 month contract and maybe €700 upfront.

For a lot of people that’s crossing the line into ridiculous pricing, even if you can afford it. I mean the iOS ecosystem is nice and the phones are good hardware but that is just taking the ....

I just think Apple have lost the plot on pricing. They can’t just keep going up and up and up every iteration.

Also on their Macs. I am very disappointed with the build quality in the recent MacBook Pro. The keyboard is loud and bad quality to the point the keys go unresponsive in normal use. That’s not something I would ever have even considered when buying a Mac in the past. The hardware was always excellent and you generally did not get any quality issues like that. Yeah, they occasionally made the odd strange design move but generally they had usability in mind always.

I find recent Apple hardware flimsy and the designs are so minimalist they’re getting to the stage they’re stepping into form over function and losing usability and quality.

That’s enough to have me shopping around.

Also what the iPad for? It’s a lovely device but iOS is so limited compared to running a version of MacOS with touch capabilities. Unfortunately for Apple, that’s one area that windows has leaped way ahead. There are a plethora of really good windows based convertible tablets. They were clunky and not so great a few years ago but they’re now an extremely viable alternative to a traditional laptop and I’m finding myself looking at some of them thinking why do I have a Mac anymore.

Also on the mobile side Android was clunkier than iOS but that’s no longer the case. The experience on high end android phones is now extremely good and the ecosystem is enormous.

I feel bad about that as I know there are thousands of jobs in Cork depending on Apple but it’s a company that I think has been at the top of its game and has now moved into arrogance and an inevitable fall to reality.

They need to look at what their very loyal customers want and stop just assuming they’ve the Midas touch.

I think a lot of it has to do with Steve Jobs passing. The company has drifted and I suspect it was being driven by him and a group who had intuitive ability to analyze the market. That seems to be fading fast at Apple.

I see Apple as a bit like one of the German luxury car brands, in the sense that they’ve a loyal consumer base who are willing to pay a premium but if they lose consistency they could easily lose the shine.

Cee-Jay-Cee

EdgeCase wrote: »

In my opinion the iPhone has crossed the line on the cost : benefit analysis for a lot of customers. Most of us buy an iPhone probably on a 24 month contract.

If it’s 24 months and a payment of maybe a couple of hundred Euro upfront, that’s a bit saucy but it’s still not ridiculous for good hardware. That’s what you’re typically paying for say a Samsung Galaxy Note 9 or other very high end Android devices that compete with the high end iPhones.

However, the recent iPhones are gone way over a €1000 and are looking at €1600+ for the top of the line fully spec’d out model. That’s pushing it into a 24 month contract and maybe €700 upfront.

For a lot of people that’s crossing the line into ridiculous pricing, even if you can afford it. I mean the iOS ecosystem is nice and the phones are good hardware but that is just taking the ....

I just think Apple have lost the plot on pricing. They can’t just keep going up and up and up every iteration.

Also on their Macs. I am very disappointed with the build quality in the recent MacBook Pro. The keyboard is loud and bad quality to the point the keys go unresponsive in normal use. That’s not something I would ever have even considered when buying a Mac in the past. The hardware was always excellent and you generally did not get any quality issues like that. Yeah, they occasionally made the odd strange design move but generally they had usability in mind always.

I find recent Apple hardware flimsy and the designs are so minimalist they’re getting to the stage they’re stepping into form over function and losing usability and quality.

That’s enough to have me shopping around.

Also what the iPad for? It’s a lovely device but iOS is so limited compared to running a version of MacOS with touch capabilities. Unfortunately for Apple, that’s one area that windows has leaped way ahead. There are a plethora of really good windows based convertible tablets. They were clunky and not so great a few years ago but they’re now an extremely viable alternative to a traditional laptop and I’m finding myself looking at some of them thinking why do I have a Mac anymore.

Also on the mobile side Android was clunkier than iOS but that’s no longer the case. The experience on high end android phones is now extremely good and the ecosystem is enormous.

I feel bad about that as I know there are thousands of jobs in Cork depending on Apple but it’s a company that I think has been at the top of its game and has now moved into arrogance and an inevitable fall to reality.

They need to look at what their very loyal customers want and stop just assuming they’ve the Midas touch.

I think a lot of it has to do with Steve Jobs passing. The company has drifted and I suspect it was being driven by him and a group who had intuitive ability to analyze the market. That seems to be fading fast at Apple.

I see Apple as a bit like one of the German luxury car brands, in the sense that they’ve a loyal consumer base who are willing to pay a premium but if they lose consistency they could easily lose they shine.

Wholeheartedly agree with the above.

Apple have lost me as a long time customer as I'm going to get the Huawei P20 Pro 128GB on a 24 month contract for €229 compared to the XR with 64gb on 24month contract for €449. The difference is way too great to stay with apple on this one and TBH I'm sick to death of having my photos on iCloud and trying to access them, a truly hair pulling exercise everytime!

