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Timetable change

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  • 15-09-2018 7:51pm
    #1
    shinnyjosiedan
    Registered Users Posts: 56 ✭✭


    I'm a teacher on a full CID in my school for the past 13 yrs. I was called into the office by one of our deputy's on fri and given a significantly different timetable than i had been working off. Not only was it different times but different subjects and class groups. I'm very upset and angry over this. Is there anything i can do? Can I refuse this timetable? I got very upset in fri and asked to speak with the principal but they werent in the building and the dp responsible for timetabling wasnt around either...Looking for advice on how best to handle this on Monday.


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    #2
    evolving_doors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    On first glance people usually say you take what you get. Especially class groups. There's no such thing as a Leaving Cert honours teacher or junior cert ordinary level teacher -technically!- You're either qualified in secondary or you're not. Students come and go ,you can have the same class forever.

    However subject wise... if you are being siphoned off into another subject while another teacher assumes the subject's your CID is for, then it could potentially get tricky down the road.
    You'll need to ring the union.

    A CID can be ended any time with reasonable grounds, so its not quite as permanent as people make out.

    That's an extreme scenario above though.


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    #3
    shinnyjosiedan
    Registered Users Posts: 56 ✭✭shinnyjosiedan


    evolving_doors wrote: »
    On first glance people usually say you take what you get.

    However, if you are being siphoned off into another subject while another teacher assumes the subject's your CID is for, then it could potentially get tricky down the road.
    You'll need to ring the union.

    A CID can be ended any time with reasonable grounds, so its not quite as permanent as people make out.

    That's an extreme scenario above though.

    The deputy told me that a new teacher covering a career was getting some of my subjects....I work in an ETB and have contacted HR via email. I'll contact the union on Monday.


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    #4
    TheValeyard
    Registered Users Posts: 12,476 ✭✭✭✭TheValeyard


    evolving_doors wrote: »
    On first glance people usually say you take what you get. Especially class groups. There's no such thing as a Leaving Cert honours teacher or junior cert ordinary level teacher -technically!- You're either qualified in secondary or you're not. Students come and go ,you can have the same class forever.

    However subject wise... if you are being siphoned off into another subject while another teacher assumes the subject's your CID is for, then it could potentially get tricky down the road.
    You'll need to ring the union.

    A CID can be ended any time with reasonable grounds, so its not quite as permanent as people make out.

    That's an extreme scenario above though.

    CID have all the same rights and entitlements as permanent teachers.

    All Eyes On Rafah



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    #5
    evolving_doors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    Just to check... anyone else know... does career break substitute count towards a CID ? I didn't think it did.


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    #6
    TheValeyard
    Registered Users Posts: 12,476 ✭✭✭✭TheValeyard


    evolving_doors wrote: »
    Just to check... anyone else know... does career break substitute count towards a CID ? I didn't think it did.

    I thought only you're own hours could count towards it?

    All Eyes On Rafah



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    #7
    TheDriver
    Registered Users Posts: 12,517 ✭✭✭✭TheDriver


    The context would need to be given. E. G. Let's say your 2nd subject was a niche area but a teacher on leave with that subject needed replacing. But only replacements are for your 1st subjects. Then naturally the school has to reshuffle staff to fill that need. But a chat would be had first.
    If its a reasonable expectation that you can teach this TT and the reasons are reasonable, then the P or DP have to manage the TT. If its for a laugh etc, then obviously not.
    Be careful claiming you can't do something or stress as you are then undermining your own professional capacity.


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    #8
    r93kaey5p2izun
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,962 ✭✭✭r93kaey5p2izun


    evolving_doors wrote: »
    Just to check... anyone else know... does career break substitute count towards a CID ? I didn't think it did.

    Yes covering a career break counts for CID. A CID cannot be ended any more easily or differently than a permanent position.

    They can do what they like really with your timetable. But sounds like extremely poor management to land this all of a sudden with no or insufficient explanation. If they were any good at their job they would be able to "sell" this to you and keep you on side rather than causing upset that will benefit nobody.


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    #9
    shinnyjosiedan
    Registered Users Posts: 56 ✭✭shinnyjosiedan


    TheDriver wrote: »
    The context would need to be given. E. G. Let's say your 2nd subject was a niche area but a teacher on leave with that subject needed replacing. But only replacements are for your 1st subjects. Then naturally the school has to reshuffle staff to fill that need. But a chat would be had first.
    If its a reasonable expectation that you can teach this TT and the reasons are reasonable, then the P or DP have to manage the TT. If its for a laugh etc, then obviously not.
    Be careful claiming you can't do something or stress as you are then undermining your own professional capacity.

    My subjects are business and IT. I teach in a PLC college. The sub has the same sibjects as far as I know. I also think that some of my hours are being given to dp's wife. I've no evidence of this yet.

    I will be asking the dp in charge of timetabling what the reasons are for the changes and go from there. If the dp's wife has some of my hrs I'll go mad as she refuses to teach mornings and afternoons as she has to pick up her kids......


