Is Hosuing minister Murphy at the end of the line?

Wanderer78

The Student wrote:

If these people have been given help by society in the past and it has not worked then when do we say enough is enough!

What are the most likely outcomes of this approach?

Sleepy

Klonker wrote: »

Not really disagreeing with your point but do you expect families with anti social behaviour to be just kicked out on to the street? it's never going to happen. It probably should but won't.

What we shoudl do is kick them out of their prime locations in Dublin, offer them housing in rural leitrim / laois / the midlands and if they don't want to accept it, leave them to their own devices. They'll find work pretty fast then.

Wanderer78

Sleepy wrote:

What we shoudl do is kick them out of their prime locations in Dublin, offer them housing in rural leitrim / laois / the midlands and if they don't want to accept it, leave them to their own devices. They'll find work pretty fast then.

Or will they just turn to crime?

The Specialist

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Or will they just turn to crime?

In which case they should be hit with extremely harsh sentences (up to 10 years), especially when there are multiple previous convictions.

In the case of minors, severe penalties should be applied to their parents SW payments - might give them a kick up the arse to sort out their little scumbag children.

Wanderer78

The Specialist wrote:

In which case they should be hit with extremely harsh sentences (up to 10 years), especially when there are multiple previous convictions.

Does this truly solve the underlining issues and root causes, or just move the issues elsewhere, and maybe it's a good idea we actually try prevent criminality from occurring in the first place, as all criminal acts creates victims of crime?

The Specialist

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Does this truly solve the underlining issues and root causes, or just move the issues elsewhere, and maybe it's a good idea we actually try prevent criminality from occurring in the first place, as all criminal acts creates victims of crime?

Scumbags gonna scumbag - you can try to prevent criminality by being as generous as you want with SW payments, it won't make a difference to scum who want to cause trouble. So to solve that - you hit them with severe consequences for their actions, and also those in their immediate family by proxy. Might make them think twice in future before acting the bollix.

Sleepy

Deductions from parents social welfare for failure to attend school or bonuses for successful completion of state examinations would be a good carrot / stick approach imo.

optogirl

I feel so sad reading all the comments about how the only people concerned about the housing situation in Ireland are crusty leftie whingebags who want a free house. How many of those people actually exist? Do you really think that only those people attended the protest? What about people who have worked their entire adult life and live under the stress of spiralling rent and have no hope of ever affording a house? The housing crisis is not just about those who are actually without a roof although the rise in that population is terrifying - most of whom are coming from the private rental sector. It's about the fact that it is becoming less and less possible for ANYONE to afford to live here. And you can say 'move to Leitrim' all you like but with the best will in the world, it is not always possible for people to just pick up and leave a city/town where their family, jobs, schools and myriad other factors come into play. It should not be beyond the realms of reason that we can work AND live in our own home towns and cities. I await the **lol, Optogirl wants the government to GIVE her a house in her preferred postcode** comments.

Wanderer78

The Specialist wrote:

Scumbags gonna scumbag - you can try to prevent criminality by being as generous as you want with SW payments, it won't make a difference to scum who want to cause trouble. So to solve that - you hit them with severe consequences for their actions, and also those in their immediate family by proxy. Might make them think twice in future before acting the bollix.

I'd highly recommend talking to folks that have served time, and people that have worked with them, you may start to realise commonalities in their behaviours, common issues growing up, particularly in education etc, it's also important to realise, some folks show little or no response to rehabilitative methods, one ex employee explaining to me that such people are unrehabilatative.

optogirl

Sleepy wrote: »

Deductions from parents social welfare for failure to attend school or bonuses for successful completion of state examinations would be a good carrot / stick approach imo.

so if your kids aren't clever, tough shi*?

The Specialist

optogirl wrote: »

so if your kids aren't clever, tough shi*?

You don't have to be "clever" to attend school, nor reach the end of 6th year.

optogirl

The Specialist wrote: »

You don't have to be "clever" to attend school, nor reach the end of 6th year.

completion of state examinations?

The Specialist

optogirl wrote: »

completion of state examinations?

There's a thing called foundation level in most subjects, even the thickest of the thick could make some effort at those. I'd go slightly different approach - maybe a small bonus payment upon completion of school overall.

Klonker

Sleepy wrote:

What we shoudl do is kick them out of their prime locations in Dublin, offer them housing in rural leitrim / laois / the midlands and if they don't want to accept it, leave them to their own devices. They'll find work pretty fast then.

By leaving them to own devices is that leave them homeless along with their children? Or would you take their children into foster care?

I'm not sold on the move them to the country thing, at least in Dublin the trouble makers will be closer grouped together and easier police. Would be uproar from rural politicians too and rightly so tbh.

Sleepy

optogirl - any child who isn't special needs should be able to pass their Junior and Leaving Certificates whether at Higher, Ordinary or Foundation level and attendence at school is no measure of inteliigence.

