No wonder millennials can't afford a mortgage

mariaalice

kunst nugget wrote: »

Hmm, if only mother and baby homes hadn't developed such a bad reputation over the last couple of years, we would have been able to free up some of that housing stock being used by single mothers.

Of course, they and other ways of locking people up were a maladaptive way that society controlled and dealt with individuals that society nor their family did not want. http://www.thejournal.ie/history-of-psychiatry-ireland-book-brendan-kelly-3177461-Jan2017/

kunst nugget

kunst nugget wrote: »

........... we would have been able to free up some of that housing stock being used by single mothers.

There's an upside alright, without doubt.

fergus1001

fergus1001 wrote:

anyone in Dublin on the housing list and who does not have a job in Dublin should be relocated to the Midlands or west were rent is cheaper, It is unacceptable that my tax euros goes to house people in Dublin who are not contributing while I cannot afford a house in kildare while I am working and paying tax

fergus1001 wrote:

going to throw the cat amongst the pigeons here

why are people saying this does not make sense, you would free up housing for the people who work in Dublin

BBFAN

fergus1001 wrote: »

why are people saying this does not make sense, you would free up housing for the people who work in Dublin

Why aren't you answering the questions I posed for you?

What are the criteria? Do we move all the retired people out of Dublin also? The disabled? The sick?

Or maybe you're just on a wind up? Must be, no-one is this idiotic or self absorbed.

James Brown

I have to say I've seen two major economic meltdowns and we're on the road to number three.
While the top tier of society get bailed out and never seem to feel the crunch, the sick and poor always get the lion's share of the blame. Not to mention any unfortunate enough to be unemployed at the time or in debt.
Lately we've seen the young and renters, (because they're the new problem with housing seemingly) added to the list of no marks responsible for all the problems....It's not credible lads.

fergus1001

BBFAN wrote:

Or maybe you're just on a wind up? Must be, no-one is this idiotic or self absorbed.

not a wind up, it's hard for people who are working and paying their way to look at people who are not being handed houses, I don't think I have ever tried to be a wind up merchant on this site

BBFAN wrote:

What are the criteria? Do we move all the retired people out of Dublin also? The disabled? The sick?

no I'm talking about those who are on the housing list who are unemployed basicly anyone who does not have a pressing need to be in Dublin I am not putting retired, disabled or the sick into that bracket because they will need access to medical services

James Brown

fergus1001 wrote: »

not a wind up, it's hard for people who are working and paying their way to look at people who are not being handed houses, I don't think I have ever tried to be a wind up merchant on this site

It's supposed to be renting state owned properties to those on lower incomes with rent based on income. Granted it doesn't always pan out like that and it's more a case of people in private rented accommodation having the tax payer subsidise rent.
Nobody has ever gotten a free house. They get charged rent. Now there's lots of arrears but that can be tackled if the will is there.
Now we've two choices, supply social housing and charge rents based on income, or pay to put the same people up in hotels after they find themselves in debt due to rents, personnel debt.

fergus1001 wrote: »

no I'm talking about those who are on the housing list who are unemployed basicly anyone who does not have a pressing need to be in Dublin I am not putting retired, disabled or the sick into that bracket because they will need access to medical services

The local and national government need root out any chancers. Being from Dublin and unemployed, sick or poor shouldn't mean you have to move to Sligo for housing aid. That plays into the awful housing policy of FG were we sell off public land to private developers.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

Amina Helpful Hairpin wrote: »

Because tap water while perfectly safe tastes bad in most places and its not sparkling and I drink mostly sparking water so I buy a 6 pack of 1.5L or 2L bottles of water every week.

I’ve rarely come across bad tasting tap water in Ireland. It one of the things I love about this country, that we can actually drink our tap water and in a hard water area, it has a great bite to it.

ceadaoin.

fergus1001 wrote: »

not a wind up, it's hard for people who are working and paying their way to look at people who are not being handed houses, I don't think I have ever tried to be a wind up merchant on this site




no I'm talking about those who are on the housing list who are unemployed basicly anyone who does not have a pressing need to be in Dublin I am not putting retired, disabled or the sick into that bracket because they will need access to medical services

work isn't the the only reason to live in a particular place. Family, friends, support networks, schools if they have kids. These are all things that exist.

