Profit in Summer Grazing

Dakota Dan

TooOldBoots wrote: »

I think their'd be more money out of making and selling the fodder off the farm.
Average enough land would produce about 18 bales per acre. Sell bales at 10 euro profit = 180 per acre plus add back on the sfp and Glas and you would be on easier money than trying to buy bullocks, feed them, dose them, test them, do all the herding for the year then sell them for less than you paid for them in spring!

Until you hit a year of surplus fodder or dodgey payers. I did it long enough with my own sage gear, it’s a fools game.

Siamsa Sessions

charolais0153 wrote: »

I dont think any cattle finished out of shed leave anything.
Had an angus heifer calf march 17 bought to suck a cow, kept ticking over. Shes being killed today. I think she'll kill 260 kilos maybe more. Sold to butcher,might get 3.90 we'll see. Prob make 1000 or a bit with it. Bought for 250e as a calf.she didnt cost the world and got only 80kg meal to finish her. Should increase the ko a bit. You would Prob buy weanling heifers over 200kg for 400 now. Would be a nice turn in them. Easier kept than heifer twice their age in a straw shed

If 2018 had been different, we would have bought those kind of heifers now and tried to finish them on grass/meal for this time next year, but no silage means that's out the window for 12 months. Thanks for the insight and fair play to ya for turning a few Euro given the year that's in it.

Bass Reeves wrote: »

If the If you have to keep them in a shed ffrom late October to March to finish to finish you would be at nothing. Straw bedding finishing cattle is a disaster. Impossible to keep straw under them. If they were 270 kgs in March and you put 180 kgs on them during the summer you would expect to have them 450 at housing in October. 50 days finishing would have them out pre Christmass at 250 DW. Assuming that they are HE/AA and they grade O-/O= on balance and you get the breed bonus of 10c/kg at a base of 4/kg thsi would give you a final price of 3.95/kg or a gross pricwe of 987. If they cost you 575 in the yard in the spring it would leave a gross margin of 402.

Costs ?, grass 75 euro, dosing-vet-mortality 25 euro, transport-mart fees-slaughter fees 45 euro. finishing costs 50days at 2.70/day 135 euro, misc 30 euro. Total costs are 310 euro, net margin is 92 euro.

Looks like we might be better off buying slightly heavier animals (300kg) in Spring and aiming to finish pre-Christmas, with as short a time as possible in the shed. As has been said on here before, the margin is decided the day you buy. If you pay too much, they'll cost you money. We were caught like this with store lambs before.

If we went down the summer grazing route, the 300kg animal in March should be 480kg in October and leave a gross margin of 960 - 600 = 360 (using 2.00/kg as a base). Costs: as above just with slightly lower grass and finishing costs, say 250, giving a net margin of 110 - give or take a tenner here or there.

Tis an education to be part of boards - thanks again for the figures and experience.

tanko

Hmmm, if a 300kg animal is only worth €2/kg in March, the same animal will hardly make €2/kg or even close to that in October.

Siamsa Sessions

tanko wrote: »

Hmmm, if a 300kg animal is only worth €2/kg in March, the same animal will hardly make €2/kg or even close to that in October.

I was being overly simple. Would 2.20/kg be more accurate for March, meaning 300 gross margin and 50 profit after costs?

tanko

Siamsa Sessions wrote: »

tanko wrote: »

Hmmm, if a 300kg animal is only worth €2/kg in March, the same animal will hardly make €2/kg or even close to that in October.

I was being overly simple. Would 2.20/kg be more accurate for March, meaning 300 gross margin and 50 profit after costs?

Doubtful i'd say.
I sold three eleven month old calves in April this year, 2 AA bullocks 260 and 280 kgs made €680 each and a Saler x Lim heifer 280 kgs made €720. Runts is all they were.
2.20 kg would have bought nothing around 300kgs that day.

