Storm Ali : Weds 19 Sept 2018

Storm 10

YFlyer wrote: »

Would she have parked the caravan at a different location if there was a red warning?

Guys the woman had rented the Caravan its a camping and Caravan park with caravans for rent I understand she was cycling around Ireland

spookwoman

NIMAN wrote: »

The authorities can't win.

They got abuse after Ophelia when they declared RED and people said "sure we were grand".

This time they declared ORANGE and warned the public to take extreme care as there would be dangerous and damaging gusts, and again they get abuse.

Inventing colours and degrees of severity was the worst thing they ever did.
How did we manage beforehand when the weather service simply told us there was a bad storm on the way and to watch out for yourselves.

debbie 11 people, charlie 5, Ophelia 3. Population of ireland has greatly increased since charlie and the colour system had helped a little. It does need to be looked at though and others factors need to be looked at when issuing warning ie leaf coverage, soil condition which can affect trees. Then the issue of opening schools etc should be up near the top, is it safe or advisable to have a school open during an orange warning of Mean Speeds between 65 and 80 km/h with gusts between 110 and 130 km/h. The reports from the west yesterday was it even safe to be in a high sided school bus?

Storm 10 wrote: »

Guys the woman had rented the Caravan its a camping and Caravan park with caravans for rent I understand she was cycling around Ireland

Were does it say that she rented the caravan on site.

Defaulter1831

spookwoman wrote: »

debbie 11 people, charlie 5, Ophelia 3. Population of ireland has greatly increased since charlie and the colour system had helped a little. It does need to be looked at though and others factors need to be looked at when issuing warning ie leaf coverage, soil condition which can affect trees. Then the issue of opening schools etc should be up near the top, is it safe or advisable to have a school open during an orange warning of Mean Speeds between 65 and 80 km/h with gusts between 110 and 130 km/h. The reports from the west yesterday was it even safe to be in a high sided school bus?

Very sensible post. I agree totally.

ForestFire

Maybe then we do need to have postmortem of the storm/event and the color coding system to make things clearer of what actually happened.

For example, after Ophelia had passed ME could re-colour the map of Ireland, to show who was actually in a red Zone and who was in an orange zone.

That way, when you are told Ophelia was Red Alert (Which is still correct), but then in reality it was only Orange conditions in your area (Still needed the red alert due to forecast/Risk); the next time they issue orange, you don't think, well the last Red was okay so this is going to be even less sever than the last time (When in fact it is worse, because no-one came back out and said Ophelia was only red in Cork, Waterford...etc, and everywhere else got away with orange)??

Maybe we need more levels, Like Orange 1/2/3, Red 1/2/3

maybe we should just go back to the old system? I mean what was wrong with that and offer much more levels.
https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beaufort_scale

gozunda

spookwoman wrote: »

debbie 11 people, charlie 5, Ophelia 3. Population of ireland has greatly increased since charlie and the colour system had helped a little. It does need to be looked at though and others factors need to be looked at when issuing warning ie leaf coverage, soil condition which can affect trees. Then the issue of opening schools etc should be up near the top, is it safe or advisable to have a school open during an orange warning of Mean Speeds between 65 and 80 km/h with gusts between 110 and 130 km/h. The reports from the west yesterday was it even safe to be in a high sided school bus?

Were does it say that she rented the caravan on site.

Various news reports. For example see here

https://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/storm-ali-caravan-galway-weather-13275965

Google is your friend.

Tombo2001

coillsaille wrote: »

I know posters are getting sick of the arguement about the warning level so I won't say much more than I have in the thread already.
But one thing that's really getting to me is the posters making out that the people saying it should have been red take no personal responsibility for their own safety.
The problem is that many people's employer simply will not accept weather as justification for not showing up unless a red warning is issued. This thing of making out that all you have to do is check the forecast/look out the window and not go out if you think it's dangerous is complete BS. The repercussions for not showing up at work in the absence of a red warning are many and varied depending on your job.

You riddle me this.

If Regina Doherty is saying the government was prepared for this and her dept had closed 11 offices for the day, why did the Dept of Education feel it was ok for kids to be at school, and to be walking out of school at a time when the storm was to be in full throttle?

spookwoman

gozunda wrote: »

Various news reports. For example see here

https://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/storm-ali-caravan-galway-weather-13275965

Google is your friend.

Thanks. Not one for the sun / mirror

Back to the warning system there are loads of personal weather stations on weather underground that can also be used evaluate the warning system. It's not as if they are stuck with the main stations for info, the home stations are a goldmine of info.

gozunda

spookwoman wrote: »

Thanks. Not one for the sun / mirror

Back to the warning system there are loads of personal weather stations on weather underground that can also be used evaluate the warning system. It's not as if they are stuck with the main stations for info, the home stations are a goldmine of info.