Oafley Jones

I've this theory, that's based on nothing, and is probably complete ****, but I wonder if Apple made a critical mistake when they introduced the X. By introducing an 8 and pricing the X at a tier above the "regular" iPhone did they take the gloss off the product. If you went for the 8 (and now XR) you were getting the second tier device, the "lesser" iPhone. You present your customer with a choice that they didn't really have before when talking about brand new models. And I wonder if that introduces a level of evaluation that existed before, do I need this? can I make do? what's the alternative from competitors?

Of course, pricing has gone mental as well and the usual evolution is lagging. I'd backed up my X on the XS's announcement day ready to chuck it into CEX. I wasn't expecting much, but the XS just stopped me. Even if it had landscape FaceID I'd have probably jumped, surely a given... but no. Nothing there for me.

Not a mobile device, but I've been using Apple laptops for almost 20 years now. If I broke my 2015 MBP, I'm not sure that I'd stay with Apple.

EdgeCase

I think they’re overdue a reality check. The question is will they be able to respond or are they drinking their own Kool-aid for too long?

I just feel like a lot of the loyalty they get is really from a bygone era when they were a plucky little quirky computer company from California that was always up against it and used to have really innovative products and a sort of geeky cute factor that was very likable.

They have bitten many of their most loyal fans over the last while. For example inexplicably ditching or radically altering professional products that had been the reason Macs were popular in creative environments. They then made that bloody awful dustbin shaped Mac Pro without any internal expansion, effectively making it an absolute pain in the rear to integrate into a studio and resulting in many people not upgrading equipment or moving to PCs. Did they ask anyone who actually used a MacPro what they needed ?! I mean I can't think of anyone who would say : well, the one thing I need is a small round computer that has no expansion slots and is needs a nest of cables and 3rd party external cases connected by USB C / Thunderbolt.

The old Mac Pro was an absolutely fantastic design with a drop down side panel and was a pleasure to tinker with because it was designed for its user base.

You'd have to wonder what they were thinking.

They also reached out to the open source development community years ago for WebKit, Darwin and other aspects of OS X that have their origins in the Unix world. Then they very quickly reversed, pulling back into closed shop mode and leaving a lot of people who had been enthusiastic about this new Unixy Mac platform feeling very much hung out to dry.

Then they did things like agressively pursue bloggers who were just diehard, often almost obsessive Apple fans who either predicted new hardware, based on rumours and trends or who may have actually had access to leaks in some cases.

What exactly did that achieve? Angering the most loyal supporters of your brand?

Apple had *huge* community capital that they have largely trodden on since they became big. That includes normal customers and also the very influential creative media people who used to evangelise Apple products as they were all over studios and work spaces. You can't buy that kind of community but you sure can fail to understand what it is and chase it away.

Everything about the company now just says Big Corporate Arrogance.

In a decade and a bit we've gone from a big rainbow apple to something that reminds me of HAL 9000 crossed with a very arrogant fashion brand.

It'll be interesting to see where they go over the next few years but I suspect it will be at best to a future or relative mediocrity.

Sorry if that's a bit of a rant on the brand but it's basically why I think we are where we are with the iPhones.

Also when you look at the recent designs : the bulging camera that's off centre at the back meaning you can't lay the phone flat and the notch? Both quite ugly design compromises. I think if you’d presented those to Steve Jobs in the mid 2000s you’d have been escorted off the premises.

Shn99

EdgeCase wrote: »

Everything about the company now just says Big Corporate Arrogance.
.

Agreed, it’s laughable that they don’t even include a fast charger in the box...its easier to connect a P3XL to a Mac out of the box than it is an iphone. I was close to jumping ship this December but ill wait and see what they have in store this September before deciding.

flexcon

Just a thought. Even after this adjustment Apple will post the second highest revenue of any company EVER.

That's not a problem.

I think Apple would rather sell 1 iPhone for 2000 euro than 2 iPhones for 1000 each. It's the brand loyalty.

do I think the iPhone should be cheaper? So far the math suggests no. It's not too expensive. If the numbers suggest next quarter where there is a big drop off, and the company can make more profit by reducing the price then yes - it's too expensive. But so far it does not suggest this is the currently the issue at hand.

would I like it to be cheaper? Yes.

I can see the logical rational arguments about but they really do miss the fact that Apple is firing on all cylinders. In its internal memo it suggested China was the problem and not US canada or Europe.

iniall

flexcon wrote: »

I can see the logical rational arguments about but they really do miss the fact that Apple is firing on all cylinders. In its internal memo it suggested China was the problem and not US canada or Europe.