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    #10
    judeboy101
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,246 ✭✭✭judeboy101


    Murray TheDemonic TalkingSkull wrote: »
    CID have all the same rights and entitlements as permanent teachers.

    No they don't. There are a number of extreme circumstances where they differ . Cid is defined by hrs and subjects, pwt isnt. If the hrs or subject disappear, school/dept is under no legal obligation to keep you. Also, when it comes to compulsory redeployment, Cid hav to be targeted before pwt.


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    #11
    TheValeyard
    Registered Users Posts: 12,476 ✭✭✭✭TheValeyard


    judeboy101 wrote: »
    No they don't. There are a number of extreme circumstances where they differ . Cid is defined by hrs and subjects, pwt isnt. If the hrs or subject disappear, school/dept is under no legal obligation to keep you. Also, when it comes to compulsory redeployment, Cid hav to be targeted before pwt.

    A teacher employed on a contract of indefinite duration holds an employment status that is equal to that of a permanent teacher.

    All Eyes On Rafah



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    #12
    judeboy101
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,246 ✭✭✭judeboy101


    Murray TheDemonic TalkingSkull wrote: »
    A teacher employed on a contract of indefinite duration holds an employment status that is equal to that of a permanent teacher.

    No they don't , I posed those and other weird scenarios at a jmb conference to a well known dept mandarin and he said in very extreme circumstances, cid does not equal pwt.


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    #13
    TheValeyard
    Registered Users Posts: 12,476 ✭✭✭✭TheValeyard


    judeboy101 wrote: »
    No they don't , I posed those and other weird scenarios at a jmb conference to a well known dept mandarin and he said in very extreme circumstances, cid does not equal pwt.

    Evidence?


    Every union, every department circular, every Principal says they are equal. Regardless of some conversation you had at a supposed meeting.

    All Eyes On Rafah



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    #14
    r93kaey5p2izun
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,962 ✭✭✭r93kaey5p2izun


    Circular 49/2017:
    "As stated in previous Department Circulars, a teacher employed on a contract of
    indefinite duration (CID) holds an employment status that is equal to that of a
    permanent teacher."

    All the extreme scenarios you suggest have been addressed at talks with DES. They have repeatedly included this in recent circulars to stop this untrue scaremongering.

    judeboy101 wrote: »
    No they don't , I posed those and other weird scenarios at a jmb conference to a well known dept mandarin and he said in very extreme circumstances, cid does not equal pwt.


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    #15
    judeboy101
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,246 ✭✭✭judeboy101


    Murray TheDemonic TalkingSkull wrote: »
    Evidence?


    Every union, every department circular, every Principal says they are equal. Regardless of some conversation you had at a supposed meeting.

    Evidence: If they are the same why different names, why all pwt's not converted to cid's? If exactly the same why does a pwt contract no stipulate the number of hrs but a cid does. If a subject disappears the cid disappears, the pwt doesn't.and when asti cid members were told they weren't covered under agreement they had to leave the union in order to be protected from compulsory redundancy 2yrs ago


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    #16
    TheValeyard
    Registered Users Posts: 12,476 ✭✭✭✭TheValeyard


    judeboy101 wrote: »
    Evidence: If they are the same why different names, why all pwt's not converted to cid's? If exactly the same why does a pwt contract no stipulate the number of hrs but a cid does. If a subject disappears the cid disappears, the pwt doesn't.

    CID or PWT can be redeployed.

    All Eyes On Rafah



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    #17
    judeboy101
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,246 ✭✭✭judeboy101


    Rodney Greasy Jewel wrote: »
    Circular 49/2017:
    "As stated in previous Department Circulars, a teacher employed on a contract of
    indefinite duration (CID) holds an employment status that is equal to that of a
    permanent teacher."

    All the extreme scenarios you suggest have been addressed at talks with DES. They have repeatedly included this in recent circulars to stop this untrue scaremongering.

    So why can't newly made cid's apply for ap1 positions? I mean if they are equal n all?


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    #18
    r93kaey5p2izun
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,962 ✭✭✭r93kaey5p2izun


    judeboy101 wrote: »
    So why can't newly made cid's apply for ap1 positions? I mean if they are equal n all?

    They can once they have 3 years teaching experience - same as those newly permanent. Someone who had just been awarded part time CID is who got the AP1 in my former school last week.


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    #19
    judeboy101
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,246 ✭✭✭judeboy101


    Rodney Greasy Jewel wrote: »
    They can once they have 3 years teaching experience - same as those newly permanent. Someone who had just been awarded part time CID is who got the AP1 in my former school last week.

    Cid is two years, so a nqt on their first 2yrs in a school (the only school they have ever taught in) can't go for ap1 in their 3rd yr even with a cid because they haven't 3yrs teaching. However every pwt in that school can. Hence cid and pwt are not the same in that teachers 3rd yr experience.


