External Hires Paid More

LegacyUser

Hi,

So I've two issues that have cropped up in work in the last week that I could do with some advice on whether I should go to my manager with or not.

First, a colleague of mine has left recently so her job is up for hire and I've noticed from a recruiting site that the salary being offered is higher than what I'm currently on despite doing the same work. She left in July so the job is obviously hard to fail at that salary (it's lower than market rate) but it annoys me that someone new would be coming in and earning more than me despite me likely having to train them on things. Should I say to my manager on the salary difference and ask for a raise (I've got one already this year but it's still lower than what's being offered externally).

Second and the one that probably annoys me more even though I'm not sure what difference it makes to my work, but for project costs, we've an internal rate that each developer/tester/analyst etc goes for. I'm not sure how it relates to salary or if it does, but I've seen a 2019 budget report (not even sure if I should have seen that) that lists out the rates per team member that has my rate vastly under other roles where we might be doing similar work. It also marks me as a junior team member rather than senior despite having being working here 5 years and others in different teams are here less and marked as senior. For example, on a current project I'm working on, I'm making changes to PL/SQL packages and other team members are also making changes to similar packages but their project rate is far higher than mine (nearly double). I'm not even sure if my manager can do anything on it, but it does annoy me a lot that I'm referred to as a junior developer on our team despite having the 2nd most experience on my own team and having more experience than developers in different teams. Should I go to my manager with this and ask for an explanation on why I'm down as junior and the difference in rates.

Thanks,

CruelCoin

You can certainly ask, but your boss is under no obligation to promote you on the basis of time.

The others may have received the senior label because management value them more, or they've negotiated for it, you don't know.

I'd ask for a raise but make damned sure to make the request on the back of your competency and value, and not on the back of time served.

OMM 0000

There are many reasons why you may be paid less than other people.

a) Bad negotiation skills

b) Lower performance

c) Worse relationship with the company

d) Time for a pay raise

e) Employer seeing what they can get away with

f) Employer not really paying attention to your salary

Etc.

Have a friendly chat with your manager about it. Be nice and reasonable, don't be angry.

_Brian

The explanation is they are paid more and what others earn isn’t really your concern.

If you feel you should be paid more then definitely go to your manager and make a case based on YOUR worth and performance.

beauf

What they are saying is you should negotiate a better deal for yourself, but don't mention the other people.

If they don't offer the same as new people then they don't value the same and you should try going elsewhere.

As most people do better when they move around. not always, but usually.

jimmycrackcorm

As you work in IT then you should know this.. Project rates are irrelevant, they only matter to project managers and have no relevance to your salary.

Normally project resource rates look very high because they take into account salary plus overheads.

As for your salary being lower than that being advertised, it comes down to the simple fact that you're unwilling to change jobs.

minikin

Apply for the vacant position in your current company, would certainly make a point.

LegacyUser

Hi,

Thanks for the replies. It's not so much that I think I should be paid more (I do but already had those discussions with my manager), it's that they're hiring someone who will most likely have less experience than me and expect me to train them when they're being paid more than me, which I think is a bit of an insult.

For the other scenario, on the project rates. They're internal project rates used for budgeting on a project. It doesn't affect my actual job (that I know of), and they wouldn't actually be meant to be seen (if someone leaves something on a public drive though I'll find it hence I've seen it) but to me, it says that others are valued more by the company internally than I am even though at the end of the day, the 2 of us might be asked to do the same work.

I can't understand the difference between mine and others that I've seen on the budget as we're all working for the same company so our overheads would be the same, and I can't imagine all the other developers are earning the exact same wage as their rates are the same as each other, just mine is a lot less as it's a different team. To me, it looks like the company doesn't value the team I'm on as much as normal software development even though we end up working on the same projects and doing the same work at times anyway.

I don't actually expect to get a raise if I say something on the external ad I saw, as I got a 3k raise 3 months ago, and I don't think my manager can do anything on the rates, but I'm wondering should I voice my frustration with it to the manager as at least then they'll be aware of it and that it's something that has annoyed me (and one of my colleagues I showed it too as well but I'd leave him out of it).

Jim2007

shouldisaysomething wrote: »

First, a colleague of mine has left recently so her job is up for hire and I've noticed from a recruiting site that the salary being offered is higher than what I'm currently on despite doing the same work.

shouldisaysomething wrote: »

I've seen a 2019 budget report (not even sure if I should have seen that) that lists out the rates per team member that has my rate vastly under other roles where we might be doing similar work. It also marks me as a junior team member rather than senior despite having being working here 5 years and others in different teams are here less and marked as senior.