But China is its third biggest market - and a big slide in sales there a big problem for Apple as it's the only one of their big three markets where there's decent growth potential. With the exception of the entry-level iPad, everything Apple has updated in the last year has gone up in price. Covering up slowing sales with rising prices isn't a sustainable strategy.

EdgeCase

iniall wrote: »

But China is its third biggest market - and a big slide in sales there a big problem for Apple as it's the only one of their big three markets where there's decent growth potential. With the exception of the entry-level iPad, everything Apple has updated in the last year has gone up in price. Covering up slowing sales with rising prices isn't a sustainable strategy.

Particularly if you price in a potential recession in the US and EU markets, which is looking very possible at the moment due to Trump, Trade Wars, Brexit, the Italian banking turmoil and so on, then you’ve also got a potentially much more cautious consumer in those markets in 2019 and 2020.

longshotvalue

If anyone has tried to upgrade today they are in for a shock on vodafone.

Yesterday a Xr upgrade was 250 and i forgot my ID, its €400 today and going to be in that range from now on.

flexcon

iniall wrote: »

But China is its third biggest market - and a big slide in sales there a big problem for Apple as it's the only one of their big three markets where there's decent growth potential. With the exception of the entry-level iPad, everything Apple has updated in the last year has gone up in price. Covering up slowing sales with rising prices isn't a sustainable strategy.

That's my point - Even with this BIG slide in sales they will make record PROFITS. Until it hits a point where the profits take an actual hit - then keeping the prices the same is actually working. however, once this balance shifts then you can talk about pricing as the main leading factor. Until then, this isn't a BIG hit in terms of actual company performance.

EdgeCase wrote: »

Particularly if you price in a potential recession in the US and EU markets, which is looking very possible at the moment due to Trump, Trade Wars, Brexit, the Italian banking turmoil and so on, then you’ve also got a potentially much more cautious consumer in those markets in 2019 and 2020.

We will have to see. If Apple come out next quarter and again post massive profits - then pricing is not the main issue. It still comes down to when the tipping scales suggest that selling cheaper will offer more profit vs selling less devices but more expensive. Apple is not in the game of selling the most. It's in the game for maximizing profits like any major shareholder company.

So far - all I see is a 9% reduction on potential revenue - note not profit - so Apple could still meet profit targets. If that happens - what does that suggest?

whiterebel

EdgeCase wrote: »

I think a lot of it has to do with Steve Jobs passing. The company has drifted and I suspect it was being driven by him and a group who had intuitive ability to analyze the market. That seems to be fading fast at Apple.

I agree with everything else you say, but Jobs could get it spectacularly wrong too, hence him being fired first time around.

I wasn’t changing the iphone 7, but when I was offered an XR 64GB for €249 on Eir business, I jumped. I had a good look at Surface pro and other tablets, but I have so much invested into apps, iPad adaptors etc I couldn’t change. I would need to change iPads , MacBook Pro and phone all at the same time. Don’t forget the watch. Then change my presentations, etc over from Keynote etc. If the prices keep increasing, I’ll have a much longer look next time.

awec

I think they just ran out of ideas with regards the phones, and the only way they could iterate and try and make better ones was throwing more hardware at it which drives up cost.

During their hardware event in September when they announced the phones they kept waffling on about the tech specs, as if that is in any way something people care about. Nobody cares what processor their phone has, what GPU it has, the memory etc. They care about the experience. Apple devices have traditionally been comparatively low spec compared to competitors, but their experience was so good that nobody was bothered by it.

When you start seeing this sort of thing appear in marketing materials you know they have run out of interesting things to show their customers.

You look back all the flagship iPhones up to the 6s and each year there was something new that really grabbed your attention. 3G, 4G, 3d touch, touch id, face id, Siri, apple pay. Starting with the 7 things started to go downhill. This year, what was there to get excited about?

Shn99

awec wrote: »

I think they just ran out of ideas with regards the phones, and the only way they could iterate and try and make better ones was throwing more hardware at it which drives up cost.

During their hardware event in September when they announced the phones they kept waffling on about the tech specs, as if that is in any way something people care about. Nobody cares what processor their phone has, what GPU it has, the memory etc. They care about the experience. Apple devices have traditionally been comparatively low spec compared to competitors, but their experience was so good that nobody was bothered by it.

When you start seeing this sort of thing appear in marketing materials you know they have run out of interesting things to show their customers.

You look back all the flagship iPhones up to the 6s and each year there was something new that really grabbed your attention. 3G, 4G, 3d touch, touch id, face id, Siri, apple pay. Starting with the 7 things started to go downhill. This year, what was there to get excited about?

I agree with you, asking people to fork out €1200 euro for a phone more or less the the same as last years X is scandalous, they should’ve called the 8 the 7S because that’s exactly what it is, an S update..

