Travellers want a state apology

BalcombeSt4

On July 3rd, 2018, a cross-party Oireachtas group debated issues relating to the historical racial abuse of Travellers.

Not all historical. Just have to click on to boards.ie to view the weekly racist "Traveller bashing" thread filled to the brim with fascist keyboard stormtroopers.

It's a poorly written article but since when does one Irish Times "journalist" count as the entire traveller community. I know several traveller families and not one has ever told me they want an apology from the Irish state.

Does raise some interesting points about hate speech & discrimination laws, like in some European countries Holocaust denial is illegal & other pro-Nazi banned, in Austria & Germany people have been sent to up to 5 & 6 years in prison for breaking these laws. Should there be more harsh laws against hate speech here?

BalcombeSt4

freshpopcorn wrote: »

We have seen in the last few years that Irish people can be very open and accepting.
You have to wonder tough why they aren't as accepting to member of the travelling community.
It's not that people are closed minded or unaccepting.

I think both sides need to take some resposibility for the poor relations between the settled & traveller communties. I think the more liberal minded travellers need to be more embraced & encouraged by the settled community and travellers need to be more open to new ideas & ways of living.

RobertKK

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/we-must-not-treat-migrants-the-way-we-ve-treated-travellers-higgins-1.3645173?mode=amp

President Michael D Higgins has said Ireland must not treat migrants the same way it has treated members of the Travelling community.

Mr Higgins, who is seeking re-election to the Áras, gave a keynote speech at the launch of a four-year migrant integration plan by Limerick City and County Council on Friday.

Migrants are treated well here from what I sss as they mostly integrate very well into society.

Gravelly

BalcombeSt4 wrote: »

I think both sides need to take some resposibility for the poor relations between the settled & traveller communties. I think the more liberal minded travellers need to be more embraced & encouraged by the settled community and travellers need to be more open to new ideas & ways of living.

Are they the ones that pull their sulkies with unicorns? cos I've never seen one.

freshpopcorn

BalcombeSt4 wrote: »

I think both sides need to take some resposibility for the poor relations between the settled & traveller communties. I think the more liberal minded travellers need to be more embraced & encouraged by the settled community and travellers need to be more open to new ideas & ways of living.

It's just such a complex thing.
I'm talking about rural Ireland here more so.
I have often heard older people say they used used services in the past be it shoeing horses, painting roofs,etc.
However at some point the relationship changened and now they wouldn't turn to members of the travelling community for their services.
They'd gladly embrace members of other minority groups but for some reason travellers are the ones that seem to have slipped out of favour.
We need a an honest open discussion about why things have changed so much and take it from there.

Loves_lorries

BalcombeSt4 wrote: »

Not all historical. Just have to click on to boards.ie to view the weekly racist "Traveller bashing" thread filled to the brim with fascist keyboard stormtroopers.

It's a poorly written article but since when does one Irish Times "journalist" count as the entire traveller community. I know several traveller families and not one has ever told me they want an apology from the Irish state.

Does raise some interesting points about hate speech & discrimination laws, like in some European countries Holocaust denial is illegal & other pro-Nazi banned, in Austria & Germany people have been sent to up to 5 & 6 years in prison for breaking these laws. Should there be more harsh laws against hate speech here?

People like you would like to see travellers given immunity from prosecution for certain crimes, once met a deluded social worker type who claimed paying taxes was not part of traveller culture and who was I to argue.

Melendez

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Loves_lorries

freshpopcorn wrote: »

It's just such a complex thing.
I'm talking about rural Ireland here more so.
I have often heard older people say they used used services in the past be it shoeing horses, painting roofs,etc.
However at some point the relationship changened and now they wouldn't turn to members of the travelling community for their services.
They'd gladly embrace members of other minority groups but for some reason travellers are the ones that seem to have slipped out of favour.
We need a an honest open discussion about why things have changed so much and take it from there.

Too many charlatans doing well out of not adressing the issue honestly.

Beit the legal sector getting fat from court representation etc or various virtue signalling lefty academics and quangocrats as well as media types both earning smug points from championing a pet minority project while lecturing us working stiffs for being intolerant, the whole thing is now a sewer of false narratives and phoney agendas.

corks finest

Alrigghtythen wrote: »

"Somewhat similar to the Roma gipsys are different genetically than to Romanians."




