Planning permission up for greenway from Youghal to Midleton

Cork Trucker

Markcheese wrote: »

Never say never , but it's been already been unused for decades ,so this a good start ...
( Scheduled passenger services finished in 1963 !!)
And the last beet trains were in the early 80s )

East Cork is very very different since the last special was out on in 1988. And an even more different world over the last 57 years. Apparently it is being prepared for a rapid conversion to a railway again if ever needed. Imagine the uproar if it’s tried

Markcheese

Cork Trucker wrote: »

East Cork is very very different since the last special was out on in 1988. And an even more different world over the last 57 years. Apparently it is being prepared for a rapid conversion to a railway again if ever needed. Imagine the uproar if it’s tried

Well if it needed for transport then ,put rails back , but for the foreseeable future if they've a few spare Bob for public transport in cork ,I can think of stacks of other projects that could do with the money ...

c montgomery

Cork Trucker wrote: »

Christ it makes me sick looking at this knowing the railway line isn't going to reopen

The railway might not reopen but this will bring alot of people to both Youghal and midleton and is fantastic for both towns.

deRanged

I'm very pro greenway, but at the same time since I posted the original image of the planning permission, the numbers on the train have increased massively. I've changed to an earlier train and that's very busy leaving Midleton. The trains home in the evening are rammed. There's definitely something to be said for increasing the capacity of the line, and perhaps for increasing the line itself.

There won't be any money for any improvements outside the Dublin commuter area for a very long time, so I still think the greenway is a good use of the line in the meantime.

Cork Trucker

deRanged wrote: »

There won't be any money for any improvements outside the Dublin commuter area for a very long time, so I still think the greenway is a good use of the line in the meantime.

I accept your point, however this is Ireland, no railway in the entire 26 counties has closed, been turned into a greenway and reopened as a railway line in later years, the same will happen here.

hans aus dtschl

Cork Trucker wrote: »

I accept your point, however this is Ireland, no railway in the entire 26 counties has closed, been turned into a greenway and reopened as a railway line in later years, the same will happen here.

As I've said before this is not a solid argument because very few railways in the 26 counties have been turned into greenway full stop. Most are recent. Looking for railways that became greenways that were proposed to become railways again gives you a handful of results, such as the Cork-Passage route. Which, contrary to your post is planned to become light rail once again.

Why a similar level of "it's being prevented from becoming a railway again" ire isn't aimed at the roads that prevent the return of rail is a mystery to me. Cork Low Road recent redevelopment for instance? Kenmare to Kilgarvan recent redevelopment? God knows how many others. Seems one-eyed to me.

Anyway above all else, Youghal is not getting a railway any time soon. Regardless of anything else that happens on the alignment.

deRanged

passenger numbers up almost 10% on the Midleton line. Still only about half the Cobh numbers, but Cobh has had the train for a lot longer and hasn't the same bus service. Irish-Rail-reveals-passenger-numbers-for-Cork-services-Highest-figures-ever-recorded

Cork Trucker

deRanged wrote: »

passenger numbers up almost 10% on the Midleton line. Still only about half the Cobh numbers, but Cobh has had the train for a lot longer and hasn't the same bus service. Irish-Rail-reveals-passenger-numbers-for-Cork-services-Highest-figures-ever-recorded

Until about 2 years ago all Cobh had was the train, yes the bus service went is a godsend to them but many are staying loyal to the only public transport they ever knew. If the railway in Youghal reopened you’d probably replicate that success, yes the number 40 bus and especially the 261 are always busy, but they sieve their time in traffic, you don’t get that on railway tracks unless it’s an unforeseen event.

questionmark?

deRanged wrote: »

passenger numbers up almost 10% on the Midleton line. Still only about half the Cobh numbers, but Cobh has had the train for a lot longer and hasn't the same bus service. Irish-Rail-reveals-passenger-numbers-for-Cork-services-Highest-figures-ever-recorded

The Cobh line has a lot more stations to be counted, Cobh, Rushbrooke, Fota, Glounthaune and Little island. Where as the Midleton line only counts Carrigtowhill and Midleton(AFAIK) Encouraging that Midleton line has seen growth every year since it was opened. Even still it's a hard business case to open up to Youghal when Midleton West, Carrigtowhill IDA, Tivoli and Blackpool are ahead in the Q of importance for Station reopening on the Cork commuter service.
Btw Cobh has had a pretty good bus service for the last year or so with Cobh Connect.