Working backwards, if your recharge rate is as you say it is after five years, then that would suggest that they are not able to get the rate for you on the projects - the project manager/Leader is not will to have you consume a large part of their budget, meaning that you may not be seen to be contributing to projects as well as everyone else.

As for salary, if they can't get the same recharge rates for you on projects as they do for others, then don't expect that you will get pay you the same.

By all means have a chat with your manager and see what they say. But be prepared to hear some unpleasant realities and don't make ultimatums or anything like that. I remember one colleague who had a conversation like that with our manager and he ended with: "If I don't get 20% then I'm leaving". The response was: "fine, I accept your resignation and I'll have security escort you off the premises"!

piplip87

The job market is much more competitive now than it was 5 years ago when you started. Companies are having to add a couple of extra grand to get the same caliber of worker they would have got 5 years ago.

My advice is to look at simaler roles, see what the going rate is, apply for a couple of them then approach your boss and ask for a rise. If they don't match what their offering the new hire then look elsewhere.

beauf

You are better not talking to anyone, and seeing what your worth elsewhere by doing interviews and applying for jobs.

If you get a lot of interest and even a job offer then maybe approach your manager. I'd just leave myself.

jimd2

minikin wrote: »

Apply for the vacant position in your current company, would certainly make a point.

That was my first thought.

titan18

I'm the OP but posting anonymously takes too long, so might as well post normally.

I talked to my manager and they gave me reasons in regards to the second point about how rates were calculated and salary is not a determining factor on it. However, I then asked about the ad I saw on the recruiting site and was told we hadn't posted anything with them and that must be a different company. Of course, I contacted recruiter to see was it where I work or not, and turns out it was where I work. My manager just directly lied to my face regarding salary, which is great.

NinjaTruncs

If you want to get the market rate you really have to change jobs. I've seen it many times, someone joins the company in a position and get small increases year on year, while market rate increases at a quicker rate. Someone new joins the team and turns out to be getting paid more than the experienced people purely because that's what the company had to pay them to get them in, but the company doesn't retroactively increase the existing employees.

When it is brought up by the existing employee they may get a small increase but not enough to bring them on par with the new employee, only when the original employee gets a new job offer will the company get serious and offer a decent increase to an existing employee.

If I were you, I'd go looking for a new job, get an offer and if you want to stay with your current company try to negotiate with them, they should at least offer you what they are offering the replacement. If you can get this done before they can hire someone new, you may have them over a barrel and could potentially get more than they are offering the new hire. But simply asking without having a counteroffer from a different company is unlikely to get you very much.

_Brian

I think the brutal question here is are you happy with what you are being paid and do you feel you are really worth more. You need to honestly ask yourself these questions.

Worrying about what others are paid more than you is about ego and pride, if your happy with your pay then fine. If you feel your worth more then act on it or you’ll never be content.

I’ve never ever entertained a conversation that started with “he’s paid more than me”, or “he’s paid more yet I’m supposed to train him”.
If you believe your worth more then be prepared and have your facts ready to show management why your worth more to the company, otherwise it’s petty jealousy and nobody gets pay increases on the back of that.

titan18

_Brian wrote: »

I think the brutal question here is are you happy with what you are being paid and do you feel you are really worth more. You need to honestly ask yourself these questions.

Worrying about what others are paid more than you is about ego and pride, if your happy with your pay then fine. If you feel your worth more then act on it or you’ll never be content.

I’ve never ever entertained a conversation that started with “he’s paid more than me”, or “he’s paid more yet I’m supposed to train him”.
If you believe your worth more then be prepared and have your facts ready to show management why your worth more to the company, otherwise it’s petty jealousy and nobody gets pay increases on the back of that.

I do tbh, and I have done what you've said there, and I'd usually get something (I had a raise 3 months ago), but there's always a point where they go, we can only give you this much due to budgets and constraints. It's happened every time I've asked for one and even outside those times, any of the salary reviews I've had have come out with that, whilst at the same point telling me I'm underpaid after they work out their salary scales.

That's fair enough but then to see that not be a consideration elsewhere in the company isn't good at the same point.

I know I'm underpaid, but then my assumption was well, everyone is underpaid here, we choose that for some of the other benefits we have (which are nice). Finding out, nope, you're underpaid, others aren't as much is what's happened here tbh, along with my manager lying about it.

beauf

You could also try to switch to the better paid team, or a different manager.

Sometimes you have to see where the money (and promotions) are in a company, and if your route to more money or promotions is blocked due to either

the work you are doing or
the team you are in, or indeed
the manager you are under
the company you are in.

