HAP - Housing Assistance Program for landlords

Zascar

I have a small apartment which I have rented out. The tenant has been there for 5 years and is on social welfare. He has just got on to me saying they now want me to join the HAP system.

Initially he said it was optional, but now they are sayings its mandatory. Does anyone know if this is true? What exactly do I have to do and how does this affect me?

GGTrek

Zascar wrote: »

I have a small apartment which I have rented out. The tenant has been there for 5 years and is on social welfare. He has just got on to me saying they now want me to join the HAP system.

Initially he said it was optional, but now they are sayings its mandatory. Does anyone know if this is true? What exactly do I have to do and how does this affect me?

Do some search on this forum and on askaboutmoney about the implications of HAP on you and especially the dreaded inspection from the council. I am afraid you have no choice: welcome to socialist Ireland!

Gumbo

My tenant is on hap,for 2 years now. I haven’t received an inspection yet, unless the tenant hasn’t told me about one.

In any case, if your compliant, and the house is in good order, then you shouldn’t fear the inspection.

davo10

kceire wrote: »

My tenant is on hap,for 2 years now. I haven’t received an inspection yet, unless the tenant hasn’t told me about one.

In any case, if your compliant, and the house is in good order, then you shouldn’t fear the inspection.

A house can satisfy building regs, minimum standards for rental and be in good order, but still not meet criteria for HAP.

Op, the two biggest issues with HAP are.

1. Rent is paid in arrears so you have to inform your tenant that they need to continue to pay rent month in advance as per the lease. So, tenant must pay rent themselves on month the HAP starts, then the HAP payment at the end of that month becomes the rent in advance for the following month.

2. The tenant has to pay a monthly portion of the rent to the council, if they stop paying that, council will not make HAP payment to you. And the beauty is, due to GDPR, the council won't even tell you why they are not paying you.

The Student

davo10 wrote: »

A house can satisfy building regs, minimum standards for rental and be in good order, but still not meet criteria for HAP.

Op, the two biggest issues with HAP are.

1. Rent is paid in arrears so you have to inform your tenant that they need to continue to pay rent month in advance as per the lease. So, tenant must pay rent themselves on month the HAP starts, then the HAP payment at the end of that month becomes the rent in advance for the following month.

2. The tenant has to pay a monthly portion of the rent to the council, if they stop paying that, council will not make HAP payment to you. And the beauty is, due to GDPR, the council won't even tell you why they are not paying you.

Exactly, the HAP requirements are set too high and the refusal by the council to engage when the council stops paying the rent is the biggest issue I have.

Dr_Kolossus

Does anyone know, if for example after the inspection HAP say you need 10 k improvements but landlord cannot afford, is this a valid reason to break the lease?

Dr_Kolossus

Does anyone know, if for example after the inspection HAP say you need 10 k improvements but landlord cannot afford, is this a valid reason to break the lease?

Del2005

Dr_Kolossus wrote: »

Does anyone know, if for example after the inspection HAP say you need 10 k improvements but landlord cannot afford, is this a valid reason to break the lease?

They won't pay the rent so you'd have to start the eviction process. Even if it was €10 they can't force you to change your property to a higher standard than required for its age.

The Student

Dr_Kolossus wrote: »

Does anyone know, if for example after the inspection HAP say you need 10 k improvements but landlord cannot afford, is this a valid reason to break the lease?

I would expect it is a valid reason. As HAP will not make payment to you as your property does not meet standards. So you then issue a notice of termination to the tenant for non payment of rent.

Zascar

Thanks for the replies. Wow. ok this sucks. Are we sure this is mandetory - I definitely cannot refuse? Can I keep pushing it out maybe?

I have no idea what the standards are so I dont know if I can meet them - or what I will have to do if I fail. Can I get some advice or a pre inspection to see?

As mentioned above, what if the properly need huge money spent on it? I'm behind in my tax and need to get it sorted but how is that going to affect me?

Cuddlesworth

Zascar wrote: »

I definitely cannot refuse?

Housing assistance is a protected status under the Equal Status Act. Refusing it in any manner is now viewed as discrimination and carries large fines, all of which can happen far quicker then any other housing disputes.

You need to meet the minimum requirements for rented accommodation. Inspections are meant to happen within 8 months.

GGTrek

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

Zascar wrote: »

I definitely cannot refuse?

Housing assistance is a protected status under the Equal Status Act. Refusing it in any manner is now viewed as discrimination and carries large fines, all of which can happen far quicker then any other housing disputes.

