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Planning permission up for greenway from Youghal to Midleton

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    #62
    deRanged
    Registered Users Posts: 3,744 ✭✭✭deRanged


    first thing I've seen in ages. Cork County Council will vote on it next week.
    link


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    #63
    Cork Trucker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,553 ✭✭✭Cork Trucker


    deRanged wrote: »
    first thing I've seen in ages. Cork County Council will vote on it next week.
    link

    We all know how that will go, appeals are possible.


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    #64
    deRanged
    Registered Users Posts: 3,744 ✭✭✭deRanged


    Voted yes, unanimously. On to the next hurdle.


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    #65
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,409 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    deRanged wrote: »
    Voted yes, unanimously. On to the next hurdle.
    It'll be super come 2030 when a train to the booming Cork city centre with reduced car access becomes viable from Youghal and there's a proposal to reopen the railway. Then all the Midleton people kick up a fuss and the plan is dropped because of political concerns. Youghal is the one that gets screwed.

    Youghal is close enough to Cork to be a commuter town, it's not of sufficient scale to be able to develop independently. It's closer to Cork than Drogheda is to Dublin for instance.


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    #66
    Cork Trucker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,553 ✭✭✭Cork Trucker


    marno21 wrote: »
    It'll be super come 2030 when a train to the booming Cork city centre with reduced car access becomes viable from Youghal and there's a proposal to reopen the railway. Then all the Midleton people kick up a fuss and the plan is dropped because of political concerns. Youghal is the one that gets screwed.

    Youghal is close enough to Cork to be a commuter town, it's not of sufficient scale to be able to develop independently. It's closer to Cork than Drogheda is to Dublin for instance.

    The 200 or so who showed up to the Walter Raleigh Hotel need to lodge appeals. If ground breaks on this then that's it.


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    #67
    deRanged
    Registered Users Posts: 3,744 ✭✭✭deRanged


    There were over 300 submissions on the greenway idea, so there will be strong voices for and against. I don't think it's anywhere near done and dusted yet.

    I also read that they changed the plans to have the entrance from the train station in Midleton. I'm amazed that anywhere else was considered in the first place.


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    #68
    Cork Trucker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,553 ✭✭✭Cork Trucker


    deRanged wrote: »
    There were over 300 submissions on the greenway idea, so there will be strong voices for and against. I don't think it's anywhere near done and dusted yet.

    I also read that they changed the plans to have the entrance from the train station in Midleton. I'm amazed that anywhere else was considered in the first place.

    Will it be appealed to ABP i wonder or even a judicial review. All for having rail and trail side by side though.


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    #69
    mordeith
    Registered Users Posts: 5,278 ✭✭✭mordeith


    The fact that the Greenway is approved on the basis that it can be reverted to other purposes would suggest any appeals would not be successful. Have a Greenway now and if a railway is viable in the future go back to that.


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    #70
    whisky_galore
    Registered Users Posts: 16,269 ✭✭✭✭whisky_galore


    mordeith wrote: »
    The fact that the Greenway is approved on the basis that it can be reverted to other purposes would suggest any appeals would not be successful. Have a Greenway now and if a railway is viable in the future go back to that.

    Once a greenway always a greenway, evidence from the UK suggests that reverting to a railway almost never happens even if there is a business case for reopening.
    Regarding Youghal, I think it was a foregone conclusion that they would vote for a greenway, there's little appetite in Ireland for public transport even for the greater good. Even the Luas works were greeted with whinging that business would be affected. Dublin would choke in traffic without it now.
    Irish Rail had to be dragged kicking and screaming to rebuild to Midleton, where would we be without that now??


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    #71
    pukeko
    Registered Users Posts: 45 ✭pukeko


    Fantastic news! Will be a great additional piece of infrastructure for the area on unused land. Broadband \ utility ducting provided for in the planning also.


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    #72
    Cork Trucker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,553 ✭✭✭Cork Trucker


    whisky_galore wrote: »
    Once a greenway always a greenway, evidence from the UK suggests that reverting to a railway almost never happens even if there is a business case for reopening.
    Regarding Youghal, I think it was a foregone conclusion that they would vote for a greenway, there's little appetite in Ireland for public transport even for the greater good. Even the Luas works were greeted with whinging that business would be affected. Dublin would choke in traffic without it now.
    Irish Rail had to be dragged kicking and screaming to rebuild to Midleton, where would we be without that now??

