In tears listening to the radio

Eggs For Dinner

Deleted User wrote: »

never mind your "we" thanks

I was referring to 'we' as a nation and that is accurate

I never owned a 2nd property, borrowed for holidays, owned any shares and I have paid every bill that ever entered my house

BrokenArrows

judestynes wrote: »

Here's a better idea. Lets all stop going to work. 1 day a month until there's political reform. Proper reform not just new politicians . How long do you think the likes of Pfizer, google, facebook DHL or any of the global corporations will stick loosing a days productivity every month before they tell the dail to get their sh1t together.

How long before those private companies give you disciplinary and eventually fire you. Id say you would be fired long before there is political reform.

Franz Von Peppercorn

Eggs For Dinner wrote: »

Let's be honest about it. We (Irish citizens) were like the drunken uncle at a wedding. Now the hangover has set in, we blame the bride and groom for giving us too much free drink

The banks failed worldwide, starting in the US, and failed long before mortgage defaults hit them. They stopped interbank loans sometime in 2008.

The bank failures were cause of, not caused by mortgage arrears.

In your analogy the bride and groom charged guests for the drink, then demanded a bailout for over spending on their wedding from the guests. Then they repossessed their guests’ cars.

judestynes

BrokenArrows wrote: »

How long before those private companies give you disciplinary and eventually fire you. Id say you would be fired long before there is political reform.

What? fire the entire workforce? it only works if EVERYONE does it. there in lies the problem, everyone won't. So what ever our elected reprehensibles do to us.. we fully deserve it for being spineless.

wexandproud

judestynes wrote: »

What? fire the entire workforce? it only works if EVERYONE does it. there in lies the problem, everyone won't. So what ever our elected reprehensibles do to us.. we fully deserve it for being spineless.

the one's who wont do it are acting like mature adults and are probably the one's who pay there bills and debts and have a far less chance of loosing their home

judestynes

wexandproud wrote: »

the one's who wont do it are acting like mature adults and are probably the one's who pay there bills and debts and have a far less chance of loosing their home

The ones who would are forward thinkers who want the children and grand children to inherit a fairer stronger and balanced society not mindless sheep who just do as their told. Irish people have a very limted view of what civil disobedience is, they think it's just marches and sit in and other forms of protest. it's not doing what the establishment expects. We're expected to go to work and contribute to our society which is a fair expectation but ther is an expectation on them too to provide sensible and fair and wise governance and we're seeing very little of that

Eggs For Dinner

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

.

In your analogy the bride and groom charged guests for the drink, then demanded a bailout for over spending on their wedding from the guests. Then they repossessed their guests’ cars.

If the guests said they would pay for the drink, then told everyone to fluck off when they were given the bill and that I'd pay it for them, then they should have their car repossessed

Graces7

I've Motor Neuron Disease, AMA wrote: »

I have my own share of financial issues due to illness and have tried all sorts of offers to my bank even up to the point of voluntary surrender but with no success.

I suppose the point i am trying to make is some genuinely can't pay.

and assessing that a problem is the person;s own fault ( if anyone has the need to make such a judgement?) does not or should not mean not having compassion for someone in huge difficulties, which is what I think the OP ( well done OP) is expressing very well.

Franz Von Peppercorn

Eggs For Dinner wrote: »

If the guests said they would pay for the drink, then told everyone to fluck off when they were given the bill and that I'd pay it for them, then they should have their car repossessed

The guests did mostly pay for the drinks. The hosts demanded extra money out of everybody including non drinkers, people who went to bed early, and people who paid for their drinks in full. A few drinkers who over drank had their cars taken, given to the hosts or their mates.

It was a crap wedding.

judestynes

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

The guests did mostly pay for the drinks. The hosts demaned extra money out of everybody including non drinkers, people who went to bed early, and people who paid for their drinkers in full. A few drinkers who over drank had their cars taken, given to the hosts or their mates.

It was a crap wedding.

The divorce is gonna be a messy one dude.

sbsquarepants

Deusexmachina wrote: »

Sean O Rourke had a report today from the repossession court in Tralee. I found it really upsetting. There was a very quietly spoken gentle woman in tears about how the bank is threatening her to take her home from her. She has two children and, as a result of a marriage separation, is struggling to cope. The banks don’t care and are scaring her to death. .

