Sky Box Office fight night: September 22 AJ vs. AP

walshb

Cyrus wrote: »

ill be back to you alright :pac:

To say that I was right or to make excuses.......?

FTA69

Cyrus wrote: »

er david price had Povetkin on queer street as well, he just didnt have the finishing ability to put him away.

i never said Fury had the one shot power that Joshua has, but he isnt feather fisted either, to think joshua can just walk through him because he wont fear his power is naive.

I agree with you largely, I think Fury would expose Joshua provided he is mentally and physically fit.

walshb

FTA69 wrote: »

I agree with you largely, I think Fury would expose Joshua provided he is mentally and physically fit.

Does this not come across as a bit desperate? Getting in pre-made excuses should Fury get beaten, or well beaten?

They didn't fight 3 years ago because of circumstances. Fury had one win against Wlad and he went off on one.....

We can only pit them now and into the near future. Both young enough men...

Personally I think a 2014/2015 Fury would have a better chance vs. AJ, albeit me still picking AJ by KO....Better chance only because I think his feet and movement were better than they are now, and will be in the near future...

Still the same chin and same "lack of firepower" in 2014/2015 as he does today.

Cyrus

walshb wrote: »

To say that I was right or to make excuses.......?

to see if humility is a word in your vocabulary :P

walshb

Cyrus wrote: »

to see if humility is a word in your vocabulary :P

I can tell you right now that it is. I have no issue saying I was wrong....

No excuses either, unless it's found that the fight was fixed.....

Cyrus

walshb wrote: »

I can tell you right now that it is. I have no issue saying I was wrong....

No excuses either, unless it's found that the fight was fixed.....

fixed? wont be fixed in furys favour i wouldnt have thought

Blanco100

None of these guys are certainties to beat the other. There is no clear favourite in fights between Joshua, Fury and Wilder.

The Fury that beat Wlad would easily frustrate AJ and Wilder and win by decision. Not so sure now, although I do expect Fury would need to make it a stinker of a fight in order to win.

AJ seems to have more weapons and finishing ability but pouring it on against Povetkin is alot different to doing it again Fury and Wilder. Similarly, he went life or death against Wlad and could just have as easily been defeated in that instance. My view is that AJ is still transitioning into a more balanced (even more boring fighter) who will use his advantages in dimensions to rule the division. Lewis did it, Wlad did it when they dropped the gung ho approach that left them susceptible to being KO'd.

Reading this forum, it really shows there is either over estimation of Fury's ability or under estimation of it. Talk of him having a suspect chin is all well and good, but his style makes it hard to find his chin, he posesses good head movement and footwork for such a big man. He suffered some heavy knockdowns earlier in his career but hasn't been on the canvass in 5 and a half years. Saying AJ would walk him down and knock him out at will is extremely naive. Also theres an argument to be made that Povetkins jab seemed to land at will and Fury's reach advantage would mean its a mere formality that his jab would have alot of success against Joshua.

But those claiming its a certain win for Fury also need to take his inactivity into account. He has it all to prove in that respect.

All these guys have the power to hurt each other lets not kid ourselves that Fury cannot KO Joshua or vice versa. Its heavyweight boxing. Wlad had a long reign as champion with a suspect chin once he started using his dimensions and natural advantages in skill and reach over his opponents.

The issue now is we have 3 guys with size and long reach. Wilder obviously has the edge in terms of power and his unorthodox style makes him interesting aswell. He could come undone though against a fighter with similar reach but a higher ring IQ however. His power is only as good as his opponent takes it.

Fury, whilst not having the most concussive punching power probably has the best ring IQ of the 3 big men. He will frustrate the other 2, but time will tell whether he will have issues holding them off for 12 rounds.

AJ probably has more of a mix of the other 2, better ring IQ than Wilder (but not as much as Fury), and hit harder than Fury (but not as hard as Wilder), but he probably does finish better than Wilder.

Its fascinating really, none of these guys are absolutely top quality and its possible they could all beat each other. Whoever is best able to develop a style that doesn't see their whiskers get tested regularly whilst not sacrifing offensive output, this will be the guy to rule the division.

In fairness Joshua is probably the one with most potential, but he needs polishing in fairness. The "amateur pedigree" masks alot of technical flaws also of a guy who actually only had a very short but frutiful amateur career. His world championship silver is actually more impressive than his olympic medal (which was a gift).