    The need to be dragged kicking and screaming to do the rest of it as well.


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    #73
    whisky_galore
    Registered Users Posts: 16,269 ✭✭✭✭whisky_galore


    Cork Trucker wrote: »
    The need to be dragged kicking and screaming to do the rest of it as well.

    Youghal isn't as proactive as Midleton.
    Look at the state of the place. That Perks place that greets you on the approach to the town, with the broken cartoon characters on the facade, right next to abject dereliction looks like something out of the former USSR. Elsewhere, peeling paint, ugly apartments and boarded up dreadfulness. The beach down by Red Barn is full of rubbish that's been there for years.


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    #74
    Cork Trucker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,553 ✭✭✭Cork Trucker


    whisky_galore wrote: »
    Youghal isn't as proactive as Midleton.
    Look at the state of the place. That Perks place that greets you on the approach to the town, with the broken cartoon characters on the facade, right next to abject dereliction looks like something out of the former USSR. Elsewhere, peeling paint, ugly apartments and boarded up dreadfulness. The beach down by Red Barn is full of rubbish that's been there for years.

    Youghal is in bad need of investment, the train service would have kick started that, god knows Bus Eireann provide a poor service that is either late or never shows up. I know perks well and recall it when it was located by the beach itself prior to the apartments being built.

    The Midleton line isn't all that fantastic either, not even turning a profit, but it still has a good service that can avoid the congested N25.

    Closing railways to open greenways is not the way to get people to shift from private cars to public transport, trains are far more reliable and no traffic either.


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    #75
    mordeith
    Registered Users Posts: 5,278 ✭✭✭mordeith


    Cork Trucker wrote: »

    The Midleton line isn't all that fantastic either, not even turning a profit,

    How do you get past this point though when it comes to reinstating railways?


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    #76
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,409 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    There are no profitable railways in Ireland. Profitability isn't a factor here


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    #77
    questionmark?
    Registered Users Posts: 3,074 ✭✭✭questionmark?


    Cork Trucker wrote: »

    The Midleton line isn't all that fantastic either, not even turning a profit, but it still has a good service that can avoid the congested N25.

    Name a railway that turns a profit in ireland?
    Midleton and Cobh lines are doing quite well and continue to get more and more popular.
    The line to Youghal would simply cost too much to serve too few people. The priority in Cork suburban rail is the planned/proposed stations at Midleton West (in middle of zoned land for 5k houses) , Carrigtowhill West in the IDA park, Tivoli (long term as part of plans for housing there) and Blackpool. All of these are way ahead in importance than re-opening Youghal.


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    #78
    Cork Trucker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,553 ✭✭✭Cork Trucker


    marno21 wrote: »
    There are no profitable railways in Ireland. Profitability isn't a factor here
    questionmark? wrote: »
    Name a railway that turns a profit in ireland?
    Midleton and Cobh lines are doing quite well and continue to get more and more popular.
    The line to Youghal would simply cost too much to serve too few people. The priority in Cork suburban rail is the planned/proposed stations at Midleton West (in middle of zoned land for 5k houses) , Carrigtowhill West in the IDA park, Tivoli (long term as part of plans for housing there) and Blackpool. All of these are way ahead in importance than re-opening Youghal.

    Marno21 saved me answering the first bit of your question.

    The saying was always that as long as the Cobh railway stays open there is hope for Youghal.

    Mogeely,Killeagh,Castlemartyr & Youghal have all grown extensively in the last 30 years, further growth likely to happen in the next 30, i don't buy into an IR study that shows it wouldn't be feasible, it's what they want themselves.

    The Blackpool station is shelved permanently in all but name, Kenneth O'Flynn the Cllr confirmed this to me in an email.

    Carrigtwohill will happen.

    Tivoli is going to be held up in part by the M28 being delayed possibly, while everything may transfer to Ringaskiddy pre M28, it won't be as efficient as people would want without the motorway, that is for the M28 thread though.


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    #79
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,409 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    Cork Trucker wrote: »
    Marno21 saved me answering the first bit of your question.

    The saying was always that as long as the Cobh railway stays open there is hope for Youghal.

    Mogeely,Killeagh,Castlemartyr & Youghal have all grown extensively in the last 30 years, further growth likely to happen in the next 30, i don't buy into an IR study that shows it wouldn't be feasible, it's what they want themselves.

    The Blackpool station is shelved permanently in all but name, Kenneth O'Flynn the Cllr confirmed this to me in an email.