Who do you think should pay for her house?

Deusexmachina wrote: »

Then there was a man who was trying to deal with a vulture fund who bought out his loan from Irish Permanent and who is also getting threatened and terrified by these mafioso bully boys..

Who do you think should pay for his house?

Deusexmachina wrote: »

Where are our politicians now? When are we going to stop being so damned passive in the country. We need to defend our citizens from this attack.
I will not forget that poor woman and that poor man I heard this morning. I will not forget at the next election.

Who will you vote for?

Deusexmachina wrote: »

The goal posts have been moved by these nasty vulture funds. Buying up loans and then squeezing the life out of people - hiking up interest rates and threatening eviction.
Did you learn your history in school?

Did you learn economics - one mans debt is another mans asset.

Lets say someone borrowed a big pile of money from you, but then split up with their husband and told you that you'd just have to forego collecting because things had changed, you'd be delighted with that would you?

OSI wrote: »

Was it not shown recently that banks are 5 times more likely to reposses than these so called "vulture fund" boogeyman?

Heard a stat on the radio the other day that "vulture funds" were nearly 4 times more likely to cut you a discounted deal than your bank, should they own your distressed mortgage.

But vulture fund sounds mean and makes for good headlines and soundbites.

These funds exist to make money - not to teach wayward mortgage holders a lesson. Generally they will sell the mortgage back at a premium - they tend to not care to who but then why should they? They bought an asset to sell at a premium - just like Spar, or Tesco ......or dare I say it, even your beloved Rachel Allen OP.

She buys stuff in bulk on the cheap and sells it on with a mark up to make money and she's a dreamy weamy yummy mummy from heaven:D

judestynes

judestynes wrote: »

The ones who would are forward thinkers who want the children and grand children to inherit a fairer stronger and balanced society not mindless sheep who just do as their told. Irish people have a very limted view of what civil disobedience is, they think it's just marches and sit in and other forms of protest. it's not doing what the establishment expects. We're expected to go to work and contribute to our society which is a fair expectation but ther is an expectation on them too to provide sensible and fair and wise governance and we're seeing very little of that

the problem with using the word "sheep" is that people stop reading because it is a word only used by idiots with zero critical analysis or people skills ime

judestynes

Deleted User wrote: »

the problem with using the word "sheep" is that people stop reading because it is a word only used by idiots with zero critical analysis or people skills ime

The problem with the word "idiot" is that it's used by people who think they're very clever because they thought of everything inside the box.

Franz Von Peppercorn

[Deleted User] wrote: »

the problem with using the word "sheep" is that people stop reading because it is a word only used by idiots with zero critical analysis or people skills ime

It’s literally in your name.

VinLieger

judestynes wrote: »

The problem with the word "idiot" is that it's used by people who think they're very clever because they thought of everything inside the box.

Well at least they were right about one thing, you obviously dont have any people skills

Eggs For Dinner

Eggs For Dinner wrote: »

Let's be honest about it. We (Irish citizens) were like the drunken uncle at a wedding. Now the hangover has set in, we blame the bride and groom for giving us too much free drink

People were not made aware of the consequences of borrowing beyond their means

Lenders were receiving bonuses for selling as much money as they could.

A young person who didn't have a large house and a couple of cars during the boom were made feel like they were a failure, and that they were being left behind.

Franz Von Peppercorn

sbsquarepants wrote: »

Did you learn economics - one mans debt is another mans asset.

Teach that economics course to bankers, where every bank’s debt and asset is a potential liability to the taxpayer in the former case, and an asset to the banks in the latter.

The Rape of Lucretia

judestynes wrote: »

it's not doing what the establishment expects. We're expected to go to work and contribute to our society which is a fair expectation but ther is an expectation on them too to provide sensible and fair and wise governance and we're seeing very little of that

Everyone is the establishnent though - those who think the people and the establishment are part of the problem, not the solution.
Certainly, marches etc are a waste of time and a delusional group tantrum against democracy.

Wanderer78

The Rape of Lucretia wrote:

Everyone is the establishnent though - those who think the people and the establishment are part of the problem, not the solution. Certainly, marches etc are a waste of time and a delusional group tantrum against democracy.

Do we truly have democratic rule and control?

