Storm Ali : Weds 19 Sept 2018

Oneiric 3

Tombo2001 wrote: »

Sorry, if I am standing here soaking wet I really dont care......

Neither do I to be honest.

Tombo2001

Its just proving too much to feel totally superior to people and not shove it in their faces.

Oneiric 3

MJohnston wrote: »

Go on, complain about political correctness just to complete my bingo line.

Is it really possible to be this cliché?

M.T. Cranium

By the way, today's weather event has been given the name Bronagh, it only seems likely to bring any significant wind gusts in southern and eastern England though. I'm not sure how to say Bronagh in my mind, does it rhyme with bag or law?

... so this is Bronagh,

it's only some rain,

you'd have to go further

to feel any pain ...

Sycamore Tree

coillsaille wrote: »

Foolish people will always ignore warnings regardless of colours. But the little kids I saw crying yesterday while walking to school wouldn't have been out. And people with the cop on to take heed of the warning would be justified in telling their employer they weren't coming in.

Where did you see little kids crying while walking to school? How little were they? How many?

Were they crying because school wasn't closed?

Whispered

Bro-nah.
Making the most of the slight drop in temperature here with the fire lit.

Defaulter1831

Overall Met Eireann have been doing an excellent job these past few years.

They are balancing a fine line between creating panic, giving accurate information and volatile weather situations that evolve quickly.

I believe the Ophelia red warning saved lives. We should all be conscious of looking at the island as a whole. Just because an event doesn't meet yellow/orange/red criteria at selected met stations doesn't mean many people are in danger due to occupation, typography of the land, height above sea level and so on. If you're slating a roof, a fisherman, a farmer on the windward side of a lonesome mountain. Living on a leafy suberb with dangers from trees in full leaf falling. There are so many potential scenarios for individuals to take into account.

There's nothing snowflakey about trying to protect life. There's a kind of silly academia by hiding behind borderline definitions of what's a gale and what's a storm.

Spookwoman made an excellent post this morning about possible alterations to the warning system re. trees in full leaf, wet ground etc.

Oneiric 3

Yesterday morning and the day before, Met Éireann clearly stated that dangerous conditions would be experienced in western coastal regions. People, including parents, despite gale force winds blowing outside and trees falling all over the place, still decided to venture out with the kids because there was no 'RED' warning issued - and then blame Met Éireann

Let's think about that for a minute.

SleetAndSnow

I agree with Oneiric here, they did give pretty good warning that it was going to be dangerous and as much as I hate to say it, the tabloids were issuing these aswell. Yes the 6 o clock weather report the day before was a bit of a farce, but if the majority of places are saying its going to be dangerous then listen to it and make an informed decision on if what you are about to do is safe or not.

No point in blaming met eireann here, they did warn a storm was coming and issued an orange alert and said it was dangerous. I mean the plouging left it till about an hour before opening to say they were closed, and were going to open later, even though it was still orange. Thats just borderline ridiculous, and the fact that schools were still going to send their students to it during an orange alert is even worse.

There needs to be more public education on the alert system, because at the moment its ridiculous. All the comments I saw were complaining about how the 6 counties are greyed out in North and similar. Comments like this '' Schools should not be open - putting pressure on parents to put education over safety! �� #stormali'' .. like no. If you think its that dangerous just don't send your child if you dont want them to risk their lives. They will get marked absent so what.

The fact Orange isn't taken seriously would be because Yellow is seen as 'business as normal' even though it isn't, as we saw in Cork here yesterday with me seeing a guy getting hit in the shoulder by a falling branch. It still isn't safe, and because of that Orange is the 'oh ok' tier rather then Yellow.

People really need to start thinking. To go out tiling a roof or doing something risky like climbing the side of a mountain during an orange is pure ignorance and all these people saying 'It was orange so I sent my kids to school', Orange has up to 130km/h wind gusts. Just imagine a car hitting you at 130km/h. Its dangerous.

Meh the way I layed this out most likely isn't the best but im typing on mobile so.