Then move laterally to move out from under this ceiling.

_Brian

titan18 wrote: »

I do tbh, and I have done what you've said there, and I'd usually get something (I had a raise 3 months ago), but there's always a point where they go, we can only give you this much due to budgets and constraints. It's happened every time I've asked for one and even outside those times, any of the salary reviews I've had have come out with that, whilst at the same point telling me I'm underpaid after they work out their salary scales.

That's fair enough but then to see that not be a consideration elsewhere in the company isn't good at the same point.

I know I'm underpaid, but then my assumption was well, everyone is underpaid here, we choose that for some of the other benefits we have (which are nice). Finding out, nope, you're underpaid, others aren't as much is what's happened here tbh, along with my manager lying about it.

Managers are often in the position not being able to 100% tell tue truth, “shiit buffers” is often a good description of management in many companies. Taking in the shiit from above, filtering it through and passing the minimum on to those below.

I myself work on a position where I’m not earning to my maximum in €€ terms, but other conditions more than compensate for that which really suit my lifestyle so I’m really happy. The minute that changes I’ll be looking elsewhere.

Wildly Boaring

titan18 wrote: »

I'm the OP but posting anonymously takes too long, so might as well post normally.

I talked to my manager and they gave me reasons in regards to the second point about how rates were calculated and salary is not a determining factor on it. However, I then asked about the ad I saw on the recruiting site and was told we hadn't posted anything with them and that must be a different company. Of course, I contacted recruiter to see was it where I work or not, and turns out it was where I work. My manager just directly lied to my face regarding salary, which is great.

Your manager quite probably hasn't lied.
Recruitment agencies often advertise roles they don't have. Hoping to get a good candidate or 2 and then go unsolicited to the original advertising company

Jim2007

titan18 wrote: »

I know I'm underpaid, but then my assumption was well, everyone is underpaid here, we choose that for some of the other benefits we have (which are nice). Finding out, nope, you're underpaid, others aren't as much is what's happened here tbh, along with my manager lying about it.

I would suggest it a case of them paying you what they think you are worth to them and it does not sound like they are willing to go beyond that. So either you accept it or move on.

bpmurray

I worked up to recently with a large multinational computer company and this is typical what happens there. The pay rates for each position is a range and you're probably sitting somewhere in it. New hires, of course, are moving with the intention of getting an increase so they have to offer starting pay somewhere higher on that scale. Now, your manager's hands are probably tied - (s)he can only offer you a certain percentage, so you'll just never catch up with the new hires. I've seen situations where inexperienced graduates were paid more than relatively senior folk. This, of course, prompted an exodus. As others have said, you need to find a new job with better pay and you then have a choice: you can present it as a bargaining chip to your manager, kind of "I don't really want to leave but I can't accept this erosion of my salary" and see what kind of response you get, or you can take the new job of course.

Rates for projects are used to calculate the cost of running the project. If it's a customer project, the rates will be substantially inflated. In any case, these are typically based on the level of the person, not their salary, and they included the expenses associated with that person, e.g. light, heating, desk, etc.

titan18

Wildly Boaring wrote:

Your manager quite probably hasn't lied. Recruitment agencies often advertise roles they don't have. Hoping to get a good candidate or 2 and then go unsolicited to the original advertising company

Considering the role isn't up on our own companys website, the only way they'd know it existed was if they got information off the company. I also know the recruiter has worked with us before in hiring.

mollygreene

Another thing to take in to consideration OP is that thw recruiter more than likely advertised the role with a higher salary to attract more interest.

Then once they have candidates interested say something like 'depending on experience' and bring it down to closer your own salary..

ted1

ophere wrote: »

Hi,

Thanks for the replies. It's not so much that I think I should be paid more (I do but already had those discussions with my manager), it's that they're hiring someone who will most likely have less experience than me and expect me to train them when they're being paid more than me, which I think is a bit of an insult.

For the other scenario, on the project rates. They're internal project rates used for budgeting on a project. It doesn't affect my actual job (that I know of), and they wouldn't actually be meant to be seen (if someone leaves something on a public drive though I'll find it hence I've seen it) but to me, it says that others are valued more by the company internally than I am even though at the end of the day, the 2 of us might be asked to do the same work.

I can't understand the difference between mine and others that I've seen on the budget as we're all working for the same company so our overheads would be the same, and I can't imagine all the other developers are earning the exact same wage as their rates are the same as each other, just mine is a lot less as it's a different team. To me, it looks like the company doesn't value the team I'm on as much as normal software development even though we end up working on the same projects and doing the same work at times anyway.