hans aus dtschl

questionmark? wrote: »

The Cobh line has a lot more stations to be counted, Cobh, Rushbrooke, Fota, Glounthaune and Little island. Where as the Midleton line only counts Carrigtowhill and Midleton(AFAIK) Encouraging that Midleton line has seen growth every year since it was opened. Even still it's a hard business case to open up to Youghal when Midleton West, Carrigtowhill IDA, Tivoli and Blackpool are ahead in the Q of importance for Station reopening on the Cork commuter service.
Btw Cobh has had a pretty good bus service for the last year or so with Cobh Connect.

Monard, Kilbarry and Kent passing loop are also ahead of Youghal.
The money's not there for any of those five or six "safe bet" projects, so it's definitely not there for Youghal which has a longer and less certain ROI, it's that simple. And if it does become available, there would need to be serious questions about Mogeely and Killeagh development plans. Providing a greenway parallel to the alignment will be a very small issue by comparison.

We keep giving the same explanation over and over. It feels like the M20 discussion. The numbers don't add up.

nokiatom

How much will it cost the Cork County Counsel to lease the line from Irish Rail?

Cork Trucker

Is it true that part of the land on which a house encroaches the line at a crossing in Killeagh is part of the reason why the line never reopened?

mordeith

Cork Trucker wrote: »

Is it true that part of the land on which a house encroaches the line at a crossing in Killeagh is part of the reason why the line never reopened?

I think its outbuildings and not a house but I could be wrong. Either way I believe the greenway had to divert around it.

Cork Trucker

mordeith wrote: »

I think its outbuildings and not a house but I could be wrong. Either way I believe the greenway had to divert around it.

These outbuildings were built after the last train in 1988? If a greenway has to be diverted that says a lot.

nokiatom

Cork Trucker wrote: »

These outbuildings were built after the last train in 1988? If a greenway has to be diverted that says a lot.

well the land is belong to Irish Rail...can you build on someone elses land without permission?

Cork Trucker

nokiatom wrote: »

well the land is belong to Irish Rail...can you build on someone elses land without permission?

Squatters rights, abandonment etc? Must be a reason they aren’t challenging it

nokiatom

Cork Trucker wrote: »

Squatters rights, abandonment etc? Must be a reason they aren’t challenging it

would a part of a building encroaching the line stop an €80 - €100 million project? There was never a chance of the railway coming back...Irish Rail wanted it off their hands and the government had no interest in it either. There was studies done as far back as 20 years ago and resulted that it was not viable to reopen the line

Cork Trucker

nokiatom wrote: »

would a part of a building encroaching the line stop an €80 - €100 million project? There was never a chance of the railway coming back...Irish Rail wanted it off their hands and the government had no interest in it either. There was studies done as far back as 20 years ago and resulted that it was not viable to reopen the line

It wasn’t much out of the way so why would they argue it when they want rid of it? It’s a very different World today than in 2000

Markcheese

Cork Trucker wrote: »

It wasn’t much out of the way so why would they argue it when they want rid of it? It’s a very different World today than in 2000

It is a very different world , but the population along the line isn't that different at ,neither is the projected population ... ,

Bacchus

Markcheese wrote: »

It is a very different world , but the population along the line isn't that different at ,neither is the projected population ... ,

Which to me feels shortsighted... resulting in a chicken and the egg paradox. How will the regions in east Cork grow if the infrastructure isn't there to support or encourage that growth. It will be interesting if the tables turn as a result of COVID-19, where more people working from home sparks growth outside the city center, potentially fewer cars (2 car homes become 1 car homes) and there comes a need to encourage people IN to the city to work or spend money... something a decent train line would provide.

nokiatom

Bacchus wrote: »

Which to me feels shortsighted... resulting in a chicken and the egg paradox. How will the regions in east Cork grow if the infrastructure isn't there to support or encourage that growth. It will be interesting if the tables turn as a result of COVID-19, where more people working from home sparks growth outside the city center, potentially fewer cars (2 car homes become 1 car homes) and there comes a need to encourage people IN to the city to work or spend money... something a decent train line would provide.