You need to meet the minimum requirements for rented accommodation. Inspections are meant to happen within 8 months.

Not enough unfortunately for the Council inspectors, first of all get a full electrical inspection from a RECI certified electrician and any issue raised by the certified electrician has to be fixed asap (usually 28 days time!). The electrician will only work with the latest ETCI standards https://www.etci.ie/safety/nationalruleselectricalinstallations.html, if your electrical installation was completed before such date, good luck!

Loves_lorries

I think the fretting about council inspections are unwarranted although perhaps some are more reasonable than others, I was asked to do some silly things but they were not expensive and this is on a hundred year old plus house.

Overall I found it fine with Limerick city Council.

GGTrek

Loves_lorries wrote: »

I think the fretting about council inspections are unwarranted although perhaps some are more reasonable than others, I was asked to do some silly things but they were not expensive and this is on a hundred year old plus house.

Overall I found it fine with Limerick city Council.

Not Dublin City Council

The Student

GGTrek wrote: »

Not Dublin City Council

Completely agree. I had only painted my property from top to bottom internally and the inspector said they wanted it painted again as they did not like the color. It was magnolia and white.

Suffice to say I did not repaint and they still took the property.

Zascar

That's ridiculous. Mine is in wexford - what are they like?
What happens if you don't have a tax clearance cert?

Cuddlesworth

Zascar wrote: »

That's ridiculous. Mine is in wexford - what are they like?
What happens if you don't have a tax clearance cert?

5 months or up to 10k, then they stop paying you.

Turnipman

Zascar wrote: »

I have a small apartment which I have rented out. The tenant has been there for 5 years and is on social welfare. He has just got on to me saying they now want me to join the HAP system.

Initially he said it was optional, but now they are sayings its mandatory. Does anyone know if this is true? What exactly do I have to do and how does this affect me?

Wow. ok this sucks. Are we sure this is mandatory - I definitely cannot refuse?

I have no idea what the standards are so I dont know if I can meet them - or what I will have to do if I fail. Can I get some advice or a pre inspection to see?

As mentioned above, what if the properly need huge money spent on it? I'm behind in my tax and need to get it sorted but how is that going to affect me?

It's a bit like the Public Services Card - it's not mandatory, but you need to have one for most things! Yet another example of our dishonest government speaking with a forked tongue. Be sure to remember it when the next election comes around.


In the case of HAP, if you don't sign up (even though in theory it's not mandatory) then your tenant can take you to the WRC for discriminating against him.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/landlord-ordered-to-pay-more-than-42-000-to-three-tenants-1.3192606

jimmycrackcorm

Del2005 wrote:

They won't pay the rent so you'd have to start the eviction process. Even if it was €10 they can't force you to change your property to a higher standard than required for its age.

I think then that you would be able to refuse future HAP tenancies in the basis that following a failed inspection, you're not discriminating the tenants, just that it's proven that the property isn't suitable for HAP.

the_syco

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

I think then that you would be able to refuse future HAP tenancies in the basis that following a failed inspection, you're not discriminating the tenants, just that it's proven that the property isn't suitable for HAP.

From; https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/landlord-who-refused-rent-allowance-payment-from-struggling-family-ordered-to-pay-14000-869851.html

He said: “The judgement is particularly welcome because it shows that the WRC will not accept secondary issues – such as failure to have a tax clearance cert – as an excuse for not accepting HAP tenants.

The part I bolded; could failure to update the house to HAP standards also be a secondary issue?

Del2005

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

I think then that you would be able to refuse future HAP tenancies in the basis that following a failed inspection, you're not discriminating the tenants, just that it's proven that the property isn't suitable for HAP.

You can't refuse a HAP tenant because they made it a discrimination offence and no private landlord can afford to fight it.

But it raises an interesting question. Can you advertise a property as not meeting HAP standards? They can't force a landlord to make a property meet standards above those required for its age and minimum rental standards, so what happens if a tenant wants to rent a property that doesn't meet the HAP requirements but is in compliance with every other regulation? You can't refuse them but can never get rent.

madwidow

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

5 months or up to 10k, then they stop paying you.

How do they go about the Cert please? Do i need to provide it on my own accord or wait till they request it and privide it then?

madwidow

The Student wrote: »

Completely agree. I had only painted my property from top to bottom internally and the inspector said they wanted it painted again as they did not like the color. It was magnolia and white.