TBH, I'd probably try some form of sliding scale of financial reward: loss of welfare payments for your child's non-attendence or for repeated disruptive behaviour and bonus payments on a sliding scale for results: any parent on welfare who can raise a child to be able to achieve a 300 point plus Leaving Cert is deserving of a few quid to celebrate that imo. A parent whose child achieves only 120 less so, while a parent whose child has exceled to a 500+ points result despite their lack of financial resources would be even more so imo. Sure, there's an element of rewarding "natural talent" but that's how our society functions: top performers get top money in the professional world too, whether they're accountants or premier league footballers.

Sleepy

Klonker wrote: »

By leaving them to own devices is that leave them homeless along with their children? Or would you take their children into foster care?

I'm not sold on the move them to the country thing, at least in Dublin the trouble makers will be closer grouped together and easier police. Would be uproar from rural politicians too and rightly so tbh.

Grouping trouble makers together is part of the problem tbh. Spreading them out increases societal pressure on them to behave according to societal norms and shows their children that there are rewards to living productive lives.

Rural politicians can GTF tbh, they're at the root of half the problems in our legislature.

Klonker

optogirl wrote: »

I feel so sad reading all the comments about how the only people concerned about the housing situation in Ireland are crusty leftie whingebags who want a free house. How many of those people actually exist? Do you really think that only those people attended the protest? What about people who have worked their entire adult life and live under the stress of spiralling rent and have no hope of ever affording a house? The housing crisis is not just about those who are actually without a roof although the rise in that population is terrifying - most of whom are coming from the private rental sector. It's about the fact that it is becoming less and less possible for ANYONE to afford to live here. And you can say 'move to Leitrim' all you like but with the best will in the world, it is not always possible for people to just pick up and leave a city/town where their family, jobs, schools and myriad other factors come into play. It should not be beyond the realms of reason that we can work AND live in our own home towns and cities. I await the **lol, Optogirl wants the government to GIVE her a house in her preferred postcode** comments.

Buying a home isn't out of reach of a working couple on modest wages in the greater Dublin area, it just might not be in the area you want or in a bit smaller home than you want. A single person is always going to get it hard buy a home in a capital city but most of the complaints I hear are people trying to buy a 3 bed semi-d ffs, all you need is a 1 bed apartment. If you meet someone then you will have 2 wages and can look to move.

Its always going to be out of reach of most people to buy in the nicer areas of a major city (including for me) and that's how it should be, it makes sense. If I was the government I would focus on improving our transport infrastructure, specifically rail. If they could significantly decrease travel times (way to slow at the moment) that would bring a larger part of the country into commuter distance to Dublin taking pressure of housing in Dublin. Some sort of shuttle trams should go from outside Dublin to City Centre non-stop or minimum stops at areas of high level of large companies, with huge park and rides. Could have maybe one of these to the south and north of Dublin.

lalababa

power pants wrote: »

I spoke to him personally 2 weeks before he took up this position and I discussed a housing matter and he told me

I have no real knowledge of the housing sector, I’m minister of financial services


Utter cretin

This is it! He like most ministers are just PR people, a body to explain/lie/deflect/apologise etc. Bet he had no real knowledge of financial services either.

lalababa

optogirl wrote: »

The amount of people who truly believe that a large cohort of people are demanding a 'free house' is really saddening. If you can honestly say you don't think that there is a housing crisis, that rents are unsustainable & that market prices are out of the reach of most working people then you must be living in some delightful cloud of ignorance.

House prices and rent in cork city have risen sharply in the last few years. There is no 'plan' re housing people in this city except the usual (sporadic ATM) building of estates in the fields around the city with ****e or NO infrastructure. No highrising appartments just the same auld bollocks putting workers in their cars for an hour (all at the same time) grinding through traffic to get to their jobs to pay for 300k houses in fields.

The Student

optogirl wrote: »

I feel so sad reading all the comments about how the only people concerned about the housing situation in Ireland are crusty leftie whingebags who want a free house. How many of those people actually exist? Do you really think that only those people attended the protest? What about people who have worked their entire adult life and live under the stress of spiralling rent and have no hope of ever affording a house? The housing crisis is not just about those who are actually without a roof although the rise in that population is terrifying - most of whom are coming from the private rental sector. It's about the fact that it is becoming less and less possible for ANYONE to afford to live here. And you can say 'move to Leitrim' all you like but with the best will in the world, it is not always possible for people to just pick up and leave a city/town where their family, jobs, schools and myriad other factors come into play. It should not be beyond the realms of reason that we can work AND live in our own home towns and cities. I await the **lol, Optogirl wants the government to GIVE her a house in her preferred postcode** comments.

