Notice given during fixed term lease

TheChizler

I think I know the answer here but I just want to check my understanding before potentially giving someone bad advice.

My brother and his friends have been joint tenants in a house that they have exclusive occupation of for the past 11 months, there is a single lease between them of 12 months duration. A couple of weeks ago they got a notice of termination from the landlord stating they needed the house for themselves for the next 5 years. The notice checked most of the boxes for being valid, correct notice periods, mentioned they can have it again if the landlord doesn't use it etc., except for the all-important statutory declaration, so it's immediately invalid.

Apart from that it's my belief that notice (for use by the landlord or a relative) cannot normally be given during a fixed term lease, unless there's a break clause in the lease. They have to wait until the fixed term is over. I'm just wondering how specific the break clause has to be, could a general statement saying something like "this lease can be terminated with the appropriate notice period if the landlord requires the property for personal use or use by a relative" cover it?

I've told my brother to go check the lease for a break clause, and in the meantime let the landlord know they intend to stay on past the end of the lease so they can't be stuck for costs the landlord might incur advertising the place or moving his stuff or something. They have two weeks left to submit a dispute, they're not sure do they want to fight it or not yet. They don't mind moving if the landlord needs it but some of them have nowhere to go, and could do with some extra time to sort out alternative accommodation. Disputing this would give them a month's breathing space.

Anything I've missed here?

Cuddlesworth

When you cancel a phone contract that has the following conditions,
The term was for 12 months
It requires a month notice
It auto renews at the end of the term.

Do you cancel it after the 12 months or at the 11 month mark to stop the auto renew?

TheChizler

At 11 months but as well you know tenancy law is slightly different to a phone contract

Cuddlesworth

TheChizler wrote: »

At 11 months but as well you know tenancy law is slightly different to a phone contract

Feel free to point out where the law contradicts logic and reason.

Your brother and his friends should look for other places. The landlord wants them out and to be honest, invalid notice or not, if they need a few extra weeks they can take it, he can't do much.

But they should keep a eye out to see if it comes back up for rent again without being offered to them.

TheChizler

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

Feel free to point out where the law contradicts logic and reason.

There are plenty of nonsensical laws out there, I'm not sure what your point is. From experience on this forum I know the RTB don't allow notice be given in general during the fixed term, also on this page:
https://onestopshop.rtb.ie/ending-a-tenancy/how-a-landlord-can-end-a-tenancy/
Maybe that's not explicitly the law but it's the way it works. I'm wondering does anyone know more about the break clauses and how they might relate to this situation.

Your brother and his friends should look for other places. The landlord wants them out and to be honest, invalid notice or not, if they need a few extra weeks they can take it, he can't do much.

That's the plan, they want everyone to stick to the law/PRT and terms of the contract, tenants and landlord included.

davindub

I dont think its valid to say notice cannot be served during a fixed term lease, just said notice cannot terminate the fixed lease unless there is a break clause.

TheChizler

davindub wrote: »

I dont think its valid to say notice cannot be served during a fixed term lease, just said notice cannot terminate the fixed lease unless there is a break clause.

Exactly. That or a couple other reasons. I'm basically just wondering do other people have the same understanding and how specific the break clause has to be. Would something like "the landlord can terminate the lease for any reason" cover it (making a lease pretty pointless from the tenant's point of view) or would it have to specify the reason.

Edit: Sorry, thought you were saying it's incorrect to say you can't give notice during the fixed term, as there are exceptions. As 4ensic says the RTB interpret the fixed term as a period in which notice can't be given, except in limited circumstances.

meijin

They can file RTB dispute last moment, 2+ months until the hearing, appeal, tribunal... may take a while.

4ensic15

davindub wrote: »

I dont think its valid to say notice cannot be served during a fixed term lease, just said notice cannot terminate the fixed lease unless there is a break clause.

The adjudicators construe it as meaning that notice can't be given.

4ensic15

Any ambiguity in the lease will be construed in favour of the tenant. A break clause would be viewed with suspicion. It would effectively be saying that this lease is for a fixed term unless I decide otherwise.

KevRossi

meijin wrote: »

They can file RTB dispute last moment, 2+ months until the hearing, appeal, tribunal... may take a while.

They can also start looking for a new gaff and respect the wishes of the Landlord. They know what he means, so start looking for a new place.

TheChizler

meijin wrote: »

They can file RTB dispute last moment, 2+ months until the hearing, appeal, tribunal... may take a while.

This might be a possibility. I won't be advising them to do this though I'll mention the option. I don't think they want to screw the landlord over in any way, just ensure obligations are met.

I can't remember, if you don't file an official dispute does an invalid notice become valid after 28 days and deemed accepted? Or can it never be valid?

4ensic15

TheChizler wrote: »

This might be a possibility. I won't be advising them to do this though I'll mention the option. I don't think they don't want to screw the landlord over in any way, just ensure obligations are met.

I can't remember, if you don't file an official dispute does an invalid notice become valid after 28 days and deemed accepted? Or can it never be valid?

If a tenant doesn't move out, the landlord must commence a case for overholding. At that stage the validity of the notice can be questioned. If it is invalid the LL must start again. If it is valid the tenant will get 21 days to move out and can appeal to the tribunal within 10 days and stay on until the appeal is heard and decided.

TheChizler

4ensic15 wrote: »

If a tenant doesn't move out, the landlord must commence a case for overholding. At that stage the validity of the notice can be questioned. If it is invalid the LL must start again. If it is valid the tenant will get 21 days to move out and can appeal to the tribunal within 10 days and stay on until the appeal is heard and decided.

They have options if they can't find somewhere soon so. Hopefully they'll find somewhere and it won't come to that. Thanks for the info.

davindub

4ensic15 wrote: »

The adjudicators construe it as meaning that notice can't be given.

I never actually seen it phrased like that, it would be bizarre to say the least, are there examples of this? (not where the notice would have broken the terms of the fixed lease)

4ensic15

davindub wrote: »

I never actually seen it phrased like that, it would be bizarre to say the least, are there examples of this? (not where the notice would have broken the terms of the fixed lease)

I have been to adjudications where it has been decided like that.

CeilingFly

Any new landlord will look for a reference. - Keep this in mind when trying to argue a point that you have little or nothing to gain from.

The term is 12 months, LL is simply saying that there will be no extension and ensuring proper notice is given

davindub

4ensic15 wrote: »

davindub wrote: »

I never actually seen it phrased like that, it would be bizarre to say the least, are there examples of this? (not where the notice would have broken the terms of the fixed lease)

I have been to adjudications where it has been decided like that.

Link to the adjudication?

4ensic15

davindub wrote: »

Link to the adjudication?

The adjudications only give a determination order.

davindub

4ensic15 wrote: »

davindub wrote: »

Link to the adjudication?

The adjudications only give a determination order.

4ensic15 wrote: »

davindub wrote: »

Link to the adjudication?

The adjudications only give a determination order.

True but it will identify the adjudicator.