BENDYBINN

This thread has me baffled.If summer grazing doesn’t pay then it pays for no one including the man who lets his stock out of the shed on first April.Whats the difference?

kk.man

BENDYBINN wrote: »

This thread has me baffled.If summer grazing doesn’t pay then it pays for no one including the man who lets his stock out of the shed on first April.Whats the difference?

+1 No point in buying small store cattle in the spring and returning to the mart in the fall with the hope of a twist.

kk.man

BENDYBINN wrote: »

This thread has me baffled.If summer grazing doesn’t pay then it pays for no one including the man who lets his stock out of the shed on first April.Whats the difference?

+1 No point in buying small store cattle in the spring and returning to the mart in the fall with the hope of a twist.

Panch18

The profit in summer grazing is not between what you buy and sell a bullock for

It’s the difference between what you sell him for and what you buy his replacement

You’ll make a bit of money at it, you won’t be rich but will any beef farmer

Couple things to bear in mind 1) tb can be a problem so you need a get out plan. 2) you mightnt make money every year, but over the medium term you could make 200 an acre

Willfarman

How do you buy the exact same bullock twice?

Muckit

TB Hadn't factored that in! Hmmmm

charolais0153

Muckit wrote: »

TB Hadn't factored that in! Hmmmm

Or else buy animals that will still be in test by the time you sell them

J.O. Farmer

charolais0153 wrote: »

Muckit wrote: »

TB Hadn't factored that in! Hmmmm

Or else buy animals that will still be in test by the time you sell them

You'll still need an annual herd test so at least need some cattle that day.

Leaving it until you've some sold and you risk being held up over the winter.

Having it early you risk not being able to buy in.

Panch18

Tb can be a major problem, so you need to have some kind of fall back

Could be 1) buy cull cows 2) buy Hereford and Angus that you could fatten 3) heifers 4) have access to a shed and silage 5) buy a heavy bullock in spring

Did the summer grazing thing for a few years and will be doing it again next year due to a lack of silage

It has to be said it removes a lot of work, no feeding cattle in winter, no slurry etc. It’s a handy operation

Muckit

I am looking to transition to summer grazing. So buy in in the spring (St.Patricks at the earliest) and sell all at back end. The economics doesn't come into it, so please no debate on this.

My herd test is currently start of March. But with new system l wouldn't have any cattle bought by then. So how should l go about moving herd test ? Is there a minimum number of need bought for test? What would l be looking out for with tb test dates with cattle ld buy?

Tks for all relevant info.

Mol88

1 animal will do to test.you can let your test go untill you buy but you will get letters from department.just remember if a neighbor goes down four months after your test date you will have to test again this will be your new yearly test date and if you pass as there is more to in area you could be asked to test again in four months bear in mind you could have a reactor your self at any test even a false reactor.you can still sell to feedlot but price will be poor but if money doesn't come into it.but have a back up plan.ie cash in Bank for feed.anc 7 months stock not just making up stock numbers or end of March realistically is November u can't just use more stock over 5 months.also keeping Grass quality right can be a issue unless selling silage then you have p k off take to think about.selling silage is expensive on land.

Panch18

Muckit wrote: »

I am looking to transition to summer grazing. So buy in in the spring (St.Patricks at the earliest) and sell all at back end. The economics doesn't come into it, so please no debate on this.

My herd test is currently start of March. But with new system l wouldn't have any cattle bought by then. So how should l go about moving herd test ? Is there a minimum number of need bought for test? What would l be looking out for with tb test dates with cattle ld buy?

Tks for all relevant info.

Would you consider cull cows? Then tb not a problem

Muckit

Panch18 wrote: »

Would you consider cull cows? Then tb not a problem

I'm listening. Tell me more. Only thing ld be concerned with is work with mastitis etc. Dry stock are very little hardship at the mo. And this even less farm related work l want.

Mooooo

Muckit wrote: »

I'm listening. Tell me more. Only thing ld be concerned with is work with mastitis etc. Dry stock are very little hardship at the mo. And this even less farm related work l want.