    Carrigtwohill will happen.

    Tivoli is going to be held up in part by the M28 being delayed possibly, while everything may transfer to Ringaskiddy pre M28, it won't be as efficient as people would want without the motorway, that is for the M28 thread though.

    The short to medium plans for the Cork Suburban Rail network will become clear when the CMATS policy document is published. It is 100% going to include further railway stations on the suburban network, but the exact ones are still up in the area. Some pick from Blackpool/Kilbarry, Tivoli, Dunkettle, Carrigtwohill West, Amgen site (pending development there), Watergate.


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    #80
    pukeko
    Registered Users Posts: 45 ✭pukeko


    Cork Trucker wrote: »
    Youghal is in bad need of investment, the train service would have kick started that, god knows Bus Eireann provide a poor service that is either late or never shows up. I know perks well and recall it when it was located by the beach itself prior to the apartments being built.

    The Midleton line isn't all that fantastic either, not even turning a profit, but it still has a good service that can avoid the congested N25.

    Closing railways to open greenways is not the way to get people to shift from private cars to public transport, trains are far more reliable and no traffic either.

    There is no doubt Youghal is in dire need to investment. Growing tourism in the area would be one way to kick start that. Let the track become a greenway, get people visiting the area again, and spending money, and then lets see what comes of that.


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    #81
    Cork Trucker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,553 ✭✭✭Cork Trucker


    pukeko wrote: »
    There is no doubt Youghal is in dire need to investment. Growing tourism in the area would be one way to kick start that. Let the track become a greenway, get people visiting the area again, and spending money, and then lets see what comes of that.

    It won't mirror the success of the Deise Greenway, this is part of what Cork County Council are going on.


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    #82
    pukeko
    Registered Users Posts: 45 ✭pukeko


    Cork Trucker wrote: »
    It won't mirror the success of the Deise Greenway, this is part of what Cork County Council are going on.

    Perhaps not but that's not a good enough reason not to invest and leave the track abandoned and unused. Why not try something to improve the locality for the community and visitors. If it attracts any bit of business growth and tourism activity along the line it will have been worth it.


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    #83
    whisky_galore
    Registered Users Posts: 16,269 ✭✭✭✭whisky_galore


    Cork Trucker wrote: »
    It won't mirror the success of the Deise Greenway, this is part of what Cork County Council are going on.

    A clear copycat job of what's across the border, at least Dungarvan has had its act together pre greenway, a fine town square, minimal dereliction, some restaurants and pubs that the visitor would be inclined to linger in. Youghal doesn't have anything as appealing and I doubt a greenway would encourage it out of its slumber and make something of itself.


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    #84
    JonathonS
    Registered Users Posts: 702 ✭✭✭JonathonS


    whisky_galore wrote: »
    Youghal doesn't have anything as appealing and I doubt a greenway would encourage it out of its slumber and make something of itself.

    That is unfair and not true - at least according to the Tidy Towns adjudicators: https://www.tidytowns.ie/u_reports/2017/2017%20County%20Cork_South%20Youghal%20600.pdf

    Quote: "The stunning coastal location, rich history, unique buildings and elevated setting provide Youghal with an enviable range of attractions and we were delighted to see that your committee (and volunteers) with the support of the Council, local businesses and community are working hard. . . etc etc"

    Having said that I weep every time I pass the block of flats that overlook the strand. The people who were responsible for "designing" and building them have a lot to answer for. As for whoever gave them planning permission - what were they thinking?


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    #85
    Bacchus
    Registered Users Posts: 4,701 ✭✭✭Bacchus


    To add to JonathonS's post, while I agree that Youghal needs regeneration, it has a couple of things going for it that could be added to easily. It already has a fantastic beach front and boardwalk... which will probably be the most attractive scenery connected to this route (is there anything of note along the route itself?) and therefore a nice end point (or starting point). If I'm not mistaken, the Walter Raleigh hotel was refurbished in the last 2 years too which at least puts some beach front luxury in the heart of Youghal again. Priory Coffee in the town is a fantastic cafe for those passing through (they've even opened a branch in Cork City and Mallow). I've not been but my wife has said great things about the Regal cinema that offers a bit of a different cinema experience to the likes of Omniplex.

    Sure, it's not a big list but it's not nothing, and you'd hope Youghal would seize the opportunity to make the extra push and give people more reasons to stop for a visit.