My view: Fury will outpoint Wilder to take the WBC belt. Joshua will fight Fury for the lot and will probably win a very close decision in a fight the oppositon fans will scream robbery either way (but unless you KO Joshua you will find it hard to get a decision in the UK). But I think Joshua will show spurts of aggression that the judges will favour, whereas Fury will try and outbox him but the shots won't be clean enough. There will be periods of the fight where its clear AJ is being outboxed but it won't be that way for the duration.

Wilder V AJ could go either way in fairness, case of who lands first.

walshb

Blanco100 wrote: »

None of these guys are certainties to beat the other. There is no clear favourite in fights between Joshua, Fury and Wilder.

.

Just quoting this part...the rest of your post I enjoyed, even if I disagree/differ on it.

You could be right, and a lot of the time these scenarios with A/B and C do present.

I just do not see it here as regards Fury. For me he is on his own getting badly knocked out by both....

Wilder and AJ is one that could be a flip of a coin 10/10 times.....

FTA69

walshb wrote: »

Does this not come across as a bit desperate? Getting in pre-made excuses should Fury get beaten, or well beaten?

They didn't fight 3 years ago because of circumstances. Fury had one win against Wlad and he went off on one.....

We can only pit them now and into the near future. Both young enough men...

Personally I think a 2014/2015 Fury would have a better chance vs. AJ, albeit me still picking AJ by KO....Better chance only because I think his feet and movement were better than they are now, and will be in the near future...

Still the same chin and same "lack of firepower" in 2014/2015 as he does today.

Ah will you go on with the excuses talk. I’m being objective, I think Fury will do the business provided the demons that have haunted him aren’t on top of him still and that he performs well. That isn’t making excuses, it’s just an observation of where things are.

walshb

FTA69 wrote: »

Ah will you go on with the excuses talk. I’m being objective, I think Fury will do the business provided the demons that have haunted him aren’t on top of him still and that he performs well. That isn’t making excuses, it’s just an observation of where things are.

Ok, so it's all down to IFs with your prediction...

What else way am I to take it....?

If Fury gets knocked out will you say that had it been the 2014/2015 Fury he would have won?

Performs well? If he gets knocked out are you going to say that he didn't perform well?

It just seems that you are making excuses and setting provisions for the fight..

Maybe you are best just making your pick a fantasy pick, as in the best Fury vs. the best Wilder/AJ..

FTA69

walshb wrote: »

Ok, so it's all down to IFs with your prediction...

What else way am I to take it....?

If Fury gets knocked out will you say that had it been the 2014/2015 Fury he would have won?

Performs well? If he gets knocked out are you going to say that he didn't perform well?

It just seems that you are making excuses and setting provisions for the fight..

Maybe you are best just making your pick a fantasy pick, as in the best Fury vs. the best Wilder/AJ..

Of course it’s down to ifs, ever prediction is down to an if, that’s why it’s a guess at the end of the day. Your prediction is also a big if, ‘if’ Joshua manages to hit him...

Fury may well get blasted out of it handy, in which case I’ll have no problem saying I called it wrong. Funnily enough though, when Fury beat Wlad you were the first one out of the traps with the excuses about Wlad not being himself and being too “hesitant” etc.

walshb

FTA69 wrote: »

Of course it’s down to ifs, ever prediction is down to an if, that’s why it’s a guess at the end of the day. Your prediction is also a big if, ‘if’ Joshua manages to hit him...

Fury may well get blasted out of it handy, in which case I’ll have no problem saying I called it wrong. Funnily enough though, when Fury beat Wlad you were the first one out of the traps with the excuses about Wlad not being himself and being too “hesitant” etc.

Well, he was too hesitant. But I didn't use this as an excuse for his loss. I just made an observation. I think everyone agrees that he was, even if some want to say he was afraid of being countered, I answered that by calling him a chicken. Because for me that is what any man is if they are the so called best HW on earth and are afraid or reluctant to throw a punch because god forbid, they might get hit, in a boxing match.

Would he have won had he been a bit more eager to bet stuck in? I don't know....may have got proper counted and proper beat....but at least he would have given himself a better chance at the win....

We can never know, but it doesn't change my observation that he fought scared.

FTA69

Well I'm making observations too, that if Fury is as good as he was then he'll win in my estimation. I've no bother admitting it if I've called that completely wrong. We'll see soon enough please God.

walshb

FTA69 wrote: »

Well I'm making observations too, that if Fury is as good as he was then he'll win in my estimation. I've no bother admitting it if I've called that completely wrong. We'll see soon enough please God.