If you buy off farm just ask for them to be dried off properly, would be a big help then just keep on top of flies really. If an issue does come up in the summer with an animal which is the most likely time, depending on scenario just send them straight up the ramp perhaps

Jb1989

Panch18 wrote: »

Would you consider cull cows? Then tb not a problem

How's tb not a problem with culls?

Mooooo

Jb1989 wrote: »

How's tb not a problem with culls?

Idea buying culls is that they'd be going to finish before winter as opposed to being stuck with stock for a winter if you get locked up

Jb1989

Mooooo wrote: »

Idea buying culls is that they'd be going to finish before winter as opposed to being stuck with stock for a winter if you get locked up

Yes, that's a fair point.

Wegian

Anyone have the numbers run on doing this with sheep?

patsy_mccabe

If doing Cull Cows Muckit, you'd want to be selling them at peak summer prices. Cull cow factory prices are always the first to fall mid summer. You have to get in ahead of this fall, to maximise profit.

148multi

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

I doing Cull Cows Muckit, you'd want to be selling them at peak summer prices. Cull cow factory prices are always the first to fall mid summer. You have to get in ahead of this fall, to maximise profit.

Not trying to put you off, but some culls will be in calf, did it years ago and found about 30% in calf which I didn't mind. If you can handle them it is an extra income stream selling a few sucks.

cute geoge

Imo cull cows might work on dry ground but if land is heavy they would need to be a low stocking rate ,good cull cows also command a premium price come mid march so it is hard to win no matter what you try

Mooooo

Different part of the country but the only person I know at it down here is dairy culls he buys. Obv the margin is made in the lower cost price

Siamsa Sessions

Wegian wrote: »

Anyone have the numbers run on doing this with sheep?

You mean buying ewes with lambs at foot in March? Or store lambs in August?

patsy_mccabe

148multi wrote: »

Not trying to put you off, but some culls will be in calf, did it years ago and found about 30% in calf which I didn't mind. If you can handle them it is an extra income stream selling a few sucks.

Sorry Typo mistake. Corrected it above. :rolleyes:
I'm not at culls. Only have experience from selling my own suckler ones.

kk.man

Mooooo wrote: »

Different part of the country but the only person I know at it down here is dairy culls he buys. Obv the margin is made in the lower cost price

I know at least two who were/are in serious trouble at that game. When cattle fall in price the cull far is 1st hit. A cull cow would eat you out of house and home. The type of diary cull is a very different cull than 10 or even 5 years ago, they don't lend well to finishing. TB is a big issue especially if you sell other stock at marts.

Not putting anyone off but that's my take on that job.

Bass Reeves

TBH Muckit it more reducing losses from summer grazing. In general SG seems to be cycle system it used to be slightly above 3 in 5 profit cycle. Every system has it flaws. The biggest issue is the majority of your grass is grown from mid April unto mid July. If you are finish cattle, at the end of this period demand is still growing. If you do not want to be baling 30-50% of the farm every year you need to reduce demand from mid June on. That would be in the form of starting to offload either through the mart in a store system or starting to slaughter in a finishing system.

It is virtually impossible to buy cattle in March that will break even at slaughter in Mid/late June. You would have to buy heavy stores above the 550kg mark whick is a capital intensive business. If it was a 50 acre farm and you stocked at 1.5 cattle/acres you need 75 cattle and this may not be enough to control grass especialy in a good year.

On a funding basis if you split your heard into 3 groups 1/3 for early summer finish, 1/3 mid/late summer and 1/3 autumn finish what amount of capital would you need. 25X 1200/head 25X1000/head + 25X850/head that is a 75K capital cost at start of the year.

Even if the first 25 were cull cows at 750 each you would need 65K. If these prices had haulage and mart fees on top add another 2K to costs.

If you stocked 1/acre the costs would be 2/3 of the above but you have to eith make silage or sell as a standing crop.

Muckit

Plan is to run the bare minimum stocking rate for ANC. Take up fence reels and leave farm in about 5 sections. Spread bare minimum of fert only on what was silage ground to keep PRG.
No fert on rest. Keep topper on tractor and top out large sections fortnightly as and when suits.

