Travellers want a state apology

RobertKK

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/health-family/when-will-there-be-an-official-apology-to-the-traveller-community-1.3634335?mode=amp

Currently, there is a global predilection for apologies to indigenous people and minority ethnic groups. Apartheid in South Africa “officially” ended in 1994. The Truth and Reconciliation Commission quickly followed in 1995. The hearings started in 1999. Apologies were offered by the Canadian and Australian governments in 2008 to the indigenous people of their countries. An apology was also offered in 2017 by the Crown to the Parihaka people of New Zealand.

When will there be an official apology to the Traveller community for what was done to us?

I read this Irish Times article and it is very one sided from a Traveller.
Ok she speaks of hurt and discrimination suffered by Travellers, but not once deals with other real stuff like the criminality within the Traveller community.
I never got an apology from the Travellers who tried to steal from me by being threatening and demanding money and when I said I would call the Guards if they didn’t leave me alone, I got told I should kill myself by hanging myself off a bridge.
I had tried to be the good person to them originally and gave them work, in the article they talk about 82% unemployment. When there is a lack of trust it does lead to consequences.
The settled community is not looking for Travellers to go uneducated, to get an inferior health service and there is a housing crisis so it is not like any section of society is getting preferential treatment.

An apology to the Traveller community will do nothing for society, people may have a negative view of Travellers but for a lot of people it is not a view made for the sake of it but from different personal experiences.
If Travellers don’t want to address these problems then an apology by the state won’t change anything. If Travellers want people to have a better view of them they need to work to start the change in their own community. The ‘I am a victim, give me an apology’ will not wash with most of the public.
The article doesn’t address the self made problems the Traveller community in Ireland created for themselves.
I have heard old people talk positively of what Travellers did in past times when they travelled around and did certain jobs for farmers.
Now it is very different. There is a real fear, I know myself if Travellers were to arrive on my farm I would be anxious and it wouldn’t be from just the one experience but from multiple experiences.
I don’t want to feel like this but one can’t be happy clappy and ignore realities and be yeah ‘they deserve a state apology’, when they do nothing to change their own perception but blame others for their predicament.

One can read the Traveller argument in the article for the pro-apology argument.

B-D-P--

Aweful sorry to hear Travellers make up 0.6 per cent of the population yet account for 10 per cent of the male prisoner population and 22 per cent of the female prison population.

wexie

RobertKK wrote: »

Now it is very different. There is a real fear, I know myself if Travellers were to arrive on my farm I would be anxious and it wouldn’t be from just the one experience but from multiple experiences.

//sarcasm//
But they're coming to apologise according to Martin Collins

“There cannot be healing and true reconciliation until the hurt is recognised and apologised for,”

Or is that not what he meant?


//sarcasm//

salmocab

Those apologies were all to indigenous people who suffered from Whitey turning up and killing them off whilst nicking their land.
Not even close to relevant

RobertKK

wexie wrote: »

But they're coming to apologise according to Martin Collins



Or is that not what he meant?

No, she is talking about the hurt felt by Travellers.

Doctor Jimbob

This should go well.

brevity

FatherJacksayingsorry.gif

Cantona's Collars

salmocab wrote: »

Those apologies were all to indigenous people who suffered from Whitey turning up and killing them off whilst nicking their land.
Not even close to relevant

Sure don't travellers kinda do the same (not the killing bit) when they set up unofficial halting sites on other people's land?

VinLieger

An apology for what? Locking our houses and possessions away and making it harder to steal them?

BrokenArrows

A state apology? For what exactly?

What has the state done to them which would warrant an apology?

We are sorry that we have allowed to you receive government funds in return for nothing.

We are sorry we have provided you with places to live specifically designed for your way of life (haulting sites).

We are sorry it took us too long to repair said sites after you totally wrecked them.

We are sorry for removing you from private property that you occupied without permission after you trashed the place.

We are sorry for putting you in jail after you were convicted of hundreds of offenses.

We are sorry that your culture clashes with what is expected from the rest of the population.

We are sorry for sending large police presences to your funerals due to the long list of historical violence at such events.

Traveler grievances dont even relate to the grievances of the south africans, canadians, native indians etc. Mass murder and explosion from owned land vs minor discrimination due to a long history of proven issues.

No sign of the lad with that clock.

wexie

RobertKK wrote: »

No, she is talking about the hurt felt by Travellers.

yeah I kinda got that, edited post for clarification.