Also, pretty sure no one is being handed a free house. Why don't you go on the housing list yourself if it's so easy and requires a person not to work?

fergus1001

ceadaoin. wrote:

work isn't the the only reason to live in a particular place. Family, friends, support networks, schools if they have kids. These are all things that exist.

and what about the people that had to move out to kildare,laois,Meath,Cavan,Monaghan,Wicklow while working in Dublin and also have family in Dublin?

ceadaoin. wrote:

Also, pretty sure no one is being handed a free house. Why don't you go on the housing list yourself if it's so easy and requires a person not to work?

if it's not free it's at a fraction of the cost that anyone in the workforce would have to pay a month, pretty sure someone on SW would not be able to afford €1200 plus a month

oceanman

fergus1001 wrote: »

and what about the people that had to move out to kildare,laois,Meath,Cavan,Monaghan,Wicklow while working in Dublin and also have family in Dublin?




if it's not free it's at a fraction of the cost that anyone in the workforce would have to pay a month, pretty sure someone on SW would not be able to afford €1200 plus a month

then why not try it yourself if its that good..??

ceadaoin.

fergus1001 wrote: »

and what about the people that had to move out to kildare,laois,Meath,Cavan,Monaghan,Wicklow while working in Dublin and also have family in Dublin?




if it's not free it's at a fraction of the cost that anyone in the workforce would have to pay a month, pretty sure someone on SW would not be able to afford €1200 plus a month

people choosing to move out of Dublin so they can buy a more affordable house is a bit different than the government forcibly relocating people who they (you) consider undeserving of living there. Do you not see the difference? At least those people had the option to get a mortgage and buy a nice home even if its not in their preferred location.

Why don't you give up work and go on the Dole and housing list yourself if it's so easy? No, You wouldn't choose that because you know it's a **** life for the most part.

c.p.w.g.w

ceadaoin. wrote: »

people choosing to move out of Dublin so they can buy a more affordable house is a bit different than the government forcibly relocating people who they (you) consider undeserving of living there. Do you not see the difference? At least those people had the option to get a mortgage and buy a nice home even if its not in their preferred location.

Why don't you give up work and go on the Dole and housing list yourself if it's so easy? No, You wouldn't choose that because you know it's a **** life for the most part.

People who aren't contributing to the tax take, really shouldn't be put up in some of the most expensive & highly sought after property

fergus1001

oceanman wrote:

then why not try it yourself if its that good..??

because I want to contribute to society and live not just settle for an existence

AndrewJRenko

c.p.w.g.w wrote: »

People who aren't contributing to the tax take, really shouldn't be put up in some of the most expensive & highly sought after property

Everyone contributes to the tax take. They're more to tax than income tax.


But regardless, where is this social housing in the 'most expensive and highly sought after property'? And what's the alternative - another generation of Ballymun-style ghettos?

The Rape of Lucretia

Its a delicate balance, and difficult to strike. On the one hand, its necessary to keep pressure through scarcity on those seeking social housing to make that lifestyle unattractive and discourage their propagation, and on the other, ensuring that there is housing available for those earning sufficient income to deserve their own house. Not easy for a small open economy.

The real problem though is how anyone earning at all, seem to thing that they deserve a house of serious spacage. Expectations, from the lowest 80 percentile of income level in Ireland has just gone totally out of kilter in Ireland in the last 30 years. It led to the last crash, and the same syndrome, is leading to the next one.

Ireland stopped emigrating, but hasnt got used to the consequence, that everyone cannot live in the same residential space that was possible for the previous 100 years. And that it must get used to building upwards, like the rest of the world, rather than outwards, as was possible with a stable or shrinking population that characterised the 70 years of recession that Ireland paid for leaving the UK, when people got used to living in areas and houses that really were beyond their means - only temporarily possible while in that state of recession. End of the backwardness, end of house out of line with income.

amcalester

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

I’ve rarely come across bad tasting tap water in Ireland. It one of the things I love about this country, that we can actually drink our tap water and in a hard water area, it has a great bite to it.

South County Dublin water is lovely. West Dublin less so.

Westmeath water is not drinkable. North Louth is nice.

Seems to depend very much on where you are.

LirW

Some cop on is needed alright, urban areas need to build up. It's laughable how everything is getting objected that's having more than 3 storeys.
My FIL is in some residents association that's currently trying to object a purpose built 7 storey student block next to UCD. His reason: it doesn't suit the area. He wouldn't see or hear it from his house, the site is nicely tucked away.
This thickness is holding up everything.
Give people apartments with good layout and storage and you can raise a family there without problem.

Jack Moore

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

It did seem like a ridiculous concept at the time though.

You would have been seen as sort of mug or touched in the head for buying something readily available for free.