No silage will.be made. No cattle will be housed.

Hours reduced in Summer and the winter off.
Looking like l'll stick to dry heifers. It's what l know and love had very little hassle with them to date.

The TB testing date really was my main question.

Bass Reeves

Muckit wrote: »

Plan is to run the bare minimum stocking rate for ANC. Take up fence reels and leave farm in about 5 sections. Spread bare minimum of fert only on what was silage ground to keep PRG.
No fert on rest. Keep topper on tractor and top out large sections fortnightly as and when suits.

No silage will.be made. No cattle will be housed.

Hours reduced in Summer and the winter off.
Looking like l'll stick to dry heifers. It's what l know and love had very little hassle with them to date.

The TB testing date really was my main question.

If you are used to heifers I stick with them. Minimum stocking rate for ANC is 0.15 LU/HA over 12 months. For a summer grazing season of 7 months is about 0.27LU/HA for 7 months. A two year old animal to about 9 acres. If the farm is any good to grow grass the topper will be going 24/7.

Dinzee Conlee

Muckit wrote: »

Plan is to run the bare minimum stocking rate for ANC. Take up fence reels and leave farm in about 5 sections. Spread bare minimum of fert only on what was silage ground to keep PRG.
No fert on rest. Keep topper on tractor and top out large sections fortnightly as and when suits.

No silage will.be made. No cattle will be housed.

Hours reduced in Summer and the winter off.
Looking like l'll stick to dry heifers. It's what l know and love had very little hassle with them to date.

The TB testing date really was my main question.

Why would you not keep the minimum stock on a smaller acreage, and let some land for silage - this would at least pay for the fertilser rather than you having to pay for it. Maybe try to get some slurry on it as well as part of the deal?

Anto_Meath

Dinzee Conlee wrote: »

Why would you not keep the minimum stock on a smaller acreage, and let some land for silage - this would at least pay for the fertilser rather than you having to pay for it. Maybe try to get some slurry on it as well as part of the deal?

There is a lad beside me at that, he has about 50 Acres and stock keeps 18 cattle to activate his entitlements on about 15 acres roughish ground, takes in pig slurry in the spring and spreads a bit of fert on about 35 acres and then sells the crop standing, I have bought it off him the last few years (€4,000 for the 35 acres) suits me and him. He then grazes the after grass, a lad put sheep on it for awhile last back end winter. He buys nice little CH yearlings bulls in the spring and then sells them in October, even this year he probably had €100 - €150 ahead which would cover his costs but no real work for him. He is careful about buying farmers cattle so that his bullocks only have 2 moves when he is selling them.

Bass Reeves

Anto_Meath wrote: »

There is a lad beside me at that, he has about 50 Acres and stock keeps 18 cattle to activate his entitlements on about 15 acres roughish ground, takes in pig slurry in the spring and spreads a bit of fert on about 35 acres and then sells the crop standing, I have bought it off him the last few years (€4,000 for the 35 acres) suits me and him. He then grazes the after grass, a lad put sheep on it for awhile last back end winter. He buys nice little CH yearlings bulls in the spring and then sells them in October, even this year he probably had €100 - €150 ahead which would cover his costs but no real work for him. He is careful about buying farmers cattle so that his bullocks only have 2 moves when he is selling them.

He is probably still at nothing. What is a bit of fertlizer a bag urea/acres two ton costing 720-800 euro. Is he spreading on the after grass is he spreading fertlizer on the rough ground. If he is keeping 18 yearlings on 15 acres for spring he need to spread a bit to get grass growing. We give it he buys 4 ton costing 1600 euro.

Usually pig slurry at best is free delivery but most of the time it costs 8-10 euro/1K gallons to be delivered. We will take it that it is spread straight away and no adgitating is needed. To maintain P&K levels he would need 3K gallons/acre or 105K gallons on to the farm. He could do this under the rules of nitrates. It will cost a minimum of about 1K to spread with no adgitating.