AlekSmart

pwurple wrote: »

I listened to the podcast .. and the people who did show up sounded like they were making efforts.

Only 8 out of the 71 cases did people show up. That's over 80% of them sticking heads in the sand , and the sentiment in this thread seem somewhat justified in that case.

However, those that did show up, they sounded genuine enough, and indeed the court made orders against the banks in some cases. Especially the guy who was made fill up the same enormous set of forms six times and the bank kept claiming to "lose" them while raising the interest rate repeatedly. Court ordered against the bank there. And the couple who paid off 110k of their 125k mortgage, and wanted to pay off the rest in a lump sum but the bank would not cooperate. And the woman who was paying away at 700 a month, but the bank would not engage with her to change the repayments to that amount because the ex husband's name was on the mortgage also. (He didn't show up).

It sounds like the courts are reasonable enough at least.

As for the government and voting time... I think people expect far too much from a sitting government. They can make fairly tiny tweaks, exceptionally slowly, to existing legislation, and that's about it. The law is the law.

There is at least one shining beacon of reason in this entire shambles.

Step forward Edmund Honahan,the Master of the High Court.

His Court hearings are definitely worth following,if only for his continuous imposition of a sense of decency upon the Giants of the Banking World (is that you KBC ?).

http://www.thejournal.ie/high-court-master-3-4056420-Jun2018/

Over the course of the morning, he criticised the banks for aggressively pursuing family homes, butted heads with the barristers defending them and highlighted failings at Circuit Court level where the possession orders had been granted – in many cases without any detailed consideration of the loan terms or the circumstances of the debtors.

Turning to the bank’s barrister, the High Court Master asked:

“What is your pressing social need to have this woman’s house? How many other houses do you have that are empty? Are you operating as a charity?”

The Master said even the government accepts now that evictions cannot take place “just because you are owed a few bob”.

...and my particular favorite pithy one-liner......

Later, he raised his voice as he told barristers at the front of his court to make room for a lay litigant, Mary Fahy, to sit among them so she should be on a more equal footing.

“She’s entitled to sit in the front row,” he told them.

Well done Judge Honahan,who although often legally bound to deliver negative judgements to people,never allows the Human aspect to airbrushed out.

Eggs For Dinner

Deleted User wrote: »

People were not made aware of the consequences of borrowing beyond their means


.

I'm speechless

Green&Red

Those court transcripts just show that it’s very hard to have your house taken off you in the country, it’s literally a last resort. If you engage with the banks they will do everything possible to try and help you keep your home.

The sense of entitlement beggars belief, not everyone is entitled to own a home anymore in Ireland and people have to get used to that fact

The Rape of Lucretia

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Do we truly have democratic rule and control?

Yes. But the results of democracy are only as good as the people forming that democracy. And the Irish are poor at running their affairs. But rather than acknowledge that failing of self, many, prefer to construct a model of us, the citizen voter, and them, an 'others' that dont provide them with a perfect society. Not realising, that the result they see is just a reflection of how good they the people are themselves.
In the past it might have been the English, or the nobles. Elsewhere, the jews, or b***ks. Today, the bankers, the government, the establishment. Anybody rather than acknowledge their own failings for their woes.
Being evicted? Evil, ruthless, heartless vulture funds. Even the name colours the pejorative bias.

VinLieger

AlekSmart wrote: »

Well done Judge Honahan,who although often legally bound to deliver negative judgements to people,never allows the Human aspect to airbrushed out.

Hes not a judge, honohan has very little power apart from issuing judgements in uncontested cases.

zell12

OP, are you crying for these people too?
Couple to lose home after mortgage not paid for five years
Couple lose upmarket home after not paying mortgage for four years
Repossession order after man ran up mortgage arrears of almost €139,000
Couple told to demolish house built without permission - yet it is still standing!
Twink fails to pay €210 monthly mortgage

I'm sure there are thousands (possibly ten's of thousands) strategic defaulters in Ireland

Deusexmachina

Deusexmachina wrote: »

There are a lot of cases of reasonable people doing their best to keep on track too.

If the house is being repossessed then they aren't trying to keep on track. The banks are very willing to work with people on restructuring debt, reducing repayments etc etc. They are begging people to engage with them if they are facing issues.