I already covered my part.

Fury from 2014 and 2015 has a better chance, and a clearly better chance than the one that will likely fight Wilder in December, and maybe AJ in 2019.

I really cannot see a big enough change in December or next year for Fury to have any real chance here.

Fury is going to be the same in December as he was a few weeks back, and it will see him getting whacked.

Blanco100

walshb wrote: »

Well, he was too hesitant. But I didn't use this as an excuse for his loss. I just made an observation. I think everyone agrees that he was, even if some want to say he was afraid of being countered, I answered that by calling him a chicken. Because for me that is what any man is if they are the so called best HW on earth and are afraid or reluctant to throw a punch because god forbid, they might get hit, in a boxing match.

Would he have won had he been a bit more eager to bet stuck in? I don't know....may have got proper counted and proper beat....but at least he would have given himself a better chance at the win....

We can never know, but it doesn't change my observation that he fought scared.

Wlad was always hesitant. This wasnt the first occasion, he just usually dug it out in the end and found a way through.

It was a stinker of a fight but credit to Fury for providing a test that Wlad could not figure out. Fury just wasnt there to tag clean like the majority of his opponents in the past have been.

Wlad did have a dilemma when his reach and size advantage was negated.

walshb

Blanco100 wrote: »

Wlad was always hesitant. This wasnt the first occasion, he just usually dug it out in the end and found a way through.

Yes, something I am aware of and have mentioned before, and something I deliberately left out in my post that you are quoting. Still doesn't change the fact that this hesitancy is a weakness in my view....

And I did say that I don't know what would have happened had he been more passionate and committed and engaging on his offense.

Did Wlad's hesitancy, something we know he has cost him the Fury fight?

I don't think this can be answered......

Blanco100

walshb wrote: »

Yes, something I am aware of and have mentioned before, and something I deliberately left out in my post that you are quoting. Still doesn't change the fact that this hesitancy is a weakness in my view....

And I did say that I don't know what would have happened had he been more passionate and committed and engaging on his offense.

Did Wlad's hesitancy, something we know he has cost him the Fury fight?

I don't think this can be answered......

That is fair enough. You could speculate the other way that Fury may have looked better had Wlad opened up on him. May have provided him with a bigger target.

Wlads hesitancy suited his make up, I dont think Wlad would have enjoyed the long reign he had if he wasnt hesitant. So it wasnt his weakness. You know yourself, he suffered some heavy defeats even after winning his 1st world title with a more cavalier approach.

A less hesitant Klitschko could have been KO'd by Fury.

But I agree, its pure speculation.

walshb

Blanco100 wrote: »

That is fair enough. You could speculate the other way that Fury may have looked better had Wlad opened up on him. May have provided him with a bigger target.

Wlads hesitancy suited his make up, I dont think Wlad would have enjoyed the long reign he had if he wasnt hesitant. So it wasnt his weakness. You know yourself, he suffered some heavy defeats even after winning his 1st world title with a more cavalier approach.

A less hesitant Klitschko could have been KO'd by Fury.

All true there......

Fury may have performed even better and landed better shots had Wlad decided to really give it a go....

Blanco100

walshb wrote: »

All true there......

Fury may have performed even better and landed better shots had Wlad decided to really give it a go....

Heavyweight boxing has changed. Some really good smaller guys stand no chance against the giants who can use superior reach to keep the punches at bay.

Did I read somewhere that Povetkin was giving up 2 stone in weight the other night? I stand corrected if that isnt exactly true but its a big difference and in another weight class its insurmountable.

Joshua will continue to beat the rest of the smaller guys. Even Usyk will come up short if he steps up. Its the land of the giants.

Thats why the 3 top guys fighting each other will be very interesting. There are real arguments to be made for all of them beating each other. Id bet that even if they all did fight each other we would be none the wiser as to who was number 1.

Playing field is very even, none of them are outstanding. Whoever develops a style that protects their chin the best going forward will rule.

Reach is king in my opinion

walshb

Blanco100 wrote: »

Heavyweight boxing has changed. Some really good smaller guys stand no chance against the giants who can use superior reach to keep the punches at bay.

Did I read somewhere that Povetkin was giving up 2 stone in weight the other night? I stand corrected if that isnt exactly true but its a big difference and in another weight class its insurmountable.

Joshua will continue to beat the rest of the smaller guys. Even Usyk will come up short if he steps up. Its the land of the giants.