If he is paying for delivery to keep fertility it would cost him 2.5-3K/ year and that is not allowing for lime. At best with maintaining the farm he is breaking even if that. Selling silage is an expensive business when you take soil fertility into account.

memorystick

Selling silage should only be short term.

Anto_Meath

He isn't paying anything for the pig slurry, he isn't that far from the pig farm, but in Meath (Pig farm is in Cavan so pig farmers spreads it FOC). He could be getting a wee pit of slurry on 3 times a year. The silage ground gets some after the silage is cut, a few fields will also get a nice cover at the start of October, if they are bare and the whole place will get another good covering at the end of January. No fert goes on the rough ground or the after grass, & about 4 tonne of slurry balance goes on the silage ground, spread himself. I think he could be in Glas as well, as the meadows are never ready to cut until July. He would have a good single farm payment as well. He says the cattle are a hobby and he makes his money from the cheque in the post.

Bass Reeves

Anto_Meath wrote: »

He isn't paying anything for the pig slurry, he isn't that far from the pig farm, but in Meath (Pig farm is in Cavan so pig farmers spreads it FOC). He could be getting a wee pit of slurry on 3 times a year. The silage ground gets some after the silage is cut, a few fields will also get a nice cover at the start of October, if they are bare and the whole place will get another good covering at the end of January. No fert goes on the rough ground or the after grass, & about 4 tonne of slurry balance goes on the silage ground, spread himself. I think he could be in Glas as well, as the meadows are never ready to cut until July. He would have a good single farm payment as well. He says the cattle are a hobby and he makes his money from the cheque in the post.

He is grand if he is getting that much slurry spread free. Big difference in the cost if spread. However most of the country will not have access to slurry free. If there is only a single pig farm in a 10-15 Mike radius they will charge for delivery and you spread yourself.

Muckit

Yeah prob will run a few more than bare minimum. Tis a change of lifestyle really for the next few years, and who knows, l may continue. The thing is l have options. Tis as much to getting my head straight that farm isn't a milestone. Making it work for me, rather than other way around! I guess the way beef is going the next few years is giving the extra push to make the change.

There isn't really a close knit farming community round here. Everyone doing their own thing.
I want the freedom to be able to go off on a 1 or 2week family holiday a year and not have the farm to consider.

Even during the summer it will be nice not to be concerning myself with weather and silage and drawing in bales. Also lovely not to have to venture off to yard in the wintertime.

Tis a lifestyle decision really.

Gman1987

Muckit wrote: »

Yeah prob will run a few more than bare minimum. Tis a change of lifestyle really for the next few years, and who knows, l may continue. The thing is l have options. Tis as much to getting my head straight that farm isn't a milestone. Making it work for me, rather than other way around! I guess the way beef is going the next few years is giving the extra push to make the change.

There isn't really a close knit farming community round here. Everyone doing their own thing.
I want the freedom to be able to go off on a 1 or 2week family holiday a year and not have the farm to consider.

Even during the summer it will be nice not to be concerning myself with weather and silage and drawing in bales. Also lovely not to have to venture off to yard in the wintertime.

Tis a lifestyle decision really.

Would leasing out a good portion of the farm on a tax free long term lease be an option and keep a small bit for yourself for a hobby?

Bass Reeves

Ger1987 wrote: »

Would leasing out a good portion of the farm on a tax free long term lease be an option and keep a small bit for yourself for a hobby?

Leasing is really only an option if you are in dairy country. The heat is going out if it anyway. A lot of lads that are leading will get a land at renewal time as rules of BPS and levels of payments are changing.

Something has to give on the beef side over next 2 years. Lads are not just walking away they are starting to jog now. Calf issue for dairy farmers is coming to a head and there will need to be rapid change to keep calf store man around

Gman1987

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Leasing is really only an option if you are in dairy country. The heat is going out if it anyway. A lot of lads that are leading will get a land at renewal time as rules of BPS and levels of payments are changing.

