No wonder millennials can't afford a mortgage

divillybit

troyzer wrote: »

If you're 33 and own a house with no debt you either inherited it, are a drug dealer or have a particularly well paying job. Which is probably really rare and thus pointless to use as an example for the rest of us.

Im 33 and bought my own house by myself for 190k.. no inheritance, no bank of mum and dad... just hard work and discipline and from that I got a lucky break or two..but I remember buying a book in 2008 when I was 23, called Ireland's House party by Derek Brawn.. it was the time that the economy was slowing down big time. I've read that book several times over since I bought it.. it focused my mind on buying a house from a young age but also about negative equity and leveraging... Buying a house is likely the biggest purchase you'll ever make and its good to get thinking about this in your 20's when you start working as its the time when you have the most disposable income and can start saving. So I do really sympathise with people trying to save up while paying big rents..

ligerdub

tabby aspreme wrote:

In 1989 a single person would have had great difficulty paying a 60k mortgage with the interest rate level and the paye rate, back then I could gross 400 on a good week, but would take home 200.

And then what happened?

Interest rates trended lower for years and years, wages went up massively and taxes came down. Even adjusting for the net pay it's still a lower cost than the equivalent today.

A single person could still get a reasonably nice place, and there was quite a lot fewer single people back then. Nowadays there are more single people and it's harder for them to get going.

Going back to the 80s/90s example, those people ended up with big assets, and major tailwinds in affordability. People now are faced with mostly buying older in their lives, meaning having less flexibility of term, starting at a low interest rate, meaning it's only going to be more expensive to repay (as they will rise at some point), and buying at an extremely high price.

The whole thing is a total ****show now.

The idea of buying a house in Ireland sounds absolutely awful due to everything listed in this thread.

It's no often I feel sorry for people who can't afford something like a house, but some of the details on here have been a bit of an eye-opener.


I've no interest in getting one in Ireland but might look at getting one where I am in the next five years or so.

Subcomandante Marcos

fergus1001 wrote: »

going to throw the cat amongst the pigeons here

anyone in Dublin on the housing list and who does not have a job in Dublin should be relocated to the Midlands or west were rent is cheaper, It is unacceptable that my tax euros goes to house people in Dublin who are not contributing while I cannot afford a house in kildare while I am working and paying tax

Literally one of the most economically idiotic suggestions imaginable.

mvl

Deleted User wrote: »

The idea of buying a house in Ireland sounds absolutely awful due to everything listed in this thread.

It's no often I feel sorry for people who can't afford something like a house, but some of the details on here have been a bit of an eye-opener.


I've no interest in getting one in Ireland but might look at getting one where I am in the next five years or so.

... for a while I was debt free. owning a backup place (flat) on the continental europe, while paying rent in here gave me a sense of security in a way, until a personal event got me to want to cut ties with that country, and setup our home here; so I got my irish mortgage only after I paid 100k in rent while working here.
retrospectively, I should have done this years ago. so next time I will move country, I would consider moving my home sooner.

Unlike Switzerland's home ownership challenges (there is always worse than Ireland), based on my experience, I think mortgages in Ireland are affordable for professional individuals (single income or not).
but each with their own priorities.

fergus1001

Subcomandante Marcos wrote:

Literally one of the most economically idiotic suggestions imaginable.

seriously how ?

TCM

SilverPenney wrote:

Am millennial, me and my partner only shop at Aldi and Lidl, bring packed lunches to work/university, comes to about 50 a week overall for food for the both of us. If houses were as affordable they were in my parents time (a 3 bed semi for 21 grand in 1990 and a two bed cottage for 14 grand in 1995, all within 30 minutes of a city), then I'm sure we'd be happily paying a mortgage off.

Those are fairy figures.

andekwarhola

fergus1001 wrote: »

seriously how ?

A lot of social housing tenants pay rent, for example. A far better scenario for all involved than ponying taxpayers money into the private rental and hotel sectors.