Thats why the 3 top guys fighting each other will be very interesting. There are real arguments to be made for all of them beating each other. Id bet that even if they all did fight each other we would be none the wiser as to who was number 1.

Playing field is very even, none of them are outstanding. Whoever develops a style that protects their chin the best going forward will rule.

Reach is king in my opinion

AP gave away 24 lbs.....

Here's one......a prime Mike Tyson would have taken AJ out within 3 rds the other night........he weighed 218 lbs.......

Size and weight/reach are important, but so too is talent.....a man giving away lbs and inches can use it to his benefit if he has the natural skills and power at HW.

AJ actually struggled due to AP being not only shorter, but fighting crouched and short. AJ was bending downwards and looking clumsy.

Overall I think the division is poor. AJ and Wilder are the best on earth, and many here think Wilder is useless. That leaves AJ....

Blanco100

walshb wrote: »

AP gave away 24 lbs.....

Here's one......a prime Mike Tyson would have taken AJ out within 3 rds the other night........he weighed 218 lbs.......

Size and weight/reach are important, but so too is talent.....a man giving away lbs and inches can use it to his benefit if he has the natural skills and power at HW.

AJ actually struggled due to AP being not only shorter, but fighting crouched and short. AJ was bending downwards and looking clumsy.

Overall I think the division is poor. AJ and Wilder are the best on earth, and many here think Wilder is useless. That leaves AJ....

Tyson may have, he may not have. But if he did it was because he was the exception.

Tyson didnt have to face too many 6'6+ fighters in his prime let alone guys that size with amateur pedigree aswell. And whats to say that Iron Mike would have stood up to be caught flush by these giants we have today.

There are alot of tall guys with no talent I get that, but the thing is we have some very tall guys with talent in last decade (including Wlad).

Id love to see a prime Iron Mike v Vitali Klitschko. I dont think Tyson would have been big enough. Good at closing the distance but i think even a good big guy can beat a great little guy.

walshb

Blanco100 wrote: »

Tyson may have, he may not have. But if he did it was because he was the exception.

Tyson didnt have to face too many 6'6+ fighters in his prime let alone guys that size with amateur pedigree aswell. And whats to say that Iron Mike would have stood up to be caught flush by these giants we have today.

There are alot of tall guys with no talent I get that, but the thing is we have some very tall guys with talent in last decade (including Wlad).

Id love to see a prime Iron Mike v Vitali Klitschko. I dont think Tyson would have been big enough. Good at closing the distance but i think even a good big guy can beat a great little guy.

I'd be 99 percent sure that a 220 lbs Tyson wipes Wilder out.....and AJ

Tyson had an excellent chin, and a very good defense.. Neither AJ or Wilder keep him honest, or at bay.....

Fury would get broken in two I reckon....yes, he has loads of height, but Mike will find that body and head. A pitter patter Fury jab ain't getting him a win.....

normanoffside

Wilder is lighter than Povetkin though..

walshb

normanoffside wrote: »

Wilder is lighter than Povetkin though..

True.....

hence my point that not always is weight and size/reach/height an automatic advantage....

Wilder does have real height and reach though, as well as natural power...

AP lacked the height and reach, as well as being clearly lighter...

FTA69

Fury himself has said that Mike Tyson would batter him, and he's not exactly one for self-deprecation. Tyson would beat all the current lot I think, but that's because he's on a level of talent the other ones simply aren't.

Try_harder

I would question AJs actual amateur pedigree- take 2012 out of London- he would not have meddalled. A lot of decisions went his way


Correction- he would have gotten bronze

Sprinter Sacre

Try_harder wrote: »

I would question AJs actual amateur pedigree- take 2012 out of London- he would not have meddalled. A lot of decisions went his way


Correction- he would have gotten bronze

Correction - he would have been out at the first round. No way in hell he beat Savon.

Try_harder

Sprinter Sacre wrote: »

Correction - he would have been out at the first round. No way in hell he beat Savon.

Was Savon not the semi? If not then no medal- he never won that fight

Try_harder

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/olympics/article-2182376/London-2012-Olympics-Boxing-Anthony-Joshua-beats-Erislandy-Savon-17-16.html

Even the mail pulled no punches

megadodge

Try_harder wrote: »

I would question AJs actual amateur pedigree- take 2012 out of London- he would not have meddalled. A lot of decisions went his way


Correction- he would have gotten bronze

I agree with those who question the Savon result, but if I would suggest looking at Joshua's World Silver medal in 2011 if you want a look at his pedigree. That was quality for a person with so little experience.