You could only admire somebody like Read. He could sell sand to the Arabs

Or water to people with tastebuds

robman60

LirW wrote: »

Some cop on is needed alright, urban areas need to build up. It's laughable how everything is getting objected that's having more than 3 storeys.
My FIL is in some residents association that's currently trying to object a purpose built 7 storey student block next to UCD. His reason: it doesn't suit the area. He wouldn't see or hear it from his house, the site is nicely tucked away.
This thickness is holding up everything.
Give people apartments with good layout and storage and you can raise a family there without problem.

This is the case up and down the country. There was proposed student housing for NUIG which was ideally located in a site which is little more than a dump since the nearby housing estate was built in the late 1970s, but local residents objected to it and local council members listened. The land is to lie vacant for at least four more years.

However, possibly more frustrating than that is the fact that the student accommodation I just mentioned and highly likely the one near UCD are these ridiculously priced blocks which are beyond the reach of all bar the very rich Irish and primarily international students.

Some of these builds do not even enter near market rate. It's absolutely shocking what they're looking for on some of these student builds. For example, in Galway where rooms are around €500 a month for a good location it is €250 per week minimum in the new Edward Square residence. The Residential Tenancies Act or at least some parts of it need to be extended to student housing. These places catering to only a tiny fraction of students do little to reduce the supply issue at all as they'd rather have unoccupied rooms than charge a market rate.

At least if the student accomodation is built those richer students will take them and not instead take the cheaper places a normal student would take?

LirW

I fully understand the pricing issue but that doesn't seem to matter for locals. They don't want multi-storey buildings near their mature area. They'd object an affordable housing block too.

c montgomery

I'm very impressed with the youth of today and think millennials are much more mature, balanced, progressive and socially aware than I was at their age. This is as a collective, of course there's loads of Muppets too.

I'm basing this in the industry I work in so not a huge sample set.

I also think their very privileged to grow up in this era with so many opportunities and that this should be celebrated. The world is what you make of it!

Airyfairy12

I'm a millennial and I havnt done grocery shopping in two weeks because all my money is going on rent. I cant afford to learn how to drive, never mind buy a car or pay for insurance and tax and I had to live with my parents for most of my twenties because the recession meant no jobs.
In the early 90's my parents had 2 kids and low wage, unskilled jobs yet they were married, had a mortgage on a 3 bed house, a car, paid for childcare while my dad had a drink and gambling problem and my mother smoked 20 a day. In the mid 90's they bought a new house and a second car. All before they were 35.

I dont think avocado and toast is the problem.

oceanman

Airyfairy12 wrote: »

I'm a millennial and I havnt done grocery shopping in two weeks because all my money is going on rent. I cant afford to learn how to drive, never mind buy a car or pay for insurance and tax and I had to live with my parents for most of my twenties because the recession meant no jobs.
In the early 90's my parents had 2 kids and low wage, unskilled jobs yet they were married, had a mortgage on a 3 bed house, a car, paid for childcare while my dad had a drink and gambling problem and my mother smoked 20 a day. In the mid 90's they bought a new house and a second car. All before they were 35.

I dont think avocado and toast is the problem.

very good post..the society we live in now is just not working for so many people.

HalloweenJack

I was born in 1988. I have never had avocado toast. During the week, I have a cup of coffee (€4 for 20 capsules), a yoghurt (€1.20 for 4) and a fruit bar (€2 for 5) for breakfast so it works out at about €0.90 a day.

I haven't had a pay-rise (or a full-time contract for that matter) since I entered the work force in 2011, during which time I've been unemployed for a combined total of five months. At times, I've worked three different jobs at a time to make ends meet. I pay about 45% of my income on rent and the most money I've ever had in the bank at one time was about €4,000 which I spent on a masters. I currently have €60 to spend on myself until my next payday. I currently have no savings.

I live in Spain (partly because there was sfa available when I finished college in 2011) so things aren't as expensive as compared to Ireland, thankfully, but the effects of the recession and neo-liberal capitalism has made it far more difficult for millenials all across the world to get started in life than previous generations.

But, yeah, it's avocado toast's fault I can't afford a mortgage.

stevek93

It can be done I don't see why we spend mad amount of money on food I was born in 1993 and saving like the clappers for a mortgage. I have porridge for my breakfast which is something like 1KG for 79c in Lidl, this does me for two weeks. For lunch I bring sandwiches to work which works out 6 euro for the whole week. Dinner I make a big pot of something that does me for a few days I usually buy cheap meat in the Polish shops and make a stew this is usually less than 6 or 7 quid for the 3 days of dinner.

