Planning permission up for greenway from Youghal to Midleton

mordeith

Cork Trucker wrote: »

This might be what is needed to kick it into life again.

I assume if there are enough objections, then they can't build the greenway on the line? I'm liasing with some people on how to formally object to it. It's a rarity that I agree with any political party, but the Greens are bang on with this one (for once).

Highly unlikely. The Midleton line cost in the region of 75 million. The Youghal line is nearly twice that distance and would require more infrastructure. It's highly unlikely that it's going to happen and people objecting to a greenway is certainly not going to increase the incredibly slim chances.

From Evening Echo 19 May

"Irish Rail conducted a feasibility study several years ago and reported that it would not be financially viable to re-open the Youghal line.

Since it closed, 7km of the track has been removed for use on a different line and the cost of reopening the service would likely be substantial.

Instead, Irish Rail is proposing to lease the land to Cork County Council for the Greenway."

Nukem

Always thought it was a bloody waste to have that railway/land lying idle. Glad to see someone is thinking of using it, in any capacity tbh.

A greenway would really open up the towns to cyclists and the likes, but also give them somewhere safe to cycle. The road at the moment (from a drivers perspective) must be pretty hairy when cycling.

On the other hand a rail service would service thousands of journeys per year and alleviate traffic from a constrained road. Would have reservations for costs of travel and efficiency for a commuter, based on irish rail (IMO). There is a massive under investment in rail services in Ireland and increasing prices will not change that - needs to be subsidized further to get commuters on.

Either way I’m delighted it’s moving

ontheditch2

The problem with Cork unlike other major cities serviced by rail lines is the hit and miss pubic transport at the other side to get people to work.
Anyone who has travelled from East cork during morning or evening rush hour traffic, notices the backlogs at the tunnel.
I'd say a majority of people travelling up the N25 are not going to the city centre.
During the winter months, how many people will gladly get the train to cork for work, then walk 10/15 minutes to their bus stop to hop on a bus to go to mahon/curraheen/Bishopstown etc.
Very very few.
A train would be highly convenient for those working in the city centre, but I'd say that percentage is rather small.

A greenway would be a great venture and a brilliant amenity for the people in east cork.

questionmark?

mordeith wrote: »

Highly unlikely. The Midleton line cost in the region of 75 million. The Youghal line is nearly twice that distance and would require more infrastructure. It's highly unlikely that it's going to happen and people objecting to a greenway is certainly not going to increase the incredibly slim chances.

Didn't that 75 million figure include the upgrading of all stations and signals on the Cork to Cobh line as well as re-opening Glounthaune to Midleton?

mordeith

questionmark? wrote: »

Didn't that 75 million figure include the upgrading of all stations and signals on the Cork to Cobh line as well as re-opening Glounthaune to Midleton?

Not sure.

deRanged

It did, and platforms too.

whisky_galore

mordeith wrote: »

Highly unlikely. The Midleton line cost in the region of 75 million. The Youghal line is nearly twice that distance and would require more infrastructure. It's highly unlikely that it's going to happen and people objecting to a greenway is certainly not going to increase the incredibly slim chances.

From Evening Echo 19 May

"Irish Rail conducted a feasibility study several years ago and reported that it would not be financially viable to re-open the Youghal line.

Since it closed, 7km of the track has been removed for use on a different line and the cost of reopening the service would likely be substantial.

Instead, Irish Rail is proposing to lease the land to Cork County Council for the Greenway."

People never seem to question the cost of a greenway...as if, like roads, they cost nothing! But they'll moan endlessly about the cost of putting in public transport.

mordeith

whisky_galore wrote: »

People never seem to question the cost of a greenway...as if, like roads, they cost nothing! But they'll moan endlessly about the cost of putting in public transport.

Nobody is moaning about the cost of either. It's Irish Rail who said it would be cost prohibitive. The railway is not going to happen so people are just happy that the greenway is. Everyone would be equally happy with the railway but as it's not happening might as well do something useful with it.

marno21

mordeith wrote: »

Nobody is moaning about the cost of either. It's Irish Rail who said it would be cost prohibitive. The railway is not going to happen so people are just happy that the greenway is. Everyone would be equally happy with the railway but as it's not happening might as well do something useful with it.

If the public takes on that mindset it certainly won't happen.

mordeith

marno21 wrote: »

If the public takes on that mindset it certainly won't happen.

Yeah, because that's been really effective in getting it back up and running.

whisky_galore

mordeith wrote: »

Nobody is moaning about the cost of either. It's Irish Rail who said it would be cost prohibitive. The railway is not going to happen so people are just happy that the greenway is. Everyone would be equally happy with the railway but as it's not happening might as well do something useful with it.