So if you have got to the stage of being repossessed then you are obvioulsy not engaging or making an attempt to pay something etc.

Franz Von Peppercorn

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

It’s literally in your name.

absolutely no comeback to that!

The Rape of Lucretia

Ellie Short Safflower wrote: »

So if you have got to the stage of being repossessed then you are obvioulsy not engaging or making an attempt to pay something etc.

And way way beyond.
There seems to be an attitude in Ireland that once you are in a house you should not leave it, whatever % you truly own of it, or whether you can pay back the loan you took out, signing that the lender did indeed have first charge over it.

Having to move, or being forced to do so by a lender, being akin to huddling your family under a blanket in a ditch by the road.

And people crying listening to you tale.

Berserker

judestynes wrote: »

The ones who would are forward thinkers who want the children and grand children to inherit a fairer stronger and balanced society.

Says who, exactly? What needs to be done to make the country, fairer, stronger and balanced, in your opinion? Would giving someone the right to a home be an example of this? Do you think that is a realistic goal? Note that I am putting emphasis on the word 'right'.

stratowide

Deleted User wrote: »

People were not made aware of the consequences of borrowing beyond their means.

Would it not be prudent to make oneself aware of such consequences before borrowing..?

One's own self interest would suggest yes.

Compound interest isn't very hard to understand.I was 11 when our class got the lesson.

Berserker

Deleted User wrote: »

People were not made aware of the consequences of borrowing beyond their means

What did they think was going to happen? Did they think Michael Collins was going to rise from his grave, produce a big bag of money and pay off their debts?

VinLieger

Deleted User wrote: »

A young person who didn't have a large house and a couple of cars during the boom were made feel like they were a failure, and that they were being left behind.

So we are okay with grown adults behaving like a schoolchild who doesnt have the cool new toy? Thats an acceptable excuse for borrowing money beyond your means?

The Rape of Lucretia

VinLieger wrote: »

So we are okay with grown adults behaving like a schoolchild who doesnt have the cool new toy? Thats an acceptable excuse for borrowing money beyond your means?

Its not an excuse, but is nevertheless part of the reason. Many Irish had not been in the position before, or had any real culture or concept of financial responsibility. And so took the cheap loans, rather than saving, during the years of plenty. And having the new toy in the drive was a pressure on an unsophisticated society.
And it was equally poorly equiped, both personally and as a state, to deal with the consequences when it turned sour.
As this case demonstrates, and some peoples attitude to it, still.

Berserker

Deleted User wrote: »

A young person who didn't have a large house and a couple of cars during the boom were made feel like they were a failure, and that they were being left behind.

Everyone was subject to that, not just young people. You need to have the character to ignore that nonsense. That's still the case. Look at the amount of 181/182 SUVs around Dublin.

sbsquarepants

Berserker wrote: »

What did they think was going to happen? Did they think Michael Collins was going to rise from his grave, produce a big bag of money and pay off their debts?

It's about as realistic a scenario as some of our more populist politicians like to espouse:D

seamus

Snotty wrote: »

I've heard all these repossession sob stories already, poor little old ladies and blue rinse grannies. Complete bollox, to end up with a repossession order in this country you've obviously buried your head in the sand for so long and now finally facing the results of your lack of engagement or you've borrowed completely over your means and have been riding the free rent train since.
I have zero sympathy of any of the 100+ plus stories where the truth has been layout in court, not the fluffy story that comes from certain media types.

+1

There's always more to the story. Nobody in modern Ireland has ever had their home taken from them by a bank and been thrown onto the streets with no warning, no chance to save it, and nowhere to go. Ever.

It's always spun into the "poor unfortunate little man versus the big greedy landowner" story that the Irish sheep just love to lap up unquestioningly because it appeals to their cultural identity.

It's the most Irish thing in the world to not only have insatiable desires for a house, but to expect or have sympathy when mortgages aren't being paid.

The only difference between an evicted renter and someone defaulting on their mortgage is one made a huge commitment and a bad choice. If you believe that signing a mortgage entitles you to a house with no payments, you're an arsehole.

Berserker

sbsquarepants wrote: »

It's about as realistic a scenario as some of our more populist politicians like to espouse:D

Was just thinking that as I typed it. Sounds like a SF economic policy!

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

And it was equally poorly equiped, both personally and as a state, to deal with the consequences when it turned sour.