Hector Bellend

I want an apology for having to go to work this morning.

Perhaps employees will get their own ethnic group and demand an apology.

And another thing, the Irish school system doesnt teach history very well. Why on earth you'd introduce traveller history ahead of more important or relevant history is a mystery to me.

I'm overweight. If I sought an apology for being called a fat bastard every day would I get it. Absolutely not and rightly so. I'd be more offended if I wasnt told to grow a pair.

The Pheasant2

For one of the biggest groups of bullies I've had the misfortune to encounter, Travellers sure do love playing the victim.

sbsquarepants

B-D-P-- wrote: »

Aweful sorry to hear Travellers make up 0.6 per cent of the population yet account for 10 per cent of the male prisoner population and 22 per cent of the female prison population.

Well I suppose they could always stop all the thieving or something?

Sorry, I'm talking shíte!

The state should apologise and provide them with a thievery grant, culture boss, or something like that! People should stop locking their doors too - we need to help these poor people preserve their precious culture. It's a priceless gem we need to protect.

ancapailldorcha

Admittedly, it has been a long time since I was resident in Ireland but I recall there being a lot of state support for travellers. Their experience is nothing like that of the native people's of pre-colonial Australia and New Zealand, never mind apartheid. Those comparisons are frankly disgusting and I would have expected better from the Irish Times.

Floppybits

sbsquarepants wrote: »

B-D-P-- wrote: »

Aweful sorry to hear Travellers make up 0.6 per cent of the population yet account for 10 per cent of the male prisoner population and 22 per cent of the female prison population.

Well I suppose they could always stop all the thieving or something?

Sorry, I'm talking shíte!

The state should apologise and provide them with a thievery grant, culture boss, or something like that! People should stop locking their doors too - we need to help these poor people preserve their precious culture. It's a priceless gem we need to protect.

We need to start promoting sulky racing as a tourist attraction.

Turnipman

"Many Traveller children experienced physical violence and being ridiculed by being forced to have our hair checked for nits and then being showered."


So presumably, in Ms. McDonagh's opinion, the nits should have been allowed to remain where they were, free to increase and multiply at will, and to sleep in Garda stations whenever they felt the urge?

Hector Bellend

Gimme A Pound

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Admittedly, it has been a long time since I was resident in Ireland but I recall there being a lot of state support for travellers. Their experience is nothing like that of the native people's of pre-colonial Australia and New Zealand, never mind apartheid. Those comparisons are frankly disgusting and I would have expected better from the Irish Times.

I wouldn't. It has turned into a bullsh1t rag.

jacksie66

This post has been deleted.

seamus

salmocab wrote: »

Those apologies were all to indigenous people who suffered from Whitey turning up and killing them off whilst nicking their land.
Not even close to relevant

Actually it is a little bit relevant.

It may not have been quite as severe as apartheid or what happened in Australia, but during the 50s and 60s there was an attempted "gentrification" of Travellers into Irish society.

Part of which involved the forced removal of children from their parents and suppression of traveller culture by forcing them into state housing.

There was also a systemic bias against travellers within state bodies.

Not exactly genocide, but something that should really be acknowledged by the modern state as a mistake. It certainly contributed to the creation of the mess we have today by distorting and damaging the flow of knowledge from one generation of travellers to the next.

However, this is tilting at windmills, IMHO. A state apology for a relatively short-lived and minor wrong fixes nothing. It won't help the integration of travellers into mainstream society, or even encourage it. If anything, it may embolden the resistance to it.

PlaneSpeeking

Can we have a third option ? "In my f**king arse they do"

RobertKK

The author of that article is on the National Women’s Council of Ireland.

https://twitter.com/nwci/status/1044502872107491328?s=21

ancapailldorcha

Would she not be better off trying to stand up for traveller women than trying to win some sort of meaningless apology from the state?

The Pheasant2

jacksie66 wrote: »

Travellers native people? What does that make the rest of us? Were travelers around thousands of years ago before anyone else landed in Ireland. Comparing them to the New Zealand Maori or the Australian Aborigines is utter bollox..

This is why granting them "ethnic" status by Kenny was a mistake imo; gives them notions like this.

Fr_Dougal

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Would she not be better off trying to stand up for traveller women than trying to win some sort of meaningless apology from the state?