Suffice to say I did not repaint and they still took the property.

Dont think wall color was on the minimum standard list...

Inspections are outsoursed and it can take 2 months to get the report back cause they process the findings in bulk for post

davo10

the_syco wrote: »

From; https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/landlord-who-refused-rent-allowance-payment-from-struggling-family-ordered-to-pay-14000-869851.html

The part I bolded; could failure to update the house to HAP standards also be a secondary issue?

The case seemed to hinge on the fact that he refused HAP, then later tried to use the Tax Compliance Cert as an excuse after issuing notice to evict.

What he should have done was accept HAP, then informed the Council that he was unable to provide a cert, it would then have been the council's decision not to approve HAP payment. Same would apply to updating house, accept HAP, let inspectors do their business, then inform Council you cannot afford update costs. It is the Council's decision then to refuse HAP to tenant, not the landlord's.

Landlord made stupid mistake by refusing HAP day one, he should accept immediately, of course he would be happy to accept HAP, then let Council take the heat if they refuse to pay HAP if LL is not in a position to provide a cert or update house.

The_Conductor

Two of the bigger issues with HAP from the perspective of a landlord are:

1. Its paid in arrears, not advance- unlike any other tenancy.
2. If a tenant stops making their payment to the local authority- regardless of how much their portion of the rent is- the local authority yank the entire payment from the landlord- not just the portion the tenant doesn't make- and it can easily take 4-6 months to restore HAP- which may or may not be backdated to include all the period during which it was not paid.

Essentially- its a risk free scheme for local authorities- all the risk is pushed back on the landlords- and they have had to put it on a statutory footing- because under normal market conditions no-one running a business would accept the risk it entails.

Its a brilliant scheme for the local authorities- absolutely wonderful- its not great for tenants- and landlords absolutely hate it.

The Student

madwidow wrote: »

Dont think wall color was on the minimum standard list...

Inspections are outsoursed and it can take 2 months to get the report back cause they process the findings in bulk for post

Needed to put vents in the bedroom but they wanted the house repainted aswell.

madwidow

The Student wrote: »

Needed to put vents in the bedroom but they wanted the house repainted aswell.

Dont understand the hang up with the color. Atleast vents can go against improvements. I got 2 items over the phone thankfully. Report nowhere in sight yet

Foweva Awone

Is the Homeless HAP a more appealing prospect for landlords? Possibly because they pay rent monthly in advance, and they pay the first two months rent along with the deposit. I recently rented an apartment this way, didn't have any trouble getting a place, not sure if I was just lucky or if the fact that it was Homeless HAP that went in my favour. (If anything, I thought it would make things more difficult for me!)

K.Flyer

Del2005 wrote: »

They won't pay the rent so you'd have to start the eviction process. Even if it was €10 they can't force you to change your property to a higher standard than required for its age.

You can only start the process if there is a valid reason.
HAP not engaging is not a valid reason.
The tenant may still be able to continue to pay the rent. If you are still receiving your rent and the tenant is not causing any difficulties and is happy to stay, what grounds would you have for eviction.

marieholmfan

Not true it has two significant advantages.
1. The tenant can 'top it up'
2. The non topped up part is paid directly to the landlord.

As regards the tenants non payment of their portion of HAP the landlord should vet his tenants.

The_Conductor wrote: »

Two of the bigger issues with HAP from the perspective of a landlord are:

1. Its paid in arrears, not advance- unlike any other tenancy.
2. If a tenant stops making their payment to the local authority- regardless of how much their portion of the rent is- the local authority yank the entire payment from the landlord- not just the portion the tenant doesn't make- and it can easily take 4-6 months to restore HAP- which may or may not be backdated to include all the period during which it was not paid.

Essentially- its a risk free scheme for local authorities- all the risk is pushed back on the landlords- and they have had to put it on a statutory footing- because under normal market conditions no-one running a business would accept the risk it entails.

Its a brilliant scheme for the local authorities- absolutely wonderful- its not great for tenants- and landlords absolutely hate it.

davo10

marieholmfan wrote: »

Not true it has two significant advantages.
1. The tenant can 'top it up'
2. The non topped up part is paid directly to the landlord.

As regards the tenants non payment of their portion of HAP the landlord should vet his tenants.

I'm pretty sure the tenant contribution to rent is paid to the Council, and if the tenant stops paying it, the Council will not pay the HAP to the LL.