Just one sourced at random t h. There seems to be a good few sources of same ...;)

I think one of the major issues with personal weather stations is accuracy and whether they are set up to record weather variables correctly.

Oneiric 3

Technically speaking, most of these so-called 'named' storms since the inception of the naming system haven't even been storms, except perhaps for some coastal headlands where nobody lives. We seem to be living in an age now where standard Atlantic systems that bring a few gale gusts are blown out of all proportion for the drama and maybe, just maybe, people have become weary of named storms being hyped up before hand when in reality they end up bringing nothing more than typical Irish weather.

I think if 'storms' are to be named, then the bar should be set way way higher.

Tombo2001

Oneiric 3 wrote: »

Technically speaking, most of these so-called 'named' storms since the inception of the naming system haven't even been storms, except perhaps for some coastal headlands where nobody lives. We seem to be living in an age now where standard Atlantic systems that bring a few gale gusts are blown out of all proportion for the drama and maybe, just maybe, people have become weary of named storms being hyped up before hand when in reality they end up bringing nothing more than typical Irish weather.

I think if 'storms' are to be named, then the bar should be set way way higher.

In 2015 didnt we have 8 storms between October and December - nothing was anything close to yesterday.

sryanbruen

Tombo2001 wrote: »

Oneiric 3 wrote: »

Technically speaking, most of these so-called 'named' storms since the inception of the naming system haven't even been storms, except perhaps for some coastal headlands where nobody lives. We seem to be living in an age now where standard Atlantic systems that bring a few gale gusts are blown out of all proportion for the drama and maybe, just maybe, people have become weary of named storms being hyped up before hand when in reality they end up bringing nothing more than typical Irish weather.

I think if 'storms' are to be named, then the bar should be set way way higher.

In 2015 didnt we have 8 storms between October and December - nothing was anything close to yesterday.

In 2015, there were 6 named storms. Where did the 8 figure come from?

Oneiric 3

sryanbruen wrote: »

In 2015, there were 6 named storms. Where did the 8 figure come from?

I don't keep count so I don't know. But how many of them were actual storms?

prunudo

Oneiric 3 wrote: »

Technically speaking, most of these so-called 'named' storms since the inception of the naming system haven't even been storms, except perhaps for some coastal headlands where nobody lives. We seem to be living in an age now where standard Atlantic systems that bring a few gale gusts are blown out of all proportion for the drama and maybe, just maybe, people have become weary of named storms being hyped up before hand when in reality they end up bringing nothing more than typical Irish weather.

I think if 'storms' are to be named, then the bar should be set way way higher.

There was a guy on Pat Kenny earlier, didnt catch his name but he made some good points about yesterdays storm and how we need to be careful not to lose the run of ourselves with over hype. Basically that while the 2 deaths were both tragic, they were freak accidents. Also if it wasn't for the havoc at the ploughing and the inconvenience to 100k people we wouldn't be hearing much about it.

irishgeo

Think we a Vermilion warning. A mix of orange and red. I do worry for people who can't see to make up their own mind and need to be told what to do in everything in life. It's people like this that have lead to warnings on everything like hot cup of tea may contain boiling water . It's always someone else fault.

If yesterday was classed as a red warning people would have be complaining that its wasn't a red level event.

Use your common sense people. Weather isn't perfect. You can have flash floods and cloud bursts in an instant and no warning is going to save you.

The weather changes on a dot. Ophelia didn't get as far as mayo last year despite it forecast. No can explain why. Maybe it slowed down. No one is going to explain why.

I'll leave with this.
Forecast
predict or estimate (a future event or trend).
Weather is a guess.

coillsaille

jvan wrote: »

There was a guy on Pat Kenny earlier, didnt catch his name but he made some good points about yesterdays storm and how we need to be careful not to lose the run of ourselves with over hype. Basically that while the 2 deaths were both tragic, they were freak accidents. Also if it wasn't for the havoc at the ploughing and the inconvenience to 100k people we wouldn't be hearing much about it.

Whatever about the ploughing, that was inconvenience. What I saw in Galway city yesterday morning was dangerous. People, especially kids, should not have been out walking the streets in those conditions. That's not hype or drama just my opinion on what I saw. Whether the blame lies with each individual, or their employers, or parents, or schools, or department of education, or ME, etc. I simply don't know.