There were those within Irish rail that didn't want to reopen Midleton, but Midleton is a hell of a lot more proactive than Youghal will ever be. I shouldn't think that all those who commute out of Midleton/Carrogtwohill would be pleased with a lousy greenway to connect them to the city. But the 'ah shur it'll be great for the kids' is the prevailing mindset amongst Facebook moms and dads these days whilst bussing them everywhere.

mordeith

whisky_galore wrote: »

There were those within Irish rail that didn't want to reopen Midleton, but Midleton is a hell of a lot more proactive than Youghal will ever be. I shouldn't think that all those who commute out of Midleton/Carrogtwohill would be pleased with a lousy greenway to connect them to the city. But the 'ah shur it'll be great for the kids' is the prevailing mindset amongst Facebook moms and dads these days whilst bussing them everywhere.

So you think these Facebook parents (whatever that means) are controlling the interests of Irish Rail? I mean what exactly is people's problem here. Irish Rail can take the Greenway back. It remains their property. If they decide to reopen the line at some stage in the future it will a lot easier to do that from a Greenway than its current condition. The public are not preventing the reopening of the line. It's a financial decision that Irish Rail have decided is not viable.

Cork Trucker

Any idea when we will get to find out what is happening?

mordeith

Cork Trucker wrote: »

Any idea when we will get to find out what is happening?

I think submissions closed at the end of October so maybe sometime in early January?

namloc1980

Railway to Youghal isn't viable. It's hard enough to get people living in Carrigtwohill and Midleton to leave the cars behind and take the train. Greenway will be good for Youghal and it also protects the alignment in a usable state of it ever became viable in the future.

Bacchus

namloc1980 wrote: »

Railway to Youghal isn't viable. It's hard enough to get people living in Carrigtwohill and Midleton to leave the cars behind and take the train. Greenway will be good for Youghal and it also protects the alignment in a usable state of it ever became viable in the future.

I appreciate that point but IMO, you'll NEVER get people to leaves the cars behind if there's no alternative.

The government spend so much subsidizing free travel passes for OAPs, could some sort of subsidy not be extended for these kind of rail links for employees travelling to/from work. Surely that would be a positive thing for reducing pressure on housing in the city center, reducing pressure on buckling road infrastructure, and (added bonus) meeting carbon emissions targets (at least showing the EU "hey look, we're doing something"). I don't really care if Irish Rail don't think it's viable, it's necessary for the long term and if it's made affordable and reliable, people will use it. At the moment, all we get is the "stick" with more tax put on petrol/diesel as if that will magic away carbon emissions. There has to be a carrot that people can move towards too.

Also, any hope of a rail corridor in the future will be met with even more resistance if a popular greenway is put in place and then threatened to be removed.... unless there is the space for both along the route?

pukeko

Bacchus wrote: »

Also, any hope of a rail corridor in the future will be met with even more resistance if a popular greenway is put in place and then threatened to be removed.... unless there is the space for both along the route?

I disagree... most people in favour of a greenway now are not in any way opposed to a rail link, or would be opposed to "upgrading" the greenway to a rail link in the future. It's the best use of the land at the current time.

I live along the line and work in Cork city. I would be thrilled if in 10, 20, 30 whatever years time it was decided to reopen the rail line.

(the rest of your post i agree with btw, there is currently no incentive for commuters to leave the cars at home)

Bacchus

pukeko wrote: »

I disagree... most people in favour of a greenway now are not in any way opposed to a rail link, or would be opposed to "upgrading" the greenway to a rail link in the future. It's the best use of the land at the current time.

I live along the line and work in Cork city. I would be thrilled if in 10, 20, 30 whatever years time it was decided to reopen the rail line.

(the rest of your post i agree with btw, there is currently no incentive for commuters to leave the cars at home)

If it's possible to develop the greenway but in a way that it can remain should the rail line open up, I'd like to see that happen. It'd be a best of both worlds solution. My worry is that if it's "one or the other" and we get the greenway, it'll be hard to turn people around to the idea of getting rid of it. The mindset now towards both proposals will shift once people have had a decade or so enjoying a greenway. Maybe I'm wrong on that but I'm worried that once a greenway goes in it'll be difficult to remove.

I also live along the line, and though I don't work in the city center with my current job, there are plenty of companies I could work for in the city center. Getting the train would be a real option for me in that case. I wouldn't be happy to wait 20 or 30 years though for that to happen... I'll be close to retirement! :eek:

BTW, I'm also very much looking forward to the greenway if it goes ahead. It'll be a fantastic addition to east Cork... I just think a rail corridor is the bigger priority.

marno21

If the greenway is built and the rail line becomes viable, the people in Youghal will want a railway as it is more useful to them and the people in Midleton will want to retain the greenway because it will be more useful to them. Then you have a divide and politicians trying to pander to both sides and you end up with a fudge.