Something has to give on the beef side over next 2 years. Lads are not just walking away they are starting to jog now. Calf issue for dairy farmers is coming to a head and there will need to be rapid change to keep calf store man around

Agree with you there. Land around here though is making €250/ac on long term lease + 65% of entitlements. Its certainly worth considering if your on the higher rate of tax as its unlikely you'll make that off beef farming.

Having said that, I do a bit of farming on a small scale part time basis where I keep around 70 cattle for the summer. I'd say I would have roughly the same out of it after tax as renting out the land tax free so really I'm putting in my time for free.... I dont think I would ever rent it out though as I enjoy being out on the farm too much.

Muckit

How are you sourcing cattle Ger and how are you selling? Do you do all yourself? Good bit of work in getting 70 cattle together and good few loads to sell in the back end.

I'm lucky being small fry.

Bass Reeves

Ger1987 wrote: »

Agree with you there. Land around here though is making €250/ac on long term lease + 65% of entitlements. Its certainly worth considering if your on the higher rate of tax as its unlikely you'll make that off beef farming.

Having said that, I do a bit of farming on a small scale part time basis where I keep around 70 cattle for the summer. I'd say I would have roughly the same out of it after tax as renting out the land tax free so really I'm putting in my time for free.... I dont think I would ever rent it out though as I enjoy being out on the farm too much.

Do not think you get the colour of that around me. Most is moving at 150/ acres AFAIK and no gra for for BPS. No real demand for long-term leases. As well lads lose ANC and GLAS. On a 50 acre farm that is about 4-5k.

It where BPS is high there is a willingness to give 60%of it. If it sub 300/HA not the same demand to give away 60% of it. S lot of the places making that sort of dish are dairy farms that are set up and extended easily

amacca

What I'm getting from this thread so far is all things being even theres no way to make money at beef for a middling to average operator (and possibly not for a good one either going forward) , its a case of reducing losses!

Siamsa Sessions

amacca wrote: »

What I'm getting from this thread so far is all things being even theres no way to make money at beef for a middling to average operator (and possibly not for a good one either going forward) , its a case of reducing losses!

Looks to be all connected to me:

* less work
* less debt/risk thru lower input costs
* less pressure on the animals and the soil via lower stocking rates
* same level of direct payments

Might well outweigh what could be just a small reduction in turnover.

Bonus: doesn't feel like factories, Teagasc, Dept., etc. are laughing at you so much

Gman1987

Muckit wrote: »

How are you sourcing cattle Ger and how are you selling? Do you do all yourself? Good bit of work in getting 70 cattle together and good few loads to sell in the back end.

I'm lucky being small fry.

I had 17 outwintered coming into this year which I bought in November. I generally take two weeks off work in the second half of March so this year I hit three marts each week between Monday, Monday night and Tuesday to pick up the balance. I'm not at this too long but looking back at the comments I agree the day you buy is the day you sell i.e. Pay too much or buy dirt and your're at nothing. I learnt that lesson last year where I got expensive continental weanlings bought for me. They looked good in the field but didnt leave money as the continental type cattle prices fell more last year than the AAX/HEX type of cattle. This year I have AAX and HEX cattle with a few LM also.

Muckit

Yeah that's serious. 2weeks. Sure you'd have to. It depends what way you want to spend your annual leave really. If you see it as a holiday or is it time pulled from other stuff.

Some lads talk about getting an agent to buy for you. But their really isn't enough skin in it for that. Says it all.

This is the crux of it for me. I've been farming same as most here since l could walk. It's kinda been there, done that now now at this stage. Have done as much as l can with the land l been given.

Time for a change and a bit of a break from the drudgery.

Anto_Meath

Agent wouldn't be something I could go for, you are better off buying and selling your own cattle in my opinion. Was talking to a lad last night in the mart who buys and sells cattle for people and he would be sound enough. He had 30 cattle in the mart yesterday between buying and selling for different people plus 6 for himself. He said he made more on the 30 cattle (€10 for buying / selling & €10 for hauling) than he did on his own 6 and I would safely say he was telling the truth.