Tombo2001

SleetAndSnow wrote: »

I agree with Oneiric here, they did give pretty good warning that it was going to be dangerous and as much as I hate to say it, the tabloids were issuing these aswell. Yes the 6 o clock weather report the day before was a bit of a farce, but if the majority of places are saying its going to be dangerous then listen to it and make an informed decision on if what you are about to do is safe or not.

No point in blaming met eireann here, they did warn a storm was coming and issued an orange alert and said it was dangerous. I mean the plouging left it till about an hour before opening to say they were closed, and were going to open later, even though it was still orange. Thats just borderline ridiculous, and the fact that schools were still going to send their students to it during an orange alert is even worse. There needs to be more public education on the alert system, because at the moment its ridiculous. All the comments I saw were complaining about how the 6 counties are greyed out in North. The fact Orange isn't taken seriously would be because Yellow is seen as 'business as normal' even though it isn't, as we saw in Cork here yesterday with me seeing a guy getting hit in the shoulder by a falling branch. It still isn't safe, and because of that Orange is the 'oh ok' tier rather then Yellow.

People really need to start thinking. To go out tiling a roof or doing something risky like climbing the side of a mountain during an orange is pure ignorance and all these people saying 'It was orange so I sent my kids to school', Orange has up to 130km/h wind gusts. Just imagine a car hitting you at 130km/h. Its dangerous.

Meh the way I layed this out most likely isn't the best but im typing on mobile so.

The word 'dangerous' has been used twice in recent posts.

I cant see any mention of the word dangerous on the Met Eireann twitter page.

Artane2002

They said severe and damaging gusts, which is enough.

coillsaille

Sycamore Tree wrote: »

Where did you see little kids crying while walking to school? How little were they? How many?

Were they crying because school wasn't closed?

Don't know why I'm even replying as I feel no great need to prove what I saw just so you won't dismiss my viewpoint as "drama" or "hype".
But since you ask I saw little kids being walked to school by their parents around the Crescent crying because they were scared stiff and they were being hit in the face by flying twigs from the trees. Downed trees lay literally a few yards away.
But they're just part of the snowflake culture in your and other's eyes I'm sure.

SleetAndSnow

Tombo2001 wrote: »

The word 'dangerous' has been used twice in recent posts.

I cant see any mention of the word dangerous on the Met Eireann twitter page.

Dangerous meaning the words they have used. They used words such as 'Damaging Gusts', 'Damaging Winds', That gusts will be '120/130km/h for a while', from one of the papers : ''However while the orange alert has been lifted, Met Eireann have stressed that gusts will remain strong and potentially dangerous in many areas.''.

They posted countless times on twitter about the damaging gusts, there was articles posted everywhere about the storm and its damaging gusts. The 6 one news was a farce yes as I said.

If people can't make informed decisions based on the words 'damaging gusts' and '120/130 wind gusts' confuses me. I always imagine it as if a vehicle was driving that fast, such as a motorway, and being hit by it. Theres your informed decison, if YOU think its too dangerous after hearing that then be safe and dont go out.

NIMAN

I do worry about people who are waiting for Met Eireann to tell them whether they should leave the house or not.

Sycamore Tree

coillsaille wrote: »

Don't know why I'm even replying as I feel no great need to prove what I saw just so you won't dismiss my viewpoint as "drama" or "hype".
But since you ask I saw little kids being walked to school by their parents around the Crescent crying because they were scared stiff and they were being hit in the face by flying twigs from the trees. Downed trees lay literally a few yards away.
But they're just part of the snowflake culture in your and other's eyes I'm sure.

I would blame the parents for walking the children along a road with large trees (on one side for about 100m) when ME had an Orange alert with damaging gusts predicted. Who do you blame? Maybe the parents need to go to school?

Andy From Sligo

coillsaille wrote: »

Don't know why I'm even replying as I feel no great need to prove what I saw just so you won't dismiss my viewpoint as "drama" or "hype".
But since you ask I saw little kids being walked to school by their parents around the Crescent crying because they were scared stiff and they were being hit in the face by flying twigs from the trees. Downed trees lay literally a few yards away.
But they're just part of the snowflake culture in your and other's eyes I'm sure.

child abuse! - honestly could not the schools have closed as a precaution anyway? - a day of school especially primary - (or was this 15 year old kids being walked to school crying? ) is not going to make one iota of difference to their education in the scheme of things.