Liam Quaide was on 96FM about the railway about 2 weeks ago and the response was very pro-railway.

We don't need greenways on every rail corridor in Ireland, especially ones that are of use. There aren't many rail links into Cork anymore because they've all been ripped up and I don't believe that ripping up another one is a prudent move.

Both the Youghal demand and the potential for a new P&R off the proposed N25 Midleton-Youghal dual carraigeway would be a lot better than a greenway.

The way things are going we'll soon have people campaigning for active railways to be shut down so we can have greenways.

namloc1980

Bacchus wrote: »

I appreciate that point but IMO, you'll NEVER get people to leaves the cars behind if there's no alternative.

The government spend so much subsidizing free travel passes for OAPs, could some sort of subsidy not be extended for these kind of rail links for employees travelling to/from work. Surely that would be a positive thing for reducing pressure on housing in the city center, reducing pressure on buckling road infrastructure, and (added bonus) meeting carbon emissions targets (at least showing the EU "hey look, we're doing something"). I don't really care if Irish Rail don't think it's viable, it's necessary for the long term and if it's made affordable and reliable, people will use it. At the moment, all we get is the "stick" with more tax put on petrol/diesel as if that will magic away carbon emissions. There has to be a carrot that people can move towards too.

Also, any hope of a rail corridor in the future will be met with even more resistance if a popular greenway is put in place and then threatened to be removed.... unless there is the space for both along the route?

There already is a subsidy for working commuters called taxsaver. Up to 50% saving on commuter tickets.

Bacchus

namloc1980 wrote: »

There already is a subsidy for working commuters called taxsaver. Up to 50% saving on commuter tickets.

I meant more the variety that helps fund rail routes as opposed to putting money in people's pockets. As in, the ticket costs the customer X, but the route is supported with public money as well. I probably didn't explain that well. I just mean that Irish Rail say the route is not sustainable, so why not use public money for this route (and other similar routes around the country) to put in place good, reliable rail links that will encourage more adoption of them and thereby help get us out of the race to sink every rail route in the country.

deRanged

Irish Rail is running passenger count surveys at the moment, so better information on numbers using Midleton to Cork might emerge.

questionmark?

deRanged wrote: »

Irish Rail is running passenger count surveys at the moment, so better information on numbers using Midleton to Cork might emerge.

Why use surveys!! Can they not simply count the number of tickets sold including number of tag on/off of Leap Cards.

mordeith

questionmark? wrote: »

Why use surveys!! Can they not simply count the number of tickets sold including number of tag on/off of Leap Cards.

They would want to know the regularity of repeat users versus occasional users

namloc1980

Bacchus wrote: »

I meant more the variety that helps fund rail routes as opposed to putting money in people's pockets. As in, the ticket costs the customer X, but the route is supported with public money as well. I probably didn't explain that well. I just mean that Irish Rail say the route is not sustainable, so why not use public money for this route (and other similar routes around the country) to put in place good, reliable rail links that will encourage more adoption of them and thereby help get us out of the race to sink every rail route in the country.

Irish Rail already gets a subsidy from the state to run routes, €115m in 2017. It comes down to resources and priorities. Opening the rail line to Youghal will cost €Xm in capex plus €Ym every year in a subvention. Is that better value for money than say reopening the Navan rail line into Dublin or redoing the N25?

In Cork alone I can think of numerous projects that I would put ahead of the train from Youghal to Midleton on a list of priorities. BusConnects, BRT/LRT corridor, North ring road, expansion of the existing suburban rail (higher frequency/more stations).

deRanged

they were counting total passengers, with numbers in and out at each station.

Leap cards and tickets won't be all that accurate, a fair few people get scanned in and out by Irish rail staff.

questionmark?

deRanged wrote: »

they were counting total passengers, with numbers in and out at each station.

Leap cards and tickets won't be all that accurate, a fair few people get scanned in and out by Irish rail staff.

Single and day return tickets are fully accurate as they can just count the numbers sold on a giving day.

The leap card I suppose people may not tag off or on at intermediate stations but should be fully accounted for in Kent itself with barriers in place.

Cork Trucker

questionmark? wrote: »

Why use surveys!! Can they not simply count the number of tickets sold including number of tag on/off of Leap Cards.

I assume it is to take into account free travel pass holders also? They don't tag on/off like leap card users.

whisky_galore

marno21 wrote: »

The way things are going we'll soon have people campaigning for active railways to be shut down so we can have greenways.

There is at least one numpty running a FB group doing exactly that.

Cork Trucker

Any official updates on this?