I'd rather housing policy was dictated by common sense than spite about the unemployed, but that's just me.

troyzer

andekwarhola wrote: »

180 about 6 years ago. Just hold on a few years

It was €180k for a reason, nobody could get a mortgage.

andekwarhola

troyzer wrote: »

It was €180k for a reason, nobody could get a mortgage.

I know quite a few that did. Fair play to them. They sat tight and it paid off.

troyzer

divillybit wrote: »

Im 33 and bought my own house by myself for 190k.. no inheritance, no bank of mum and dad... just hard work and discipline and from that I got a lucky break or two..but I remember buying a book in 2008 when I was 23, called Ireland's House party by Derek Brawn.. it was the time that the economy was slowing down big time. I've read that book several times over since I bought it.. it focused my mind on buying a house from a young age but also about negative equity and leveraging... Buying a house is likely the biggest purchase you'll ever make and its good to get thinking about this in your 20's when you start working as its the time when you have the most disposable income and can start saving. So I do really sympathise with people trying to save up while paying big rents..

How did you do it in practical terms? Where is the house? €190k for Dublin is probably near the bottom of the cycle, 2012.

If you're 33 now, you were 28 then. I finished my education when I was 23.

So how did you do it? Because there's absolutely no way I could do it. Doesn't matter how hard I worked. I've already said elsewhere that I save around 30-40% of my salary and that's with me living at home, no rent.

I'm doing everything right. I got a really good education, good grades, worked hard when I graduated, I was flexible and moved to Australia for a while for the $$$.

Explain to me what I've done wrong and what you did right.

P_1

Subcomandante Marcos wrote: »

Literally one of the most economically idiotic suggestions imaginable.

Not a great idea but you can see where the frustration comes from.

Should thought be given to relocating those who refuse to engage out west though? And by dint engage I mean people not looking for work or not on courses etc

facehugger99

troyzer wrote: »

It was €180k for a reason, nobody could get a mortgage.

Plenty of mortgages available for those who wanted them - nobody wanting to buy in a falling market was a huge issue.

troyzer

facehugger99 wrote: »

Plenty of mortgages available for those who wanted them - nobody wanting to buy in a falling market was a huge issue.

It's not about people wanting them. Banks in general were more cautious and very few people were untouched by the 15% unemployment rate, tax hikes and wage cuts.

Well done to the very, very lucky few who were in a great position to buy in such a favourable market but there is a reason it was so favourable: not many people were able to buy.

None of this applies to me because I turned 18 in 2010 and was in full time education until 2016. So dismissing the angst of people my age by saying a few older people managed to get a house a few years is a bit useless.

andekwarhola

troyzer wrote: »

It's not about people wanting them. Banks in general were more cautious and very few people were untouched by the 15% unemployment rate, tax hikes and wage cuts.

Well done to the very, very lucky few who were in a great position to buy in such a favourable market but there is a reason it was so favourable: not many people were able to buy.

None of this applies to me because I turned 18 in 2010 and was in full time education until 2016. So dismissing the angst of people my age by saying a few older people managed to get a house a few years is a bit useless.

They were giving out mortgages, just not to the extent of the boom years. Nobody I know that had a deposit and enough combined income were turned down. And none of them are well off either.

Like you say, it's just a matter of timing and luck really. Rents were lower so easier to save. One friend of mine, for example, moved home for 3 plus years and put away the deposit handy enough and bought in 2012 for about half of what he'd pay now.

I don't begrudge him. Things just worked out very handy for him and I'm happy for him.

Poor_old_gill

There's prob no set of advice that you can give to people that will be a catch-all as circumstances differ across the board.

I have been lucky enough that a few things have fell into place for me and I was able to afford a place a couple of years back-my folks arent wealthy but my older brother did well for himself abroad and gave me a hand - i'm not being smug and know how lucky I am to have had this option.