I think you are missing the point of the housing crisis. This is a systematic failure on society as a whole. The Govt could help people with the stroke of a pen I will give you an example.

The govt issued a consultation paper on this matter and I made my submission. I suggested the rent a room scheme was extended to landlords. This would allow the landlord receive the same net of tax rental income and would allow the tenant save for a deposit for a property of their own for the future.

We as a society need to accept that we can't be everything to everybody but nobody is willing to step up and say NO.

No elected representative is going to evict someone for non payment of rent be it council or private or non payment of mortgages. This is impacting on the genuine people who need and deserve help.

Until we as a society deal with the scammers of the systems we are going to continue having these conversations.

endacl

Saints#33 wrote: »

He 100% needs to go.

I emailed his office 2 weeks ago about a shady estate agency and was told "estate agents are not his remit".

Have you ever heard such nonsense.

I emailed about a non-shady estate agent, and was told to stop making stuff up.

Gumbo

Mod Note

This is not After Hours.
Keep the posts in line with the standard required for this forum please.

Turnipman

optogirl wrote: »

I feel so sad reading all the comments about how the only people concerned about the housing situation in Ireland are crusty leftie whingebags who want a free house. How many of those people actually exist? Do you really think that only those people attended the protest? What about people who have worked their entire adult life and live under the stress of spiralling rent and have no hope of ever affording a house? The housing crisis is not just about those who are actually without a roof although the rise in that population is terrifying - most of whom are coming from the private rental sector. It's about the fact that it is becoming less and less possible for ANYONE to afford to live here. And you can say 'move to Leitrim' all you like but with the best will in the world, it is not always possible for people to just pick up and leave a city/town where their family, jobs, schools and myriad other factors come into play. It should not be beyond the realms of reason that we can work AND live in our own home towns and cities. I await the **lol, Optogirl wants the government to GIVE her a house in her preferred postcode** comments.

And you genuinely believe that acting the maggot on street protests and blocking the traffic will cause houses magically to appear like zits on an adolescent teenager's face after a Big Mac and chips? Really?

Street protest is a bit like masturbation, being all about self gratification and a warm feeling of emotional release. But, just as masturbation doesn't make more babies, street protest doesn't make more houses.

Without sounding glib, Murphy has been lacklustre from the start. Shallow soundbites do not maketh man. This narrow vote of confidence is only a stay of execution. It's a difficult role granted, but too many shuffles for good taste.

Villa05

Turnipman wrote:

And you genuinely believe that acting the maggot on street protests and blocking the traffic will cause houses magically to appear like zits on an adolescent teenager's face after a Big Mac and chips? Really?

Do you think acting the maggot and implementing policies that increase demand, house prices, rents will solve housing affordability and supply

There have been warnings of a housing shortage going back as far as 2013 and the risks it poses to our economy

KevinCavan

Get rid of the bastard, he’s had years to sort it out. It was evident three years ago that there was a shortage of housing. If he had acted then, we could have had many developments ready by now.

KevinCavan

Turnipman wrote: »

And you genuinely believe that acting the maggot on street protests and blocking the traffic will cause houses magically to appear like zits on an adolescent teenager's face after a Big Mac and chips? Really?

Street protest is a bit like masturbation, being all about self gratification and a warm feeling of emotional release. But, just as masturbation doesn't make more babies, street protest doesn't make more houses.

The water protests led to no water charges to answer your question. The government need to know how the public are feeling. Some people on here are very smug with their “I’m alright Jack” mindset.

Wheeliebin30

KevinCavan wrote: »

Get rid of the bastard, he’s had years to sort it out. It was evident three years ago that there was a shortage of housing. If he had acted then, we could have had many developments ready by now.

3 Years?

He isn’t even in the job 2 years.

How about you read up before you rant.

Christ this country really produces some beauts.

Colonel Claptrap

KevinCavan wrote: »

Get rid of the bastard, he’s had years to sort it out. It was evident three years ago that there was a shortage of housing. If he had acted then, we could have had many developments ready by now.

He wasn't minister then!

dzwx

“My understanding is that the figures have gone up in one particular region which would give me reason to believe that actually they’ll be up overall.”

One of his last quotes about homeless rising numbers.

Well if the numbers go up or down even in one particular region they still bring overall either up or down no mather if you mister minister want it or not.
Don't let me start about those "affordable" 400k plus houses.
Time to say goodbye

KevinCavan

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

3 Years?

He isn’t even in the job 2 years.

How about you read up before you rant.

Christ this country really produces some beauts.

Well what has he done in the last two years?

KevinCavan

Colonel Claptrap wrote: »

He wasn't minister then!

What has he done in the last two years then?

Lumen

FG is the ""getting up early in the morning to do nothing" party.

Honestly, if they hadn't turned up for work the last few years, would the country look any different?