Dades

awec wrote: »

I think they just ran out of ideas with regards the phones, and the only way they could iterate and try and make better ones was throwing more hardware at it which drives up cost.

It definitely seems like phone tech has plateaued - for all manufacturers. Iterative improvements to cameras year on year. Touch ID, Face ID, all just different ways of doing the same thing.

Maybe someone will come up with a real game changer in smartphones, or maybe it will continue the same. If the latter, then prices can't continue to rise at the same rate. Every phone will be fast, slim , have a decent quality big screen.

Surely Malibu Stacy can't just keep getting new hats?

Shn99

Apple iPhone XR/XS/XS Max Battery Case out now. Costs €149 for all models and is available in Black and White...they’re having a laugh at this stage
https://www.apple.com/ie/shop/product/MRXQ2ZM/A/iphone-xs-max-smart-battery-case-black?fnode=99&fs=f%3Dbatterycase%26fh%3D458b%252B45bf

What Username Guidelines

Shn99 wrote: »

Apple iPhone XR/XS/XS Max Battery Case out now. Costs €149 for all models and is available in Black and White...they’re having a laugh at this stage
https://www.apple.com/ie/shop/product/MRXQ2ZM/A/iphone-xs-max-smart-battery-case-black?fnode=99&fs=f%3Dbatterycase%26fh%3D458b%252B45bf

Insane price. But in fairness, the Xr battery is ridiculously good, not sure how needed these are

deco72

What Username Guidelines wrote: »

Insane price. But in fairness, the Xr battery is ridiculously good, not sure how needed these are

How long on average do you get out of the battery? Currently have a Samsung S7 and need to charge half way through the day which is really starting to bug me so thinking of switching over to iPhone for a change. Torn between the X and XR. Size of XR is slightly off putting it seems quite big.

What Username Guidelines

deco72 wrote: »

How long on average do you get out of the battery? Currently have a Samsung S7 and need to charge half way through the day which is really starting to bug me so thinking of switching over to iPhone for a change. Torn between the X and XR. Size of XR is slightly off putting it seems quite big.

According to settings, my average screentime per day is just over 5hrs but I use the device a lot for work. Going to bed about 11pm, i'd rarely have less than 30%. It varies from day to day, sometimes could be 40-45%. The Xr is still relatively new though, maybe 2 months since launch? But overall it's been one of the strongest batteries in an iPhone for me.

Size is purely a preference so can't help you there. I will say though that I came from an X and felt it a touch small, the XR is perfect (for me). The stuff around OLED vs LED, etc, is all forgotten about within a week and the battery remains impressive.

deco72

Yeah I dont think I would notice the OLED v LED that much given it is such a small screen. Maybe I'll just bite the bullet and get the XR.

Ron Burgundy II

I've got an upgrade available with Eir at the moment, but the price of the Xr seems very high for a 24-month contract. The Xr 64gb is €324, while the Galaxy S9 + is €202 plus get a free memory card. The only thing holding me to apple is that I use an iPad for work and college and Airdrop is very handy.

Rum Ham!

deco72 wrote: »

How long on average do you get out of the battery? Currently have a Samsung S7 and need to charge half way through the day which is really starting to bug me so thinking of switching over to iPhone for a change. Torn between the X and XR. Size of XR is slightly off putting it seems quite big.

I went from an S7 to the XS Max, I find a massive difference in the battery. Same as you I was charging halfway through the day, I'm at about 20% to 30% going to bed now with the XS Max.

whiterebel

Battery on the XR is brilliant alright, coming from an IPhone 7 which wasn’t bad.

deco72

whiterebel wrote: »

Battery on the XR is brilliant alright, coming from an IPhone 7 which wasn’t bad.

Cool think ill go with the XR. If can't get used to the size I'll see about swapping/selling on adverts.

Micky 32

whiterebel wrote: »

Battery on the XR is brilliant alright, coming from an IPhone 7 which wasn’t bad.

Recent tests ( including one of my own against a Max and XR) the Max is lasting as long as the XR and some tests revealed the max can last longer since recent software updates.

Nonoperational

Ron Burgundy II wrote: »

I've got an upgrade available with Eir at the moment, but the price of the Xr seems very high for a 24-month contract. The Xr 64gb is €324, while the Galaxy S9 + is €202 plus get a free memory card. The only thing holding me to apple is that I use an iPad for work and college and Airdrop is very handy.

I know people will absolutely disagree with me on this, but going from a S9+ to having an XR and XS max in the house, I'd take either iPhone every day.

deco72

Just picked up an XR and have to say really liking it so far. Battery is good easily get day and half out of it or so. Thought I would be put off by the size but not too bad. Only think is now what case to get?? I don’t particularly like puttting them on as they lose the nice feel but need someway to protect it.