However people keep talking about incomes being too low to afford places- I still see it as a supply issue and the need to build up is an imperative. Prices are dictated by location and relative location (as thats what drives demand) and when ever we add to the housing stock we just build out rather than up.

The majority of working people in the country can afford a house- it's just that location is too far from where they want to work as all the good, single build locations are bought/retained by those with wealth.

The issue of housing will never be resolved until this issue is- it should be one of the biggest items on the next electoral ballot.

troyzer

Poor_old_gill wrote: »

There's prob no set of advice that you can give to people that will be a catch-all as circumstances differ across the board.

I have been lucky enough that a few things have fell into place for me and I was able to afford a place a couple of years back-my folks arent wealthy but my older brother did well for himself abroad and gave me a hand - i'm not being smug and know how lucky I am to have had this option.

However people keep talking about incomes being too low to afford places- I still see it as a supply issue and the need to build up is an imperative. Prices are dictated by location and relative location (as thats what drives demand) and when ever we add to the housing stock we just build out rather than up.

The majority of working people in the country can afford a house- it's just that location is too far from where they want need to work as all the good, single build locations are bought/retained by those with wealth.

The issue of housing will never be resolved until this issue is- it should be one of the biggest items on the next electoral ballot.

Fixed it for you. I'd happily do my job on the side of a hill in Leitrim if I could. I can't.

Increasing housing supply will lead to a drop in house prices, yes. And then you'll have an angry mob of people complaining about negative equity.

Your fortune is someone else's misfortune. For you to get a house cheap, somebody else probably lost their arse on it. For your house to be valuable means nobody else can get a house in that area. You can't solve the housing crisis without huge political will to shaft current homeowners.

It'll never happen.

Planning my Canadian permanent residency as we speak......

andekwarhola

andekwarhola wrote: »

A lot of social housing tenants pay rent,............

They pay tiny rent.

Poor_old_gill

troyzer wrote: »

Fixed it for you. I'd happily do my job on the side of a hill in Leitrim if I could. I can't.

Increasing housing supply will lead to a drop in house prices, yes. And then you'll have an angry mob of people complaining about negative equity.

Your fortune is someone else's misfortune. For you to get a house cheap, somebody else probably lost their arse on it. For your house to be valuable means nobody else can get a house in that area. You can't solve the housing crisis without huge political will to shaft current homeowners.

It'll never happen.

Planning my Canadian permanent residency as we speak......

So your suggestion of a solution is?

mariaalice

troyzer wrote: »

Fixed it for you. I'd happily do my job on the side of a hill in Leitrim if I could. I can't.

Increasing housing supply will lead to a drop in house prices, yes. And then you'll have an angry mob of people complaining about negative equity.

Your fortune is someone else's misfortune. For you to get a house cheap, somebody else probably lost their arse on it. For your house to be valuable means nobody else can get a house in that area. You can't solve the housing crisis without huge political will to shaft current homeowners.

It'll never happen.

Planning my Canadian permanent residency as we speak......

A genuine question is a property cheaper in the choices bit of Canada i.e cool and interesting bits of Vancouver Island where a lot a people what to live because you have to compare like with like.

troyzer

Poor_old_gill wrote: »

So your suggestion of a solution is?

The solution is to start thinking radically about step down homes for elderly couples whose kids have moved on, decent public transport to make the commute from Mullingar to the city centre the same time as Lucan to the city centre was for my parents.

Nobody cares if they're further away as long as the time taken is the same. Commuting for really long time periods is really unhealthy.

And of course, I fully advocate shafting current homeowners with high rise apartment blocks.

mariaalice wrote: »

A genuine question is a property cheaper in the choices bit of Canada i.e cool and interesting bits of Vancouver Island where a lot a people what to live because you have to compare like with like.

Canada does public transport much better than us. Plus salaries are much higher. It's more money chasing less housing, yes. But the BC government are willing to pull out the stops, something out government isn't. For example, they've recently introduced a large tax on non-residents who buy homes. It's had a noticable effect.