Aren't the Roma mainly from the northern Indian region, not Romania?

Correct,but in Europe since the middle ages,in iasi ( Romania)were actually kept as slaves in the early 1800 s

NIMAN

freshpopcorn wrote: »

It's just such a complex thing.
I'm talking about rural Ireland here more so.
I have often heard older people say they used used services in the past be it shoeing horses, painting roofs,etc.
However at some point the relationship changened and now they wouldn't turn to members of the travelling community for their services.
They'd gladly embrace members of other minority groups but for some reason travellers are the ones that seem to have slipped out of favour.
We need a an honest open discussion about why things have changed so much and take it from there.

I think most people know what happened.

freshpopcorn

Melendez wrote: »

"We have seen in the last few years that Irish people can be very open and accepting.
You have to wonder tough why they aren't as accepting to member of the black community.
It's not that people are closed minded or unaccepting."

One word changed. Has that statement suddenly turned racist?

I saw people in the past and they'd have being uneasy around members of the black community but after only a short few years. They'd have no issues with them. They'd gladly be friends with them, will take to them, Will hire them. This is mainly due to the fact they proved themselves.
This is because they integrated themselves into there community and showed that all stereotypes were false.
So these people would be open and accepting to change after all and all it took was a little work.

Melendez

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Atoms for Peace

The state should apologise to the general population for their part in creating a criminal underclass.

Melendez

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ibFoxer

AnneFrank wrote: »

all blacks are not lazy

Course not, super high intensity rugby ball team.

freshpopcorn

Melendez wrote: »

And this statement is supposed to show what? That you used to be anti black people as well but eventually they conformed to behaviour you thought acceptable, and now you are ok with blacks?

I never said it was me.
It just shows that their is a good chance that members of the travelling community do have a chance of being accepted totally in Ireland some day. It might take a little work from both sides.

BalcombeSt4

Gravelly wrote: »

Are they the ones that pull their sulkies with unicorns? cos I've never seen one.

Maybe if you took those swastika tinted glasses of for a second you could see the woman who wrote the article this thread is based on is a liberal. She's certainly not a conservative by the tone of the article, so there's the very first one you've seen.

Gravelly

BalcombeSt4 wrote: »

Maybe if you took those swastika tinted glasses of for a second you could see the woman who wrote the article this thread is based on is a liberal. She's certainly not a conservative by the tone of the article, so there's the very first one you've seen.

If by "liberal" you mean "wants to blame everyone else except travellers for the problems of travellers" then yes, she's a liberal.

BBFAN

freshpopcorn wrote: »

I never said it was me.
It just shows that their is a good chance that members of the travelling community do have a chance of being accepted totally in Ireland some day. It might take a little work from both sides.

You use this tactic a lot "the people in my town", "people in rural Ireland", instead of just saying what YOU actually think.

It's a good way to get away with saying a load of crap.

Paddy Cow

B-D-P-- wrote: »

Aweful sorry to hear Travellers make up 0.6 per cent of the population yet account for 10 per cent of the male prisoner population and 22 per cent of the female prison population.

Anyone who thinks Travellers make up 0.6% of the population is very naive. That figure comes from the census which relies on everyone in the country filling out the forms correctly. Do people really think travellers are going to fill out all their information on a Government form?

I would love to compare figures from Social Welfare (where 90% of Travellers are claiming some sort of benefit) vs The Census when it comes to Travellers. I'm sure there would be a discrepancy the would shock even the most liberal lefftie.

freshpopcorn

BBFAN wrote: »

You use this tactic a lot "the people in my town", "people in rural Ireland", instead of just saying what YOU actually think.

It's a good way to get away with saying a load of crap.

I'm a very open person and people feel they can share their experiences with me without me judging them or cutting them off if we don't have the same opinion on a matter. So I have heard a lot of different views and people's experiences of things.

BalcombeSt4

Atoms for Peace wrote: »

The state should apologise to the general population for their part in creating a criminal underclass.

Didn't know the Hutch & Kinahan cartels were run by travellers. Leran something new & racist on AH everyday.