They are concentrating on tourism in Youghal rather than industry

nokiatom

Bacchus wrote: »

Which to me feels shortsighted... resulting in a chicken and the egg paradox. How will the regions in east Cork grow if the infrastructure isn't there to support or encourage that growth. It will be interesting if the tables turn as a result of COVID-19, where more people working from home sparks growth outside the city center, potentially fewer cars (2 car homes become 1 car homes) and there comes a need to encourage people IN to the city to work or spend money... something a decent train line would provide.

They are concentrating on tourism in Youghal rather than industry

Bacchus

nokiatom wrote: »

They are concentrating on tourism in Youghal rather than industry

I know the greenway will act as an attraction to the region but a train connecting to the second largest city in Ireland (with an airport too) would be useful on that front too.

I'm not against the greenway btw. I would have preferred a train route but accept that on balance there's a lot of positives for greenway. I'm just interested in the knock on effects of COVID-19 on how populations will start to creep further away from city hubs in search of more affordable accommodation in nice parts of the countryside.

nokiatom

people still like to travel in their own cars and people complain about the amount of traffic going into Cork and leaving Cork but yet very few get out of their car and park it in Midleton and take the train to Cork

Cork Trucker

Well...... now that ‘mad’ Eamon Ryan is in charge (Of transport) expect to see some changes to reverse that trend.

nokiatom

next train...15 years to 20 years in the future

namloc1980

Most people who commute to the city living in Midleton and Carrigtwohill use their cars, and they have a train service on their doorstep. I live in Carrigtwohill and before Covid anyway I used the train daily. At rush hour it was the same 15 or so people using it and the main users tend to be students. A train to Youghal sounds great but it's not viable. The Greenway should be a big boost to tourism - like the Dungarvan one.

nokiatom

namloc1980 wrote: »

Most people who commute to the city living in Midleton and Carrigtwohill use their cars, and they have a train service on their doorstep. I live in Carrigtwohill and before Covid anyway I used the train daily. At rush hour it was the same 15 or so people using it and the main users tend to be students. A train to Youghal sounds great but it's not viable. The Greenway should be a big boost to tourism - like the Dungarvan one.

Thanks for that factual comment.....and thats why the track is becoming a Greenway

deRanged

I'd disagree with that. I also used the train daily, from Midleton and it was always busy. The train ex Cork in the evening is rammed. I do get the earlier ones though, maybe later in rush hour is quieter.

namloc1980

deRanged wrote: »

I'd disagree with that. I also used the train daily, from Midleton and it was always busy. The train ex Cork in the evening is rammed. I do get the earlier ones though, maybe later in rush hour is quieter.

One maybe two trains in the evening and in the morning you could possibly describe as busy but rammed is a bit of stretch in fairness. Most of the trains are just 2 cars which tells it's own story about how busy the line is. When they run the odd 4 car train you'd never fail to get a seat regardless of the time of day. We're not talking London Underground here which I would describe as rammed.

In any case the facts are that the Census from 2016 shows that only a small fraction of the population who commute to work from Carrigtwohill and Midleton use the train. The overwhelming majority travel by car with quite a few who walk to work locally:

- Of the 3,002 people in employment residing in the Electoral District, Carrigtohill of Cork County, 75.55% or 2,268 commute to work by car.
- Of the 4,825 people in employment residing in the Electoral District, Midleton of Cork County, 69.95% or 3,375 commute to work by car.

According to the census 1,500 people who live in Carrgtwohill and surrounds work in Cork city but only c.100 people use the station there daily according to the NTA census which is just 6% of commuters. Many of those 100 are students and are not captured in the number classified as "working" in the city so the percentage is even lower. Midleton is a bit better but overall very low numbers using the train relatively speaking. Things have probably got busier since 2016 but not dramatically so i.e. the trains still run an hourly timetable except in the morning and evening for a short while and most trains are run as 2 car trains.

There's a very small number of people living in Youghal and surrounds who actually work in the city. Certainly not enough to justify a commuter train line.