LirW

troyzer wrote: »

The solution is to start thinking radically about step down homes for elderly couples whose kids have moved on, decent public transport to make the commute from Mullingar to the city centre the same time as Lucan to the city centre was for my parents.




.

There are plenty of elderly that want to size down, the problem is that there's little out there that's suitable to size down to. Often elderly people have some sort of support network in place when things aren't easy going anymore, they need access to a doctor and hospitals. Yet many are still independent enough that they don't wanna live in care homes.
There's a big lack of options for them when they want to eventually move on.

My in-laws live in a big house that they don't really use but no way they'd ever move because they love where they live. She'd be open to a move down to Wicklow, he doesn't want to though. At the end of the day it's their house, they paid for it so they can do whatever they want with it.

troyzer

LirW wrote: »

There are plenty of elderly that want to size down, the problem is that there's little out there that's suitable to size down to. Often elderly people have some sort of support network in place when things aren't easy going anymore, they need access to a doctor and hospitals. Yet many are still independent enough that they don't wanna live in care homes.
There's a big lack of options for them when they want to eventually move on.

My in-laws live in a big house that they don't really use but no way they'd ever move because they love where they live. She'd be open to a move down to Wicklow, he doesn't want to though. At the end of the day it's their house, they paid for it so they can do whatever they want with it.

I agree, it's not entirely or even mostly their fault. Which is why I said we need practical step down houses for elderly people. My grand parents live in a five bed semi D just inside the M50, you could fit 10-15 students in there easily. But they want to stay relatively local because of their friends and hobbies and there's nowhere to go for them so they stay put.

Poor_old_gill

troyzer wrote: »

The solution is to start thinking radically about step down homes for elderly couples whose kids have moved on, decent public transport to make the commute from Mullingar to the city centre the same time as Lucan to the city centre was for my parents.

Nobody cares if they're further away as long as the time taken is the same. Commuting for really long time periods is really unhealthy.

And of course, I fully advocate shafting current homeowners with high rise apartment blocks.



Canada does public transport much better than us. Plus salaries are much higher. It's more money chasing less housing, yes. But the BC government are willing to pull out the stops, something out government isn't. For example, they've recently introduced a large tax on non-residents who buy homes. It's had a noticable effect.

The public transport network isnt there though and we dont have the money to invest in it.

The only solutions that I can see- are build up in Dublin and/or provide incentives to companies to set up in Mullingar/Athlone/Galway/Limerick/Tralee/Ennis.

One solution that keeps on being floated is moving the port of Dublin up the coast and converting the land into apartments-seems like a no-brainer to me but am open to someone with better knowledge refuting this.

Also as Vancouver was mentioned-the place has a massive homeless & drug taking epidemic- Irish people seem to think it's the land of milk & honey because they all move to places like Whistler or Vancouver Island and live there for 2 years or so- but none can afford to buy so the comparison isnt exactly on point.

It's like renting in Ranelagh and presuming that all of Dublin is just like it

amcalester

Poor_old_gill wrote: »

One solution that keeps on being floated is moving the port of Dublin up the coast and converting the land into apartments-seems like a no-brainer to me but am open to someone with better knowledge refuting this

Think of all the 3 bed semi-d's that could built, it'd be amazing.

troyzer

Poor_old_gill wrote: »

The public transport network isnt there though and we dont have the money to invest in it.

The only solutions that I can see- are build up in Dublin and/or provide incentives to companies to set up in Mullingar/Athlone/Galway/Limerick/Tralee/Ennis.

One solution that keeps on being floated is moving the port of Dublin up the coast and converting the land into apartments-seems like a no-brainer to me but am open to someone with better knowledge refuting this

We're one of the wealthiest countries in the world. Of course we can do it if we prioritise it.

Moving the economy to the regions and smaller cities has been tried for years and just hasn't worked to the extent needed.