    I've never really been behind the greenway idea (preferring a rail line) but if this is what's going in, I wish it every success and I look forward to making use of it (especially considering how closely it'll pass by where I live). If it help Youghal in any way, then yay to that.


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    #86
    hans aus dtschl
    Registered Users Posts: 3,166 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl


    Cork Trucker wrote: »
    The saying was always that as long as the Cobh railway stays open there is hope for Youghal.

    Mogeely,Killeagh,Castlemartyr & Youghal have all grown extensively in the last 30 years, further growth likely to happen in the next 30, i don't buy into an IR study that shows it wouldn't be feasible, it's what they want themselves.

    The Blackpool station is shelved permanently in all but name, Kenneth O'Flynn the Cllr confirmed this to me in an email.

    Carrigtwohill will happen.

    Tivoli is going to be held up in part by the M28 being delayed possibly, while everything may transfer to Ringaskiddy pre M28, it won't be as efficient as people would want without the motorway, that is for the M28 thread though.

    Cobh is about a half the distance of Youghal, with significant harbour enterprise areas along the route. The Midleton-Youghal stretch is largely farmland. I've said it before on here, if Mogeely gets a large expansion (similar to the Waterrock development) then there will be some hope for the Youghal line, but not before then. Killeagh and Youghal might have expanded but nowhere near enough and with nowhere near enough density to justify a railway.

    Regarding "IR don't want to..." they have been burned by poor business justification where reality did not meet projections (Midleton for instance). They answer to the government and must think of opportunity cost as they do not have unlimited funding. If they were to open Youghal, then it would be at the expense of Carrigtwohill, Kilbarry, Dunkettle P&R, etc. This would represent poor decision making on their part and heads should roll in that circumstance. I believe that's why it's been ruled out: not because of a lack of willingness.

    As far as I am aware, the port is currently planning its move regardless of the M28: they believe they will free up Tivoli, paving the way for the City expansion there.

    The Cork MATS drawings include a Blackpool/Kilbarry station: I don't think it's a dead duck at all.


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    #87
    pukeko
    Registered Users Posts: 45 ✭pukeko


    Bacchus wrote: »
    To add to JonathonS's post, while I agree that Youghal needs regeneration, it has a couple of things going for it that could be added to easily. It already has a fantastic beach front and boardwalk... which will probably be the most attractive scenery connected to this route (is there anything of note along the route itself?) and therefore a nice end point (or starting point). If I'm not mistaken, the Walter Raleigh hotel was refurbished in the last 2 years too which at least puts some beach front luxury in the heart of Youghal again. Priory Coffee in the town is a fantastic cafe for those passing through (they've even opened a branch in Cork City and Mallow). I've not been but my wife has said great things about the Regal cinema that offers a bit of a different cinema experience to the likes of Omniplex.

    Sure, it's not a big list but it's not nothing, and you'd hope Youghal would seize the opportunity to make the extra push and give people more reasons to stop for a visit.

    I've never really been behind the greenway idea (preferring a rail line) but if this is what's going in, I wish it every success and I look forward to making use of it (especially considering how closely it'll pass by where I live). If it help Youghal in any way, then yay to that.

    You could also add: Decent beachside swimming pool, Claycastle pitch & putt, Greyhound track, Perks (Ok its a bit tired now but still very popular). The cinema is lovely, very nicely restored and showing some interesting films as well as the blockbusters. It needs a boost and this project will help.


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    #88
    pukeko
    Registered Users Posts: 45 ✭pukeko


    Glenbower woods and The Old Thatch pub in Killeagh are also along the route and both worth a visit.


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    #89
    Bacchus
    Registered Users Posts: 4,701 ✭✭✭Bacchus


    pukeko wrote: »
    Glenbower woods and The Old Thatch pub in Killeagh are also along the route and both worth a visit.

    Looking at the route, Killeagh stand to benefit a lot (possibly the most) from this. The route cut right through the village. Good time to consider opening up a new cafe :)


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    #90
    Cork Trucker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,553 ✭✭✭Cork Trucker


    A fcuking joke :mad::mad::mad:

    https://twitter.com/echolivecork/status/1176457471399010304


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    #91
    Hibernicis
    Registered Users Posts: 1,547 ✭✭✭Hibernicis


    Cork Trucker wrote: »
    A fcuking joke :mad::mad::mad:

    https://twitter.com/echolivecork/status/1176457471399010304

    Whats wrong with this ?


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