BalcombeSt4

Gravelly wrote: »

If by "liberal" you mean "wants to blame everyone else except travellers for the problems of travellers" then yes, she's a liberal.

I know, I told you that.

end of the road

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

As long as they live off the taxes of working people they are open to criticism.

And there is a lot to criticize in fairness.

whether they live off the taxes of working people or not is irrelevant to whether they are open to criticism or not. if they are open to criticism then it's because of actions.

BalcombeSt4

Loves_lorries wrote: »

People like you would like to see travellers given immunity from prosecution for certain crimes, once met a deluded social worker type who claimed paying taxes was not part of traveller culture and who was I to argue.

Just false bull****.

I would like to see everyone in this country punished harder for certain crimes (i.e murder, rape, government corruption) and be dealt with more softly for other crimes (i.e drug taking, j walking).
Yes, I meet made social workers in my dreams as well.

Melendez

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BBFAN

freshpopcorn wrote: »

I'm a very open person and people feel they can share their experiences with me without me judging them or cutting them off if we don't have the same opinion on a matter. So I have heard a lot of different views and people's experiences of things.

So you wouldn't cut someone off even if they're calling people vile names and inciting hatred? Hmm, interesting.

Sheep breeder

AnneFrank wrote: »

The way I hear them spoken about, and the way I have seen them treated, I believe they are owed an apology.

Would you think that the poor elderly people that have being beaten and robbed by gangs of cowardly thugs in their own homes and now live in fear, believe that they are owed an apology.
The younger generation have done an awful lot of harm to the old generation reputation who were liked in the country side and got work selling gates, painting, selling carpet, collecting scrap.

Franz Von Peppercorn

Melendez wrote: »

And having considered all these views and experiences, you have chosen to be racist. Interesting.

Why are you so concerned with creating racial characterisations where there were none.

freshpopcorn

BBFAN wrote: »

So you wouldn't cut someone off even if they're calling people vile names and inciting hatred? Hmm, interesting.

I don't fall out with people easily. They mightn't be my best friends. In life sometimes people might call somebody a name. You can talk to the person about this and see why they do this.
Some older people would have had no time for gay people growing up mainly due to their up bringing. However over the years they changed their minds. You could have a discussion with people about why they used this language and it might change their minds and what the said language achieves.
It's the same with people from all minority backgrounds in my experience. If you can show people that the minority doesn't live up to the stereotype through your experience and people they know. You can achieve a lot.

Melendez

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Melendez

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BalcombeSt4

freshpopcorn wrote: »

It's just such a complex thing.
I'm talking about rural Ireland here more so.
I have often heard older people say they used used services in the past be it shoeing horses, painting roofs,etc.
However at some point the relationship changened and now they wouldn't turn to members of the travelling community for their services.
They'd gladly embrace members of other minority groups but for some reason travellers are the ones that seem to have slipped out of favour.
We need a an honest open discussion about why things have changed so much and take it from there.

That's a good idea & sounds like a good place to start. I think your always going to have your nutters who just wont accept certain people no matter how good a person is & law abiding they are. I mean you've still got Loyalists up North who would rather put a bullet in a Catholics head than sit down & have a cup of tea with them just because of the religion they were born into. Still got a lot of racist nutters in the American south who think Obama was a Communist-Nazi spy who was going to steal their guns.

Up until a few decades ago the Irish were discriminated against in Britain really badly, the Guildford Four & Birmingham Six being classic examples of that anti-Irish sentimente & what unregulated hatred & intolerance can do. And they were hated coming of the coffin ships & settling in America in the 19th century.

I just think it's sad that a people who have experienced so much discrimination & intolerance are ready on cue to dish out the same ignorant drivel to the easiest targets themselves.

BalcombeSt4

Melendez wrote: »

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I noticed this myself, not the "knacker" thing, but you see people can say things about travellers that they couldn't say about other groups of people on boards & not get warnings or bans.

freshpopcorn

BalcombeSt4 wrote: »

I noticed this myself, not the "knacker" thing, but you see people can say things about travellers that they couldn't say about other groups of people on boards & not get warnings or bans.