I often thought that about the port, seems mad where it is.

amcalester wrote: »

Think of all the 3 bed semi-d's that could built, it'd be amazing.

That's depressing but probably what would happen.

jam_mac_jam

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

Yeah that's what they have every morning for breakfast and nobody born before 1985 ever wastes money on food. There is no transfer of wealth that has happened over the past 30 years in favour of those who own property, its all about toast. Well done.

Self entitled millennials tend to get quite hung up about about 'transfer of wealth'. Its quite a hallmark.
Earning it themselves seems to be a difficult concept for them.

Really? I know plenty of millennials  who work very hard earning money. So not many I know have a problem earning.
There was a huge transfer of wealth to the baby boomers in terms of property wealth. That's a fact not an opinion.  You should look it up and get the chip off your shoulder.

Poor_old_gill

troyzer wrote: »

We're one of the wealthiest countries in the world. Of course we can do it if we prioritise it.

Moving the economy to the regions and smaller cities has been tried for years and just hasn't worked to the extent needed.

I often thought that about the port, seems mad where it is.



That's depressing but probably what would happen.

We're the most in-debt per capita country in the EU so I dont think its accurate to take about us being very wealthy.

We have a good cash flow at the moment if you want to look at it in a business context but we borrowed up to eyeballs.

The port thing does seem like a no brainer and considering that a lot of employment would also be in that area- it might have the potential to take a lot of people off already over crowded public transport

BBFAN

fergus1001 wrote: »

going to throw the cat amongst the pigeons here

anyone in Dublin on the housing list and who does not have a job in Dublin should be relocated to the Midlands or west were rent is cheaper, It is unacceptable that my tax euros goes to house people in Dublin who are not contributing while I cannot afford a house in kildare while I am working and paying tax

You're not throwing the cat amongst the pigeons at all, just trotting out a line that's been trotted out by bitter people since the recession hit.

"get all the unemployed out of Dublin so I can live there".

Can you see how idiotic that sounds? Moving unemployed people to a place where there are no jobs? That's going to end well.

Also, what happens when you're unemployed, ill or simply old? Do we move you out of Dublin because there's no need for you to live there then?

Some people have such a small self-centred view of the world it scares me.

amcalester

BBFAN wrote: »

You're not throwing the cat amongst the pigeons at all, just trotting out a line that's been trotted out by bitter people since the recession hit.

"get all the unemployed out of Dublin so I can live there".

Can you see how idiotic that sounds? Moving unemployed people to a place where there are no jobs? That's going to end well.

Also, what happens when you're unemployed, ill or simply old? Do we move you out of Dublin because there's no need for you to live there then?

Some people have such a small self-centred view of the world it scares me.

He's referring to the never-employed, not the unemployed.

All the never-employed are unemployed, but not all unemployed are never-employed.

BBFAN

amcalester wrote: »

He's referring to the never-employed, not the unemployed.

All the never-employed are unemployed, but not all unemployed are never-employed.

Great that you can read another posters mind. You should sell that skill. :rolleyes:

mikemac2

In 1981 the founder of Ballygowan water named Geoff Read went onto the late late show and became a national laughing stock

Irish people buy water? This wet country? The man was a joke, now if he still owns it he’s a multi millionaire

Ah OP you scoff at millennials wasting money but your parents said the same about you. Somewhere in Ancient Rome the same got said too

Your post is very preachy

amcalester

BBFAN wrote: »

Great that you can read another posters mind. You should sell that skill. :rolleyes:

Well quite usefully he put his thoughts into words, makes it easier.

andekwarhola

Augeo wrote: »

They pay tiny rent.

As a means-tested percentage of their income. Hence social housing.

It would be a social disaster to move low income people to parts of Ireland where there are little jobs or facilities just to assuage the bitterness of people that can't hack a commute to work.