I have so many people to blame in that situation yesterday and I wont explain why but I blame (in order if u like):
Met Eireann
Teachers/principals
Parents

Doctor Jimbob

Tombo2001 wrote: »

The word 'dangerous' has been used twice in recent posts.

I cant see any mention of the word dangerous on the Met Eireann twitter page.

Met Eireann's description of an orange warning: "This category of ORANGE level weather warnings is for weather conditions which have the capacity to impact significantly on people in the affected areas. The issue of an Orange level weather warning implies that all recipients in the affected areas should prepare themselves in an appropriate way for the anticipated conditions."

The word "dangerous" might not specifically be used, but anyone who reads that and doesn't pick up that there might be dangerous weather conditions needs their head seen to.

ZX7R

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

child abuse! - honestly could not the schools have closed as a precaution anyway? - a day of school especially primary - (or was this 15 year old kids being walked to school crying? ) is not going to make one iota of difference to their education in the scheme of things.

I have so many people to blame in that situation yesterday and I wont explain why but I blame (in order if u like):
Met Eireann
Teachers/principals
Parents

Child abuse?????
This is the weather forum,most if not all of the regular posters here try to post relatively in facts and figures
Met earann issue weather advisory/warnings
They don't have any authority in closing of school or business.
In the case of an orange warning been issued its up to the principal of each school to monitor and access the warning and close school if deemed necessary.
Missed days can be back from holiday time
As a parent if I don't think it safe my children will stay at home no matter the warning is....

DOCARCH

Mod Note: I am deleting posts with speculation as to responsibility and the tragic event in Galway yesterday.

coillsaille

Sycamore Tree wrote: »

I would blame the parents for walking the children along a road with large trees (on one side for about 100m) when ME had an Orange alert with damaging gusts predicted. Who do you blame? Maybe the parents need to go to school?

If you read the thread you will see I already said earlier I don't know who is to blame ultimately. Obviously the parents should not have walked their kids through an area of trees in those weather conditions. But there is no intelligence test you have to pass to become a parent and, lets be frank, some are complete idiots.

Then some parents will only keep their kids at home if the school is closed. Most schools will only close if the department of education say so. The department will only say so if ME issue a red warning.
That does not mean I think ME are ultimately to blame. But that whole "chain of command" for want of a better phrase needs fixing in my opinion.

Andy From Sligo

NIMAN wrote: »

I do worry about people who are waiting for Met Eireann to tell them whether they should leave the house or not.

yeah its 2018 and we sent man into space decades ago .. and there is no built in electronics telling people not to go out - or i would build electronic locks on the front door, back door and windows linked to an outdoor weather station (the ones with the wind thing revolving on them) and when it wind gets to so many knots it locks all the doors and windows so people cant get out even if they wanted to venture out

Gaoth Laidir

I honestly believe the coloured warning should be scrapped and go back to the old way, stating "winds will reach strong gale to storm force tomorrow morning in the west and northwest, with damaging gusts". There is no confusion over colours, schools open or closed, etc. No postmortems. People know it'll get bloody windy in my area so cos I'm in the west.

At the moment all we hear on the news is "and Met Éireann have issued an orange wind warning for part of the country...". Anyone listening to that won't know where it's for. They need to physically go online to check the map/website for details, which many do, but also many don't. If I'm in the car I won't be checking the phone.

sdanseo

Well, Ali has had a lasting effect on my particular workplace. Yesterday we were without power for 5 hours. There's a generator but apparently half of Dublin's broadband also died so no computers since everything is in the cloud.

Then today, struck by lighting, power lines and a tree on fire. Cue three fire tenders.

If the place doesn't collapse tomorrow, we'll be lucky!

LoughNeagh2017

Things were rough in Ulster, the worst I remember in my 26 years in regards to wind, in regards to weather in general we usually have a constant grey sky and drizzle. The village of Toomebridge was without light until late at night which was an odd occurrence.