I don't actually expect to get a raise if I say something on the external ad I saw, as I got a 3k raise 3 months ago, and I don't think my manager can do anything on the rates, but I'm wondering should I voice my frustration with it to the manager as at least then they'll be aware of it and that it's something that has annoyed me (and one of my colleagues I showed it too as well but I'd leave him out of it).

Project rates don’t mean much. I often put projects together and will often increase charge out rates and people’s bands.
These gives me room to negotiate with the client and also a way of hiding a contingency within the project.
So if I have two people who’s rate is 500, I might charge one st 750, that’ll allow me and extra half day in case I need it. It allows me to give a discount to the customer and still achieve the margin the company wants

theballz

I too work in the IT industry and this is the norm (doesn't make it right.)

In my role as senior manager I constantly have long standing staff come to me complaining that new hires are being paid more and that they deserve rise.

Fact is, this is normal. New hires get paid more for a wealth of different reasons, mainly being experience. If you want to make more money you need to move around companies and even then in a year or two the next person coming in is more than likely going to be paid more than you

beauf

The other size is managers get complacent they forget the value and experience that a long standing staff member brings to the team.
So moving off one team to another, even another departments, can make a manager re-assess if they can afford to lose you or not.
If nothing else they'll have to replace you with a new-hire, which is going to cost them more.

Of course its a game of poker, you have to be prepared to move. You have to commit and follow through.

A good time to do it, is just after someone else leaves the team or gets promoted.

theballz

beauf wrote: »

The other size is managers get complacent they forget the value and experience that a long standing staff member brings to the team.
So moving off one team to another, even another departments, can make a manager re-assess if they can afford to lose you or not.
If nothing else they'll have to replace you with a new-hire, which is going to cost them more.

Of course its a game of poker, you have to be prepared to move. You have to commit and follow through.

A good time to do it, is just after someone else leaves the team or gets promoted.

People most certainly have to be prepared to move. I think some people need to stop thinking you’re a special snowflake, but there’s thousands of others just like you knocking on the same door willing to do the same job for the same salary.

What I tell my team is what you want to not become the guy bitching about how new employees are getting ridiculous entry-level salaries? Strive to be a value-added proposition always ready to lead new tasks and take on different project.

In other words, stay hungry and you’ll never starve.

screamer

External hires are paid more as they are paid what the market dictates in order to get them to sign up with the company. If you want to be paid in line with that, you need to go to the market too- i.e. moveThis is across IT industry not just specific to your company as I've seen it umpteen times.

titan18

theballz wrote: »

I too work in the IT industry and this is the norm (doesn't make it right.)

In my role as senior manager I constantly have long standing staff come to me complaining that new hires are being paid more and that they deserve rise.

Fact is, this is normal. New hires get paid more for a wealth of different reasons, mainly being experience. If you want to make more money you need to move around companies and even then in a year or two the next person coming in is more than likely going to be paid more than you

Experience makes no sense in this particular case anyway as the hire actually only has 2 years experience working, and has never used the two main technologies we're using.

I've just decided I'm leaving, can't be dealing with that, and I know I should be paid more with what I bring to the team and the company, and have worked on several large projects over the last few years (financial system migration, upgrade of our database, and now a migration of our data model to allow us to migrate our CRM), and whilst I've got raises, not to the value that I think I should be at and can see from recruitment offers that I can get.

CalamariFritti

Being in an IT position myself for over 20 years, and I'm sure it applies to other industries as well, one thing is quite clear:

(And I say that with as much objectivity as possible; I personally have no axe to grind in that area)

It is much easier to get a substantial pay rise by changing jobs than by climbing the ladder in your current company.

There are always odd exceptions to this rule. I have seen someone being promoted twice while being on two consecutive maternity leaves with maybe 7 months in between, just because it suited office politics. Once can always get lucky.

But generally speaking companies will pay what they get away with. People don't get pay rises out of 'fairness'. You will have to negotiate and your only 'weapon' is the implied or direct 'threat' to leave. Even though this will be clouded in much more diplomatic language that's what it boils down to.

If you go to HR and tell them you saw the advertisement for the job and you want the same money, then you have to be prepared for two outcomes. You get it or something you'll be happy enough with or you don't. And if you don't then you will have to decide what to do with that. And staying is not really an option in that case, 'cos you'll be in a much weaker position from now on with regards to any future pay rises.

In this case you gambled, they called you and you blinked. They will expect you to blink again.

evolving_doors

incoming hire might have been leaving for the same reason as you! So if you're stuck afterwards there's a slight possibility of taking their old job on more money!