DEFTLEFTHAND

mikemac2 wrote: »

In 1981 he founder of Ballygowan water named Geoff Read went onto the late late show and became a national laughing stock

Irish people buy water? This wet country? The man was a joke, now if he still owns it he’s a multi millionaire

Ah OP you scoff at millennials wasting money but your parents said the same about you. Somewhere in Ancient Rome the same got said too

Your post is very preachy

It did seem like a ridiculous concept at the time though.

You would have been seen as sort of mug or touched in the head for buying something readily available for free.

You could only admire somebody like Read. He could sell sand to the Arabs

amcalester

andekwarhola wrote: »

As a means-tested percentage of their income. Hence social housing.

It would be a social disaster to move low income people to parts of Ireland where there are little jobs or facilities just to assuage the bitterness of people that can't hack a commute to work.

People with jobs should live where there are no jobs and commute so that the people with no jobs can live where the jobs are so that they don't have to commute to their non-existent job.

Gotcha!

draiochtanois

This post has been deleted.

DEFTLEFTHAND

draiochtanois wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Well it is of course but man it sells like crazy.

I find it fascinating and I've huge admiration for all the entrepreneurs who made their fortunes in bottled water.

The power of marketing is truly incredible.

jmayo

steo_magra wrote: »

1988 - average wage 25,000 pound
Average 3 bed house price 27,500 pound

2018 - average wage 45,000 euro
Average 3 bed house - 340,000 euro

This in Dublin of course. An economist on the radio the other day.

So yeah they had it easier back in the day by an absolute mile.

andekwarhola wrote: »

Was that average wage really 25k punt in 1988. Not disputing, just surprised. And what was the median I wonder.

I don't know where they got the figure from, but I think £25k in 1988 as average wage is way way too much.

The average industrial wage per week was €264.53 which works out at £208 or £10.8 per annum.

I know leaving college in 1992 with a degree in engineering one could get funded by I think it was Eolas at the time on a 1 year work scheme with a small company on salary of £10k.
The state entity provided 5k and the company provided 5k.

Engineer starting salaries from memory were from around 12k to 16k.

Bigmac1euro

jmayo wrote: »

I don't know where they got the figure from, but I think £25k in 1988 as average wage is way way too much.

The average industrial wage per week was €264.53 which works out at £208 or £10.8 per annum.

I know leaving college in 1992 with a degree in engineering one could get funded by I think it was Eolas at the time on a 1 year work scheme with a small company on salary of £10k.
The state entity provided 5k and the company provided 5k.

Engineer starting salaries from memory were from around 12k to 16k.

To be honest I thought it sounded quite high as well and I was fairly shocked at this. Perhaps the economist or whatever he was was using real earnings as opposed to the nominal earnings you posted.

Nominal earnings for 1988 - €264 = €13,728
Real earnings for 1988 - €487= €25,324 per year

Again these all figures but the truth is people were buying 3 bed houses for between 25k to 35k

And the salary was a 1/3 of that

now my COMBINED salary with my partner would 1/5th of house prices or a 1/6th in some cases

Terenure like stated above is a terrible example for house prices in dublin in late 80's early 90's

And the people quoting the likes of Meath etc showing a bungalow for 50k i reckon you should stay away from trying to purchase a house because you'll end up with a 1 bed in ballymun for 600k

Feisar

Someone mentioned it earlier and I think it's worth a thread on it's own.

What happens to the current crop that cannot afford a house? My neighbor who was renting for 13 years had to move from what was her home as the owner was selling. She found somewhere else however at 55 years old approx, she has ten years left able to rent. This is very approximate, I don't know the ins and outs of her exact circumstance. What's she going to do when she can no longer work to pay her rent?

There's a generation there now that unfortunately home ownership is out of the question, yet the Irish system isn't set up for rental. For example a Swedish ex's parents rent, are retired and have no issue.

So, as someone else said bit of a ticking time bomb.

troyzer

draiochtanois wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

It's still a ridiculous idea- ****ing notions

it's another thing millennials waste their money on ...[/quote]

Beating up on Millenials again. I've had the same Nalgene bottle for eight years and never buy bottled water unless I'm really stuck.