Wanderer78

oceanman wrote:

very good post..the society we live in now is just not working for so many people.

Increasing worker insecurity is good for the economy, particularly via methods such as debt peonage, the more people that live in this manner, the better it is for the economy, maybe there's something wrong with 'the economy'!

facehugger99

Airyfairy12 wrote: »

I'm a millennial and I havnt done grocery shopping in two weeks because all my money is going on rent. I cant afford to learn how to drive, never mind buy a car or pay for insurance and tax and I had to live with my parents for most of my twenties because the recession meant no jobs.

Sounds like bollox - what salary do you make and how much do you pay on rent?

Deebles McBeebles

I've only eaten spiders for the past year, I live under a staircase, in constant fear of The Babadook and still can't afford a mortgage.

oceanman

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Increasing worker insecurity is good for the economy, particularly via methods such as debt peonage, the more people that live in this manner, the better it is for the economy, maybe there's something wrong with 'the economy'!

can you please expand on that post..??

hobie21

This rental bubble is happening right across the world. Malta is another prime example. It suits the political class and our employer overlords to keep the working class tied to a ball and chain of debt so they will be good indentured productive employees.

Deebles McBeebles

hobie21 wrote: »

This rental bubble is happening right across the world. Malta is another prime example. It suits the political class and our employer overlords to keep the working class tied to a ball and chain of debt so they will be good indentured productive employees.

All over the world, buying and renting prices are going up. Homelessness, climate change, habitat loss...too many people. Which party is gonna tackle that one?

oceanman

oceanman wrote: »

can you please expand on that post..??

Some folk don't realise that broadly speaking the better the economy is the more we all can and do benefit.

Wanderer78

Augeo wrote: »

Some folk don't realise that broadly speaking the better the economy is the more we all can and do benefit.

whos 'economy' is spoken of when this is mentioned? is trickle down of the majority of wealth created from a prospering economy actually occurring?

Franz Von Peppercorn

Augeo wrote: »

Some folk don't realise that broadly speaking the better the economy is the more we all can and do benefit.

I don’t think that’s what wanderer meant, he was being sarcastic. And it isn’t true anyway. If wages stagnate and rents increase the economy can increase without everybody bring better off.

Wanderer78

Wanderer78 wrote: »

whos 'economy' is spoken of when this is mentioned? is trickle down of the majority of wealth created from a prospering economy actually occurring?

Employment is close to it's prepeak level iirc & Retail sales (perhaps the strongest indicator of consumer confidence) growing by 6 per cent.

When retail sales are very good there's plenty trickling down. Also when you consider the amount of stuff bought online from abroad that isn't included in the retail sales metric the growth in that metric is impressive.

The 'economy' spoken of is the one that benefits us all.

It won't extend to a free house etc for the do fnck alls but sure, how bad

Franz Von Peppercorn

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

I don’t think that’s what wanderer meant, he was being sarcastic. And it isn’t true anyway. If wages stagnate and rents increase the economy can increase without everybody bring better off.

He wasn't being sarcastic at all, he feels there is something wrong with the economy as he's 100% a lefty and reckons redistributing wealth from corporations and well paid workers above what is currently done is the way to go and of net benefit to society.

Wanderer78

Augeo wrote: »

Employment is close to it's prepeak level iirc & Retail sales (perhaps the strongest indicator of consumer confidence) growing by 6 per cent.

When retail sales are very good there's plenty trickling down. Also when you consider the amount of stuff bought online from abroad that isn't included in the retail sales metric the growth in that metric is impressive.

The 'economy' spoken of is the one that benefits us all.

It won't extend to a free house etc for the do fnck alls but sure, how bad

....and you wonder why the neoliberial/neoclassical model is falling on its arse!

this isnt gonna end well for all!

An ole speel from BlindBoy .............. clap clap. Although Blindboy probably knows the difference between neoliberial & neoclassical.

Wanderer78

Augeo wrote: »

An ole speel from BlindBoy .............. clap clap.

thankfully theres plenty of well respected commentators writing about this now, but, run along!