Please report these things.
The odd thing slips through the net and if this happens PM a mod and we'll see what we can do.

BalcombeSt4

Sheep breeder wrote: »

Would you think that the poor elderly people that have being beaten and robbed by gangs of cowardly thugs in their own homes and now live in fear, believe that they are owed an apology.
The younger generation have done an awful lot of harm to the old generation reputation who were liked in the country side and got work selling gates, painting, selling carpet, collecting scrap.

Without a doubt their entitled to one, have no idea what this has to do with the discussion tho, their also entitled to an apology from Simon Harris for the crap health service this state provides.

Franz Von Peppercorn

Melendez wrote: »

There are two types of racism.

Type 1 is where someone is referred to as a knacker or a niggrr for the intended purpose of causing offence.

Type 2 is when someone simply cannot understand why a knacker or niggrr will not accept the language and behaviour assigned towards them as obvious subhumans or underclass.

Conflating the use of these words is itself part of the problem. The us enslaved black people, had racial laws on the books, segregated people by race and allowed de jure discrimination in the Jim Crow era. Ireland did none of this. The invention of travellers as a race is entirely a “liberal” project in the Republic of Ireland. In fact Ireland never had racial laws and never legally or culturally saw travellers as a distinct race until “liberals” demanded it.

It’s an odd claim to tell people who don’t believe that travellers are a distinct race that they are the racists. You might as well say the use of “white trash” by white people is racist. (It might, of course, be prejudiced but it’s not racist).

Travellers are, in Marxist terms, lumpen proletariat. And the elites have a tendency to use the lumpen proletarians to keep the proletariat in line. Travellers tend to understand this and don’t tend to burgle areas where Ireland’s 1% live, although you’d think they would be the most lucrative places to burgle.

It’s a realisation that if violence is perpretrared against the elites the era of State protection ends. And of course halting sites can be anywhere but tend to be in poorer working class areas.

freshpopcorn

Melendez wrote: »

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When I was at school I always got on with the traveller guys at school. If I bump into them now we'll say Hello, How you getting on,etc
If a friend or family member recommend a traveller to me do a job I'd gladly take them on. Same if they were selling something.
However if I was going to buy an item and I feared it might be stolen I wouldn't buy it know matter if the person was from the travelling community or settled community.
Another example would be a few years ago my father gave a loan of an item worth about €60 to a traveller and it was never returned. If the same family asked again we'd say no not because they are travellers but because they've proved they are unreliable. We also wouldn't loan it to my aunt because she's also proved to be unreliable.

Melendez

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freshpopcorn

Melendez wrote: »

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To be honest with you I don't know what you expect from me. I'm trying to be as constructive as I can. I've shared other peoples experiences and my own on this issue.

Melendez

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Franz Von Peppercorn

Melendez wrote: »

And I'm not anti English before anyone brings that up. I had a friend once that used to know a few people that were friends with English people. When I say friends, we weren't that close really, but you know... Well it proves I'm not anti English.

How many traveller friends do you have, or are they rare in south Dublin?

freshpopcorn

Melendez wrote: »

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Well I don't believe I am racist but you are perfectly entitled to that opinion.
Regarding my moderating I always do it to the best of my ability.
I have dealt with posts in this thread on Friday evening and I am always doing it.

paleoperson

Travellers are lovely people, very nice, charming. Never had any bad experiences with any of them ever.

Said noone ever.

Melendez

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Franz Von Peppercorn

Melendez wrote: »

Let's say I have 1 good friend. 1 decent human being that is a member of the travelling community.

Should he be categorised as subhuman or underclass because a disproportionate percentage (not disproportionate to non travellers living in similarly unacceptable conditions I should add) of that community are criminals or rely on welfare etc? Should he have to prove himself to his superiors whenever he comes in contact with them?

But he does, because that is racism in action.

I’d say you have no travellers friend or indeed know anybody from the north side, in all statistical probability.

Melendez

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Melendez

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Melendez

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work

Melendez wrote: »

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You are a martyr to the cause, and everybody appreciates your great effort.[/quote]
Yes your efforts are appreciated as without good mods boards is dead. I think it is poor form however to level cynical remarks at mods. Just state any grievance and move on don't be a funny fool.