The current housing situation has been building steadily for years and yet nothing systemic had been done.

But indolence and spin aside, this outcome is not entirely accidental. Noonan explicitly wanted higher property prices and targeted them as a matter of policy.

Higher prices = more expensive housing. Duh.

Villa05

Lumen wrote:

The current housing situation has been building steadily for years and yet nothing systemic had been done.

If you think about it long enough you will find that almost all government initiatives implemented have served to increase housing cost. One can only assume this has been done to make the banks stronger. The housing crisis is the collateral damage of making the banks wealthy

Therefore the housing crisis is government policy.

Lumen

Villa05 wrote: »

If you think about it long enough you will find that almost all government initiatives implemented have served to increase housing cost. One can only assume this has been done to make the banks stronger. The housing crisis is the collateral damage of making the banks wealthy

Therefore the housing crisis is government policy.

I wouldn't choose the word "wealthy", it's a bit triggering. "Less broken" maybe. And this in itself is a worthy goal.

Except that goal has been massively overshot. There is such lag in the construction industry (caused by many factors including the planning system, which is also government policy, but also the fact that the crash has broken the back of the industry, massively reducing it's capacity*) that the government should have been planning for this situation from about 2012.

The most charitable explanation is that they didn't really believe that they had created the conditions for an economic recovery.

Nonetheless, I agree about this situation being entirely avoidable by better government policy.

* this capacity drop was also politically driven via the Troika by insane German ordoliberal economic policy which will not allow countercyclical stimulus. However, the Irish government at no stage pushed back on this publicly, and I don't believe they were doing so privately either.

Villa05

Lumen wrote:

* this capacity drop was also politically driven via the Troika by insane German ordoliberal economic policy which will not allow countercyclical stimulus. However, the Irish government at no stage pushed back on this publicly, and I don't believe they were doing so privately either.

I would not blame the troika for any of this. It was governments choice where to make the cuts.
Had the government gone to the troika and explained to them that there is another property bubble brewing because of the lack of supply. I'm sure they would have been accomodative in helping to relieve the situation

It could be done without their help had the government ìnitiated a build to rent scheme in high demand areas for workers in those areas. This would be revenue positive for the state help alleviate traffic chaos, improve environment and help to keep key public staff that are leaving.

Lumen

Villa05 wrote: »

I would not blame the troika for any of this. It was governments choice where to make the cuts.

Had the government gone to the troika and explained to them that there is another property bubble brewing because of the lack of supply. I'm sure they would have been accomodative in helping to relieve the situation

It could be done without their help had the government ìnitiated a build to rent scheme in high demand areas for workers in those areas. This would be revenue positive for the state help alleviate traffic chaos, improve environment and help to keep key public staff that are leaving.

I'm not blaming the Troika, as I wrote before the government didn't even push them for a housing-focused capital programme. Nonetheless, there's absolutely no way the EU would have stood for a multi-billion a year housbuilding programme, for two reasons:

1. The Germans don't believe in counter-cyclical stimulus.
2. Ireland was locked into an EU-mandated deficit reduction programme.

If, for instance, the govt had proposed setting up a load of housing associations with the freedom to raise debt off the governments' balance sheet, the Troika would have shut it down.

But that conversation wasn't even had, because Noonan at the time WANTED to pump property prices higher and building more housing would have counteracted that goal.

tldr: Noonan is an idiot.

PeadarCo

Lumen wrote:

1. The Germans don't believe in counter-cyclical stimulus. 2. Ireland was locked into an EU-mandated deficit reduction programme.

You have missed the biggest problem. Irish people will not vote in large numbers for parties that believe in counter cyclical policies. You cannot cut taxes when you are broke. Ireland was locked into the bailout programme because no one else would lend at reasonable rates. Money which was needed to keep essential services running. You can cut taxes if you have increased taxes in the good times. But good look getting elected on that platform as the current Dail indicates and the Dail leading into the crash also showed.

Ireland doesn't have a significant property tax. One of the best ways to deal with vacant/derelict property is to have a decent property tax. No one is going leave a building derelict if its costing them a lot of money. It will either be used or sold. Even now with the economy going strong there is no push to increase the property tax(the opposite in fact) despite the benefit it would have dappening house prices and providing a constant amount of money for housing and related services.

hmmm

Villa05 wrote: »

I would not blame the troika for any of this. It was governments choice where to make the cuts.

Spot on. I didn't hear anyone on the left suggesting we should cut the numbers of hospitals, public sector staff, or any of their pet social welfare programs to pay for housing.

We also had a decade of property developers being villified, and receiving abuse if they tried to get out from under NAMA.

We had a decade of banks being villified, and being forced to lend less money.

Now landlords are being villified.

And still some people appear to be mystified as to why we are not building enough houses, and want easy answers - "Tax the rich", "just borrow the money".