The big question is whether the state and the general population are better equipped to deal with the next recession.

VinLieger

Part of the reason we have a continuing housing crisis is because of the stagnation of movement in the market, repossessions are a natural occurrence but have been halted from occurring when they should in such a large number of cases that it is ring fencing a huge amount of housing from being available that otherwise could be purchased by people who can afford the mortgage. They are instead now taking up houses for rent and to buy lower down on the bracket as they have no other option which people on lower incomes would usually be moving into, all this then increases the prices along with the other problems so the lower bracket houses are completely unavailable for the people who would normally be living in them.

A lack of reposessions is only increasing house prices and making the situation worse in the long term

Green&Red

The IFA are protesting about those two brothers in Meath who bought a 20acre farm for €800k in 2007 and it was being repossessed. For reference agricultural land in Meath is maybe €15k/acre. It was pure greed From the two lads but it’s being spun that they’re being dwindled out of a living

Franz Von Peppercorn

Green&Red wrote: »

The IFA are protesting about those two brothers in Meath who bought a 20acre farm for €800k in 2007 and it was being repossessed. For reference agricultural land in Meath is maybe €15k/acre. It was pure greed From the two lads but it’s being spun that they’re being dwindled out of a living

Greed on the part of the buyers, or the sellers?

Green&Red

Greed on the side of the two brothers who saw dollar signs and way over borrowed, all because I presume they could get the land zoned and sell it at a profit

end of the road

zell12 wrote: »

And are you not in tears when a landlord threatens to take a home from a man or woman?
Are you not in tears about all those people in emergency accommodation or in shop doorways?

perhapse he is, given human beings are capible of caring about multiple issues. however he set up this thread to discuss 1 aspect of housing.

seamus

Green&Red wrote: »

The IFA are protesting about those two brothers in Meath who bought a 20acre farm for €800k in 2007 and it was being repossessed. For reference agricultural land in Meath is maybe €15k/acre. It was pure greed From the two lads but it’s being spun that they’re being dwindled out of a living

I bet the IFA aren't crying at this guy to compensate the poor unfortunate bank that he "swindled" out of €1.4m?

If you play financial games, there will be winners and losers. There's no doubt that in the past we have made the mistake of protecting the losers, but that has to stop.

stratowide

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

Greed on the part of the buyers, or the sellers?

To paraphrase Clay Davis from the wire.

"I'll take any fool's money if he's giving it away."

Sycamore Tree

200 billion national debt but the government will rarely mention that.

I believe 64 billion is due to bailing out the banks/bondholders. Private banking debt.

As we know Greece and Ireland have paid the heaviest price. For the EU as a whole, the bank bailouts added 4% of GDP to debt. For Ireland the equivalent figure was 21% of GDP (or 31% of GNI*).

Berserker

zell12 wrote: »

And are you not in tears when a landlord threatens to take a home from a man or woman?

Do landlords do that? They might decided to leave the sector and sell up, for any number of reasons but that's their right, surely?

10000maniacs

Yer Da sells Avon wrote: »

I see those four words far more frequently on After Hours than anywhere else.

Maybe because people need to shoulder the responsibility and consequences of going the mortgage route.
Whenever there is a crisis in Ireland, why is it that the already squeezed middle always have to come up with the readies to bail the country out? We are sick of it.
And then when we say take responsibility we are branded as nasty, or if we suggest Ireland is full, we can't afford any more migrants who can't/won't take care of themselves when they get here, we are branded as racist when the word you should be looking for is pragmatist.

Cina

10000maniacs wrote: »

if we suggest Ireland is full, we can't afford any more migrants who can't/won't take care of themselves when they get here, we are branded as racist when the word you should be looking for is pragmatist.

Speak for yourself. Nothing wrong with the migrants who come into our country. They pay a hell of a lot more tax than a lot of our own. It's the entitled Irish scroungers like Margaret Cash that are the problem.

Plopsu

Renegade Mechanic wrote: »

I'll be as big a feckin child as I want, matey!
Bank wants the house, bank gets the house and nothing more, THAT would stop the over-inflated values people were taking on loans for far more effectively than simply saying "hurr, don't get a loan then, go be homeless somewhere else".

That's the first thing you've said here, I agree with.