An apology isn’t the end game here, they’re looking for free money...again...

Hitman3000

By offering apology the state would be admitting fault for some precieved injustice. Open the gates to compensation for whatever the precieved injustice is.

BrokenArrows

jacksie66 wrote: »

Travellers native people? What does that make the rest of us? Were travelers around thousands of years ago before anyone else landed in Ireland. Comparing them to the New Zealand Maori or the Australian Aborigines is utter bollox..

Well apparently a while back they were recognised as having a unique genetic history compared to the rest of the population and were recognised as an "ethnic minority".

Somewhat similar to the Roma gipsys are different genetically than to Romanians.

EDIT: The statement above about Roma Gypsies being mistaken for Romanians was totally wrong and it was my misunderstanding they their modern origin is Romania. But thats not the case at all, even though Romania does have a large population of them.

wexie

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Would she not be better off trying to stand up for traveller women than trying to win some sort of meaningless apology from the state?

I guess the ongoing abuse isn't as harmful as whatever historic abuse.

My guess is that standing up for traveler women would also mean speaking out against traveler men and traveler culture in general and acknowledging that perhaps all isn't kosher there.

And of course that couldn't possibly be done publicly

aaakev

I think the state needs an apology from travellers

Nekarsulm

jacksie66 wrote: »

Travellers native people? What does that make the rest of us? Were travelers around thousands of years ago before anyone else landed in Ireland. Comparing them to the New Zealand Maori or the Australian Aborigines is utter bollox..

Can anyone remember the name of the RTE documentary, made with a young Traveller lad ( boxer, European level) who set out to prove via DNA technology their ethnic difference from the general population?
After great fanfare, it turned out he couldnt prove any DNA difference, bar what you get from continual intermarraige within a closed group.
Program sank without trace.

Iwouldinmesack

Well if they get one, theres no reason why the Deaf community shouldnt get an apology as we were and continue to be treated badly by the State. They even acknowleged we suffered and continue to suffer from 'extreme marginalisation' in 2016 yet have done sfa to rectify this even though they recognised our language as an official state language in 2017.

What about an apology for normalisation, oralism (linguistic supression regarding the banning of using Irish Sign Language), segretation, oppression, the neglect and the physical and sexual abuse of Deaf people in Ireland? Noone really knows that this happened and its all swept under the carpet.

Borderfox

a written apology?

TheValeyard

If they get money out of this, we should all identify as travellers.

Hitman3000

Murray TheDemonic TalkingSkull wrote:

If they get money out of this, we should all identify as travellers.

Do you travel to work?

ancapailldorcha

wexie wrote: »

I guess the ongoing abuse isn't as harmful as whatever historic abuse.

My guess is that standing up for traveler women would also mean speaking out against traveler men and traveler culture in general and acknowledging that perhaps all isn't kosher there.

And of course that couldn't possibly be done publicly

I suspect that but in the meantime a member of the Women's Council of Ireland is cheerfully ignoring a suppression of the rights of traveller women and girls in an oppressive patriarchal culture right on her own doorstep. It begs the question of what is the point of the council if it is happy to ignore such abuses.

BrokenArrows

wexie wrote: »

I guess the ongoing abuse isn't as harmful as whatever historic abuse.

My guess is that standing up for traveler women would also mean speaking out against traveler men and traveler culture in general and acknowledging that perhaps all isn't kosher there.

And of course that couldn't possibly be done publicly

You are totally correct. They never look internally to solve problems. Its always external.

1. Education - They need to look internally to make sure all children are educated fully at the very least to leaving cert level. They receive a huge amount of financial help and this should be a minimum. However currently dropping out is accepted if not encouraged.

2. Crime - We always hear that "we're not all bad", but crime is accepted in their culture. Drug dealing, theft etc. They all live in close proximity to each other and know exactly whats going on. If they accept crime within their community then they are almost as guilty as those committing it. If i knew my neighbor was a criminal then i would report them. That wont happen in their community.

3. Violence - They use violence in all aspects of their lives. Domestically, criminally and as a way to solve community disputes. They need to sort this out if they ever want to be accepted and not feared.

Gravelly

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

what is the point of the council

piplip87

Why is it the left and the liberals stand up for those who agree with the right ?

Travellers are by definition deeply religious so abortion, gay marriage, women's rights to work and education are all big no no's to them.