ZX7R

Gaoth Laidir wrote: »

I honestly believe the coloured warning should be scrapped and go back to the old way, stating "winds will reach strong gale to storm force tomorrow morning in the west and northwest, with damaging gusts". There is no confusion over colours, schools open or closed, etc. No postmortems. People know it'll get bloody windy in my area so cos I'm in the west.

At the moment all we hear on the news is "and Met Éireann have issued an orange wind warning for part of the country...". Anyone listening to that won't know where it's for. They need to physically go online to check the map/website for details, which many do, but also many don't. If I'm in the car I won't be checking the phone.

The coloured warnings won't be changed,as part of the metoalarm .EU all warnings have to be colorful coded the same ,idea been someone from France will understand warnings in Ireland and vise versa there is also a drawing of weather been warned for i.e a wind flag for winds snowflake for snow ect.
The criteria for each country can be changed taylored to individual countries

red sean

I believe there's nothing wrong with the colour code system. The problem is with people who choose to ignore warnings or are too stupid to realise they're being warned of actual danger, and then look to blame someone else when THEY make a bad call.
All in all I think we have a very good met service in Ireland.

M.T. Cranium

I get both sides of this debate about the orange/red thing, certainly agree it's essentially each person's own decision what to do given the forecasts (which were not the issue, it was the colour code that was the issue). On the other hand, I also get that parents will feel like they need to get their kids to school if school is open, and employees feel pressure to get into work, even if they can see for themselves that the actual conditions are more like red than orange would imply.

The problem was not in the forecasting but in the fact that orange level alerts for the late autumn/winter/early spring when trees are not all fully covered in leaves, cannot be just transferred to the season where trees are in foliage. So my suggestion would be to make that one change, perhaps lower the criteria for red alert by 10 km/hr from 15 April to 15 October so that a marginal situation like this one would qualify for red.

I'm sure they had the same discussion at the Met that I had in my own head and reported here, namely, looks like a general orange alert in west and north, but patches of red alert conditions here and there. So would any particular county have appeared better suited for red than orange given the forecast guidance. Maybe Galway, Mayo and Donegal, all of them were shown with winds somewhat in excess of even the pre-adjusted red alert. I guess the decision was taken that it would not be quite that bad and orange would be enough of a warning. With 20-20 hindsight we could say maybe red might have been the choice.

The other discussion is about whether to have colour codes at all, or just rely on the numbers and wording. But then you lose the automatic triggering of school and workplace closures. They might happen from the numbers but then the colour code is just there to alert the public as to what the numbers will mean to schools and employers. I'm not sure what other use it could have. You hear the day before that orange or red alert winds are coming, is there any situation in which you would say, well, it's only orange, I won't move the car away from the dodgy looking tree, if it was red, I would.

Another solution might be to go with a more detailed map than counties, perhaps in line with some levels of local government that I wouldn't know about living here, or just geographic areas that people could recognize as being exactly where they were. Then yesterday I think from the guidance some parts of Galway, Mayo and Donegal might have had red warnings. Whether that would have proven exactly right or not is speculation. Perhaps from now on it should be automatic to assume that any large-scale widespread orange alert must almost by the random distribution inherent in weather outcomes have some areas of red embedded in it. The only cases where this fails to happen, I think, would be those orange alerts that prove to be yellow alerts with bits of orange.

For some reason I am now hungry and must have dessert.

Graces7

red sean wrote: »

I believe there's nothing wrong with the colour code system. The problem is with people who choose to ignore warnings or are too stupid to realise they're being warned of actual danger, and then look to blame someone else when THEY make a bad call.
All in all I think we have a very good met service in Ireland.

add to that the bravado aspect. As if taking care is somehow wimpish, making a fuss about " a bit of wind."

better to be a live wimp than a dead dare devil.

coillsaille

Great summary of the situation MT and I couldn't agree more with your suggestions.

JCX BXC

I'm not sure lowering the flagpoles is the answer. Is a gust of 120km/h really worthy of a national shutdown?