DOCARCH

Mod Note: This is weather forum! Can we leave out reviews and/or comments in relation to somebody's business and how they operate that business!

Oneiric 3

coillsaille wrote: »

Whether the blame lies with each individual, or their employers, or parents, or schools, or department of education, or ME, etc. I simply don't know.

The blame is lies solely on the weather itself.

irishgeo

coillsaille wrote: »

jvan wrote: »

There was a guy on Pat Kenny earlier, didnt catch his name but he made some good points about yesterdays storm and how we need to be careful not to lose the run of ourselves with over hype. Basically that while the 2 deaths were both tragic, they were freak accidents. Also if it wasn't for the havoc at the ploughing and the inconvenience to 100k people we wouldn't be hearing much about it.

Whatever about the ploughing, that was inconvenience. What I saw in Galway city yesterday morning was dangerous. People, especially kids, should not have been out walking the streets in those conditions. That's not hype or drama just my opinion on what I saw. Whether the blame lies with each individual, or their employers, or parents, or schools, or department of education, or ME, etc. I simply don't know.

But if you had a red warning just for galway , how many people would still be out?

prunudo

coillsaille wrote: »

Whatever about the ploughing, that was inconvenience. What I saw in Galway city yesterday morning was dangerous. People, especially kids, should not have been out walking the streets in those conditions. That's not hype or drama just my opinion on what I saw. Whether the blame lies with each individual, or their employers, or parents, or schools, or department of education, or ME, etc. I simply don't know.

He wasn't saying that it wasnt dangeeous out, just that we don't need to be issuing red warnings for the likes of yesterday.
There seems to be complacency on the seriousness of an orange warning.

Rhineshark

Oneiric 3 wrote: »

Technically speaking, most of these so-called 'named' storms since the inception of the naming system haven't even been storms, except perhaps for some coastal headlands where nobody lives. We seem to be living in an age now where standard Atlantic systems that bring a few gale gusts are blown out of all proportion for the drama and maybe, just maybe, people have become weary of named storms being hyped up before hand when in reality they end up bringing nothing more than typical Irish weather.

I think if 'storms' are to be named, then the bar should be set way way higher.

Living on "a coastal headland where nobody lives" as you say with extraordinary dismissiveness tbh, I for one am grateful for the warnings.

Sure, perhaps where you lived it was "only a few normal gusts". It wasn't where I live. It was, in fact, a danger to life as a tree about as big as my house lying up against the house where it fell yesterday morning can attest. Thank God it fell at a slight angle or it would have hit either the bedroom (where someone was asleep) or the sitting room. Two of my workmates had close encounters with downed and flapping powerlines, several more had issues with fallen trees. Hell, half an hour after one was in saying there was a tree down, another came in having had two down in the same place. A second had fallen across the road in the height of the morning traffic run between the first and second getting in.

(Edit - relating to another post); Neither of the deaths were "freak accidents", they were storm deaths. The caravan did not just decide to take a leap over the cliff. The man was not just wandering around when suddenly out of nowhere a tree just dropped from the sky. There was intense winds (aka "typical Irish weather"?) that caused both accidents.

The weather forecast, and "drama" around storms is not just for the benefit of any single person and one personal experience is not going to be the same as everyone's. The amount of damage done yesterday - and yes, some of that was down to specific conditions unrelated to direct wind speed (trees in full leaf) - indicates that the warning was entirely warrented. If it didn't hit you as badly, maybe count yourself lucky rather than complaining that people who were in the direct line of fire got warnings.

Met Eireann really are damned if they do, damned if they don't. They are working at a large scale with notoriously changeable systems and actually do pretty well at it. If you want absolute, personalised, completely accurate information, you have to wait for it to hit and look out the window. Personally, I like having a relative scale to inform me in advance so I can adjust plans as needed. The warning system allows for that. Naming the storms is also helpful, especially for people who don't frequent weather forums.

Sycamore Tree

irishgeo wrote: »

But if you had a red warning just for galway , how many people would still be out?

Loads. It would have been ignored but schools would have closed. I had no power so could not wait to get to work.

I know of a situation where the council were out cutting up a tree yesterday and another tree fell right beside them.

ZeRoY

Rhineshark wrote: »

The weather forecast, and "drama" around storms is not just for the benefit of any single person and one personal experience is not going to be the same as everyone's.

I for one will be paying a lot more attention to "Orange" warnings from now on.

coillsaille

irishgeo wrote: »

But if you had a red warning just for galway , how many people would still be out?