My Mam buys a slab of 24, 500ml every two or three days.

It drives me mad. I think you'll find millenials are more environmentally conscious and less likely to waste plastic with bottled water.

Grayson

amcalester wrote: »

4 bed bungalow in Louth c. £60K in 91/92.

How much land with it and how big was the house? A Bungalow is a very broad description. I remember in college in maynooth in 95 our landlord kicked us out. He'd bought the 4 bed house in an estate for something like 30k and was selling it a few years later for 38k. I remember him saying "lads, this type of increase can't keep happening. I'm going to sell up and make a profit while I can"

BTW, the average house prices are here.
https://www.cso.ie/px/pxeirestat/Statire/SelectVarVal/Define.asp?maintable=HSQ06&PLanguage=0

Grayson

troyzer wrote: »

Beating up on Millenials again. I've had the same Nalgene bottle for eight years and never buy bottled water unless I'm really stuck.

My Mam buys a slab of 24, 500ml every two or three days.

It drives me mad. I think you'll find millenials are more environmentally conscious and less likely to waste plastic with bottled water.

I have no idea why people buy bottled water for home. It seems like such a waste. I always see people in the supermarket with those multipacks of water in the trolly. Fair enough if you're out and about, but for home it seems a bit mad.

btw, nalgene are fecking amazing. Although I'd love one of those shiny sigg bottles.

Grayditch

"Deconstructed Avocado Toast" makes no sense. It was never constructed to be deconstructed. It's just unconstructed at best.

BBFAN

Grayson wrote: »

I have no idea why people buy bottled water for home. It seems like such a waste. I always see people in the supermarket with those multipacks of water in the trolly. Fair enough if you're out and about, but for home it seems a bit mad.

btw, nalgene are fecking amazing. Although I'd love one of those shiny sigg bottles.

I have friends from Poland who will not drink from the tap, maybe it's because their drinking water wasn't safe, don't know. I fill a water bottle from the tap and stick it the fridge before they come over.

Gwynplaine

Grayditch wrote: »

"Deconstructed Avocado Toast" makes no sense. It was never constructed to be deconstructed. It's just unconstructed at best.

Yeah but it was made for some fairy in brown shoes and no socks.

Grayson

Grayson wrote: »

I have no idea why people buy bottled water for home. It seems like such a waste. I always see people in the supermarket with those multipacks of water in the trolly. Fair enough if you're out and about, but for home it seems a bit mad.

btw, nalgene are fecking amazing. Although I'd love one of those shiny sigg bottles.

Because tap water while perfectly safe tastes bad in most places and its not sparkling and I drink mostly sparking water so I buy a 6 pack of 1.5L or 2L bottles of water every week.

mariaalice

Would there be any connection between the housing issues and cultural changes in society? when we had the great confinement when by the 1950s 1% of the population was locked up in various institutions mostly psychiatric hospitals, then there were those living in religious community there were working men's hostels in all the cities and even large towns other people lived in digs for years etc, as all these have disappeared and rightly so in most cases.

Now everybody expects to be able to buy and live alone at least for a period of their lives and vulnerable people and those on low income have no choice except to compete with everyone else in the property market.

kunst nugget

mariaalice wrote: »

Would there be any connection between the housing issues and cultural changes in society? when we had the great confinement when by the 1950s 1% of the population was locked up in various institutions mostly psychiatric hospitals, then there were those living in religious community there were working men's hostels in all the cities and even large towns other people lived in digs for years etc, as all these have disappeared and rightly so in most cases.

Now everybody expects to be able to buy and live alone at least for a period of their lives and vulnerable people and those on low income have no choice except to compete with everyone else in the property market.

Hmm, if only mother and baby homes hadn't developed such a bad reputation over the last couple of years, we would have been able to free up some of that housing stock being used by single mothers.