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    #20
    r93kaey5p2izun
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,962 ✭✭✭r93kaey5p2izun


    judeboy101 wrote: »
    Cid is two years, so a nqt on their first 2yrs in a school (the only school they have ever taught in) can't go for ap1 in their 3rd yr even with a cid because they haven't 3yrs teaching. However every pwt in that school can. Hence cid and pwt are not the same in that teachers 3rd yr experience.

    Teachers have been appointed as permanent in year 1 straight out of college this year - my school appointed two. They aren't eligible for posts. The determining factor is teaching experience not contract type.


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    #21
    judeboy101
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,246 ✭✭✭judeboy101


    Rodney Greasy Jewel wrote: »
    Teachers have been appointed as permanent in year 1 straight out of college this year - my school appointed two. They aren't eligible for posts. The determining factor is teaching experience not contract type.

    I very much doubt anyone has gotten a pwt contract in nearly a decade


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    #22
    r93kaey5p2izun
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,962 ✭✭✭r93kaey5p2izun


    judeboy wrote:
    I very much doubt anyone has gotten a pwt contract in nearly a decade

    Doubt away. Plenty of permanent jobs advertised this summer. My school gave permanent Spanish and Woodwork - both new hires and NQTs. So many resignations they are under quota. Same across the whole ETB. Union were on the ball to ensure any non CID teachers within the scheme of subjects advertised as permanent were given the permanent contract first so some ads were pulled and reissued. But yes, permanent jobs.


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    #23
    judeboy101
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,246 ✭✭✭judeboy101


    Rodney Greasy Jewel wrote: »
    Doubt away. Plenty of permanent jobs advertised this summer. My school gave permanent Spanish and Woodwork - both new hires and NQTs. So many resignations they are under quota. Same across the whole ETB. Union were on the ball to ensure any non CID teachers within the scheme of subjects advertised as permanent were given the permanent contract first so some ads were pulled and reissued. But yes, permanent jobs.
    Quick google shows no mention of pwt, plenty of Fixed term but no pwt.


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    #24
    r93kaey5p2izun
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,962 ✭✭✭r93kaey5p2izun


    judeboy101 wrote: »
    Quick google shows no mention of pwt, plenty of Fixed term but no pwt.

    There's even still 3 PWT jobs advertised for Dublin right now on edposts. If you want to imply I'm lying I'm ok with that. Nothing more I can do.


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    #25
    judeboy101
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,246 ✭✭✭judeboy101


    Rodney Greasy Jewel wrote: »
    There's even still 3 PWT jobs advertised for Dublin right now on edposts. If you want to imply I'm lying I'm ok with that. Nothing more I can do.

    Linky?


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    #26
    r93kaey5p2izun
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,962 ✭✭✭r93kaey5p2izun


    https://www.educationposts.ie/posts/second_level?sb=application_closing_date&sd=0&cy=27&pd=&vc=&pt=26
    judeboy101 wrote: »
    Linky?


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    #27
    deiseindublin
    Registered Users Posts: 2,263 ✭✭✭deiseindublin


    shinnyjosiedan wrote: »
    My subjects are business and IT. I teach in a PLC college. The sub has the same sibjects as far as I know. I also think that some of my hours are being given to dp's wife. I've no evidence of this yet.

    I will be asking the dp in charge of timetabling what the reasons are for the changes and go from there. If the dp's wife has some of my hrs I'll go mad as she refuses to teach mornings and afternoons as she has to pick up her kids......
    Outrageous abuse of position if that's what happened.

    Dying to see how it pans out.


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    #28
    evolving_doors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    judeboy101 wrote: »
    Cid is two years, so a nqt on their first 2yrs in a school (the only school they have ever taught in) can't go for ap1 in their 3rd yr even with a cid because they haven't 3yrs teaching. However every pwt in that school can. Hence cid and pwt are not the same in that teachers 3rd yr experience.

    Needs of the school I suppose!
    Although I would presume no one else would have gone for the AP post in order to appeal.


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    #29
    fall
    Registered Users Posts: 926 ✭✭✭fall


    They might be calling the jobs permanent but I can guarantee you they are cid contracts. It's the only show in town. They will still have to interview at the end of year one.


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    #30
    r93kaey5p2izun
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,962 ✭✭✭r93kaey5p2izun


    Circular 49/2017:
    "Employers are reminded that teachers can be recruited on a permanent basis ab initio,
    once the school is within its authorised allocation of teaching posts and the criteria
    outlined in Department Circulars for filling teaching posts are complied with."

    No. They're real permanent contracts. No re interviews. Things have shifted dramatically this summer in the Dublin area.
    fall wrote: »
    They might be calling the jobs permanent but I can guarantee you they are cid contracts. It's the only show in town. They will still have to interview at the end of year one.


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    #31
    fall
    Registered Users Posts: 926 ✭✭✭fall


    The department are a bit watery on that part of the circular. We were told we had to interview again year two and could also be subject to redeployment s.


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