Foolish people will always ignore warnings regardless of colours. But the little kids I saw crying yesterday while walking to school wouldn't have been out. And people with the cop on to take heed of the warning would be justified in telling their employer they weren't coming in.

Oneiric 3

Rhineshark wrote: »

Living on "a coastal headland where nobody lives" as you say with extraordinary dismissiveness tbh, I for one am grateful for the warnings.

Sure, perhaps where you lived it was "only a few normal gusts". It wasn't where I live. It was, in fact, a danger to life as a tree about as big as my house lying up against the house where it fell yesterday morning can attest. Thank God it fell at a slight angle or it would have hit either the bedroom (where someone was asleep) or the sitting room. Two of my workmates had close encounters with downed and flapping powerlines, several more had issues with fallen trees. Hell, half an hour after one was in saying there was a tree down, another came in having had two down in the same place. A second had fallen across the road in the height of the morning traffic run between the first and second getting in.

(Edit - relating to another post); Neither of the deaths were "freak accidents", they were storm deaths. The caravan did not just decide to take a leap over the cliff. The man was not just wandering around when suddenly out of nowhere a tree just dropped from the sky. There was intense winds (aka "typical Irish weather"?) that caused both accidents.

The weather forecast, and "drama" around storms is not just for the benefit of any single person and one personal experience is not going to be the same as everyone's. The amount of damage done yesterday - and yes, some of that was down to specific conditions unrelated to direct wind speed (trees in full leaf) - indicates that the warning was entirely warrented. If it didn't hit you as badly, maybe count yourself lucky rather than complaining that people who were in the direct line of fire got warnings.

Met Eireann really are damned if they do, damned if they don't. They are working at a large scale with notoriously changeable systems and actually do pretty well at it. If you want absolute, personalised, completely accurate information, you have to wait for it to hit and look out the window. Personally, I like having a relative scale to inform me in advance so I can adjust plans as needed. The warning system allows for that. Naming the storms is also helpful, especially for people who don't frequent weather forums.

That's fair enough, but you clearly don't understand the gist of my point. What most people experienced yesterday was, at most, a gale and not a 'storm' as defined by Meteorology. My point is that many of these named storms have not been storms at all, and naming them as storms devalues its meaning. Of course, as you say, strong winds at this time of year will have negative consequences for society at large, but had 'Ali' been an actual storm, then the consequences would have been much worse than a few felled trees.

Defaulter1831

Oneiric 3 wrote: »

That's fair enough, but you clearly don't understand the gist of my point. What most people experienced yesterday was, at most, a gale and not a 'storm' as defined by Meteorology. My point is that many of these named storms have not been storms at all, and naming them as storms devalues its meaning. Of course, as you say, strong winds at this time of year will have negative consequences for society at large, but had 'Ali' been an actual storm, then the consequences would have been much worse than a few felled trees.

The consequences were far worse than a few felled trees, regardless of it being a 'gale' or a 'storm'.

Tombo2001

Rhineshark wrote: »

Met Eireann really are damned if they do, damned if they don't. They are working at a large scale with notoriously changeable systems and actually do pretty well at it. If you want absolute, personalised, completely accurate information, you have to wait for it to hit and look out the window. Personally, I like having a relative scale to inform me in advance so I can adjust plans as needed. The warning system allows for that. Naming the storms is also helpful, especially for people who don't frequent weather forums.

It depends on what your interpretation of what Met Eireann's role should be.

In the past twenty/ twenty five years I cant remember any weather event leading to so much wind damage.

So I would view it as an extremely severe weather event; and one for which - given the scale of it - I would feel there was was insufficient forewarning.

Oneiric 3

What an Orwellian, snowflakey society we are rapidly morphing into.

Tombo2001

Oneiric 3 wrote: »

That's fair enough, but you clearly don't understand the gist of my point. What most people experienced yesterday was, at most, a gale and not a 'storm' as defined by Meteorology. My point is that many of these named storms have not been storms at all, and naming them as storms devalues its meaning. Of course, as you say, strong winds at this time of year will have negative consequences for society at large, but had 'Ali' been an actual storm, then the consequences would have been much worse than a few felled trees.

Thats really is only of interest to the weather buffs.

Its like the guys who bang on about how it rarely actually rains in Ireland, it showers.

Sorry, if I am standing here soaking wet I really dont care......

Tombo2001

Oneiric 3 wrote: »

What an Orwellian, snowflakey society we are rapidly morphing into.

Of course by the royal we, you mean 'you lot'.

MJohnston

Oneiric 3 wrote: »

What an Orwellian, snowflakey society we are rapidly morphing into.

Go on, complain about political correctness just to complete my bingo line.