There's plenty well respected citizens doing an honest days work too to provide for themselves, their families and those that don't bother their hole doing similar, run along yourself :pac:

Ray Palmer

I read through a lot of this and I can tell some people were not around in the times they are talking about. There is disillusion talk about how the early 90s were somehow great and houses were easily affordable.
Things radically changed around 92 and the boom really started then. Unemployment was very high and had been for a long time with massive emigration figures. High interest rates and stamp duty meant buying a property was not just the purchase price. Even in the 00s I paid €21k in stamp duty on a modest house which was needed without a mortgage on top of the deposit.
My brother is 3 years older than me and when he finished school he was expected to be leaving the country as was I 3 years made a huge difference as there was suddenly loads of jobs. I went looking for a job after college and did 4 interviews for large company offering entry jobs with full training. I was offered 3 of them the same day. That was 95 and still amazing to think of.
House prices were rising rapidly in the 90s as Ireland caught up with the rest of the world. Ireland had the highest home ownership per person in the world. Mothers stayed at home before then so everything was based on a single salary the rest of the western world that had changed and we caught up. Increasing our work force and uping our national output. It's progress
The standard of living now is way better and a lot more is expected. In the 90s the most expensive thing most people would carry was a walkman and not everyone had one. Now they have at least a €200 phone with a service they are paying for. At home you have to have a computer device and internet access which again is not an expense in the 90s. A tv would last about 15 years and only replaced when broken.
I watched the celtic tiger years and people did go crazy. The problem is the young adults were brought up in these years and think that was what it was like for their parents growing up. It wasn't the 70s up to the mid 90s were very similar to the bleachness of the 50s and 60s in Ireland.
Standard of living is way better for the majority but poverty and social issues remain

Franz Von Peppercorn

Augeo wrote: »

He wasn't being sarcastic at all, he feels there is something wrong with the economy as he's 100% a lefty and reckons redistributing wealth from corporations and well paid workers above what is currently done is the way to go and of net benefit to society.

I don’t know what exactly he believes re distribution. I think high paid workers pay enough. Corporations don’t but that’s a separate issue.

However the idea that a growth economy helps everybody is clearly false. It used to, but there’s been a disconnect between wage growth and economic growth recently. And of course renters aren’t better off compared to a few years ago.

Franz Von Peppercorn

Augeo wrote: »

There's plenty well respected citizens doing an honest days work too to provide for themselves, their families and those that don't bother their hole doing similar, run along yourself :pac:

What about renters though?

Ray Palmer

Ray Palmer wrote: »

.............. poverty and social issues remain

Unfortunately poverty and social issues will always remain to an extent. Everyone with a mental, alcohol or substance abuse problem simply can't be catered for 100% of the time. We can strive to improve services etc of course but the expectation that everyone will be housed and we'll all live happily ever after is optimistic in the extreme.

Augeo

Augeo wrote: »

There's plenty well respected citizens doing an honest days work too to provide for themselves, their families and those that don't bother their hole doing similar, run along yourself :pac:

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

What about renters though?

Renters would be included in the bolded bit.

Franz Von Peppercorn

Ray Palmer wrote: »

In the 90s the most expensive thing most people would carry was a walkman and not everyone had one. Now they have at least a €200 phone with a service they are paying for. At home you have to have a computer device and internet access which again is not an expense in the 90s. A tv would last about 15 years and only replaced when broken.

Technology moves on. However the cost of a mobile phone over 2-3 years isn’t that much. Look at what people paid for in the 90s for CDs and DVDs and box sets. We know that these industries have migrated to devices where they are less expensive. Also people don’t buy cameras or gps systems etc. Also the landline phone was extremely expensive.

I watched the celtic tiger years and people did go crazy. The problem is the young adults were brought up in these years and think that was what it was like for their parents growing up. It wasn't the 70s up to the mid 90s were very similar to the bleachness of the 50s and 60s in Ireland.
Standard of living is way better for the majority but poverty and social issues remain

Not at all. There was no comparison between the 50s and the 90s. There was in fact massive technological change from 1950 -1990 and mobile phones aside not much after.

None of this answers the question of house costs anyway. Yes the millenials could give up a 200 phone they use for 3 years and save themselves a few days rent but it’s not going to help with house ownership.

Franz Von Peppercorn

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

................
However the idea that a growth economy helps everybody is clearly false. It used to, but there’s been a disconnect between wage growth and economic growth recently. And of course renters aren’t better off compared to a few years ago.

Rents were on the floor if you go back to 2010/2012, renters will never be better off compared to then ........

Franz Von Peppercorn

Augeo wrote: »

Renters would be included in the bolded bit.

That’s nice but are they doing better in the growing economy?

You started off saying that good economies benefit everybody. Then there’s the attack on the unemployed ( out of nowhere). Lots of goal post shifting. Why bring up the people who want a free house at all?