Arranged marriage still exists, why instead of looking for apologies that are not needed they tackle the inequalities in their own society first.

Boom_Bap

Please accept this state apology.

sbsquarepants

Turnipman wrote: »

"
So presumably, in Ms. McDonagh's opinion, the nits should have been allowed to remain where they were, free to increase and multiply at will, and to sleep in Garda stations whenever they felt the urge?

Nits need forever homes too you know.

You're a bleeding nitist, that's what you are:mad:

PlaneSpeeking

sbsquarepants wrote: »

Nits need forever homes too you know.

You're a bleeding nitist, that's what you are:mad:

#NitLivesMatter

Agricola

Was in a Toyota dealership last week getting an airbag recall done on my mother's 10 year old Yaris.

A young traveller woman walks in, head to toe in ripped denim, and heads over to the brochures. She was a dead ringer for Vicky Pollard from Little Britain. The salesman leaps out from behind his desk like the Pope had just walked in to peruse the latest models. He wasn't half as interested in me 5 minutes beforehand!
She asks him had he got the new model Land Cruiser to view, so he grabs a set of keys and escorts her outside to the forecourt! Another happy customer in the making!

VonZan

Travellers; always the victims, never the cause. My heart bleeds for them.....

B-D-P--

We are nearing 100 votes to no, and 0 votes to yes.

Yet still the gov will buckle..

When it comes to homeless they dont care because unless you carry a vote you are nothing to them...
When it comes to these parasites, they actually do something....

I dont get it, why dont they ignore them as the do the rest of irelands problems?


For the record and before the snowflakes, Im not saying ignoring the homeless is a good thing. I'm saying thats what they are doing

VinLieger

Agricola wrote: »

Was in a Toyota dealership last week getting an airbag recall done on my mother's 10 year old Yaris.

A young traveller woman walks in, head to toe in ripped denim, and heads over to the brochures. She was a dead ringer for Vicky Pollard from Little Britain. The salesman leaps out from behind his desk like the Pope had just walked in to peruse the latest models. He wasn't half as interested in me 5 minutes beforehand!
She asks him had he got the new model Land Cruiser to view, so he grabs a set of keys and escorts her outside to the forecourt! Another happy customer in the making!

He knows a cash sale when he sees it

Kristopherus

VonZan wrote: »

Travellers; always the victims, never the cause. My heart bleeds for them.....

As the book title says , they are a"blot on the landscape":D

Grayson

Iwouldinmesack wrote: »

Well if they get one, theres no reason why the Deaf community shouldnt get an apology as we were and continue to be treated badly by the State. They even acknowleged we suffered and continue to suffer from 'extreme marginalisation' in 2016 yet have done sfa to rectify this even though they recognised our language as an official state language in 2017.

What about an apology for normalisation, oralism (the banning of Irish Sign Language), segretation, the neglect and the physical and sexual abuse of Deaf people in Ireland? Swept under the carpet as usual.

That's a good point. I hadn't heard about most of that and I'd agree.

If there was discrimination against travellers by the state they should get an apology. The state needs to treat every individual with the exact same level of respect. If there was a state wide policy of treating a traveller differently because they were a traveller that's wrong.

Now I know someone will reply and point out the criminality within the traveller community and they're right to point that out. My point is that when they break the law they should be treated like any other citizen who breaks the law. No more and no less. If the state treated them differently then that's wrong and they should get an apology.

(btw, notice the IF that I put in. I honestly don't know enough about policies towards travellers to state that they do or don't deserve an apology. I'd like to see a proper study that shows this stuff. That's why I said "if")

Gimme A Pound

piplip87 wrote: »

Why is it the left and the liberals stand up for those who agree with the right ?

Travellers are by definition deeply religious so abortion, gay marriage, women's rights to work and education are all big no no's to them.

Arranged marriage still exists, why instead of looking for apologies that are not needed they tackle the inequalities in their own society first.

Oh you know, it's not really their fault - it's the patriarchy causing them to behave in this way, the oppressed being the oppressors etc.

Renegade Mechanic

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I suspect that but in the meantime a member of the Women's Council of Ireland is cheerfully ignoring a suppression of the rights of traveller women and girls in an oppressive patriarchal culture right on her own doorstep. It begs the question of what is the point of the council if it is happy to ignore such abuses.

They're paid to "help victims". If travellers aren't victims, they don't get paid. It's not actually about improving their standing.