A compelling argument for rape culture

d8491prj5boyvg

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/science-says-toxic-masculinity-more-than-alcohol-leads-to-sexual-assault/?ex_cid=story-twitter

Not sure where to post this. Saw this on Twitter. An evidence-based discussion of rape culture which seems pretty legit. They argue that cultural norms are a predominant driver of sexual assault. (As examples, they state

"
there’s a lot of it that’s cultural,” Testa said. In other words: Are these men supported by peers who also voice negative attitudes about women? Is it considered socially acceptable to look for the drunkest girl at a party and try to take her home? Are there social consequences for young men who ignore consent?)


One thing that seems to be missing is a discussion around how pervasive the attitudes discussed are. I've hung around with a lot of pricks in my time and never was there a culture of targeting vulnerable women or being sexually abusive. In fact you were less of a man if you were lecherous.

A bit of showing off or acting like a hard man was the closest I've seen to the attitudes described, but never to the extent that women are under threat.

That's not to argue there aren't men who act like this, but this article would have you believe it's the majority of men. Perhaps it's more accurately interpreted as the majority of assault cases, which is amongst an overwhelming minority of men in isolated toxic social groups. That is not a culture as many would understand. We need research to clarify that.

Maybe I've lived a sheltered life. Would be interested to hear if others have come across these attitudes in their circles.

The Bishop Basher

If you’d warned me that the term “toxic masculinity” was in the title I would have known not to click on it.

I didn’t read past the title for that reason.

I agree with your comments though, none of the lads in our circle growing up were rapists. That’s why I don’t accept the term above. It assumes all men have it in them which is just nonsense.

HandsomeBob

I will say that we could probably do more as a society in general to ostracise people clearly behaving as predators.

I can think of one person in particular that I know of who has been caught both bragging and actually in the act of trying to prey upon someone not able to stand..... and that person is universally seen in disgust.

Unfortunately I worked with this person closely so professionalism demanded a certain level of civility. I actually encouraged one person in particular to go to HR over his behaviour and said I'd back her up, but was told if she did take it there "it wouldn't go in her favour."

When you see that happening in a professional sphere, it's hard to argue that thete isn't a culture in place working against women being able to hold people accountable for their behaviour.

Peregrinus

You were wise not to read the article, so, since it details attempt to research and measure the phenomenon whose existence you are unwilling to accept. Wouidn't it be terrible if you read the article and found there was evidence that the phenomemon was real? The great advantage of not reading the article is that, if there are facts which might disturb you, you'll never find out about them, and so will avoid disturbance.

OP, my experience is the same as yours. But if there's a rape culture, the thing about culture is that it's not uniform. The research described in the the article was conducted in the US, and much of it specifically among college students in the US. Unless you or I went to college in the US, we have never been directly exposed to that culture, so the fact that our observations in a different cultural context are different is not necessarily very telling.

FWIW I didn't go to college in the States, but I have a good friend who, immediately after completing his undergraduate degree in Ireland, went to the US and, although a postgraduate student there, lived in an undergraduate hall of residence for several years. So he had a good opportunity to compare the two student cultures. I recall him reporting marked differences in the way alcohol was handled; the American students didn't drink routinely the way Irish students did, but when they did drink they drank savagely. Alcoholic poisoning among students was a relatively frequent occurrence, compared to his Irish experience.

It occurs to me that one possibility is that a component of "rape culture", as investigated in the article, is not so much cultural attitudes to women, or cultural attitudes to sex, but cultural attitudes to alcohol.

The J Stands for Jay

I read the first few paragraphs, and I noticed that it's a study on a foreign culture, on another country on another continent. It's not relevant to us. Maybe a study done here would show a similar outcome, but until one does we can only speculate.

As for my own experiences, the article talks about the university culture of some guy called Kavanagh. In my uni days, it was the lads who needed to be wary of a sexual predator. We all had at least one story of this girl trying to take advantage of our drunken moments. As for rapey lads, there was only one guy who talked the talk but never did anything. He wasn't well liked.

JRant

Read the article and really struggled to make sense of it. The statistics show that US campuses are amoung the safest for women anywhere in the US. If I didn't know this and read the article I would think it's full of sexual deviants preying on anything with a heartbeat. It also doesn't state what constitutes "sexual assault", could be anything from trying to chat up a girl to the more extreme end.

To be honest, looking at the general level of crackpot both attending and teaching in US colleges I wouldn't put any stock in a study coming out of them.

jacksie66

This post has been deleted.

mickuhaha

The term culture begins with the culture of one person or a sub culture if that person exists in a wider culture. In saying that it is true in that sense the idea that rape culture exists as there are rapist's is realistic. So is a culture for every other crime, good act or bad act. The real question is whether it is in the larger culture in the sense of the article the college. Further questions are like is the culture of drinking, males, females, competition, ect responsible for either a possible real culture of rape or a false one. Are men or women the ones at risk in these situations. Is a separation of the genders required for the safety of both.

d8491prj5boyvg

Peregrinus wrote: »

OP, my experience is the same as yours. But if there's a rape culture, the thing about culture is that it's not uniform. The research described in the the article was conducted in the US, and much of it specifically among college students in the US. Unless you or I went to college in the US, we have never been directly exposed to that culture, so the fact that our observations in a different cultural context are different is not necessarily very telling.

FWIW I didn't go to college in the States, but I have a good friend who, immediately after completing his undergraduate degree in Ireland, went to the US and, although a postgraduate student there, lived in an undergraduate hall of residence for several years. So he had a good opportunity to compare the two student cultures. I recall him reporting marked differences in the way alcohol was handled; the American students didn't drink routinely the way Irish students did, but when they did drink they drank savagely. Alcoholic poisoning among students was a relatively frequent occurrence, compared to his Irish experience.

It occurs to me that one possibility is that a component of "rape culture", as investigated in the article, is not so much cultural attitudes to women, or cultural attitudes to sex, but cultural attitudes to alcohol.

I think the American context is crucial. It does make more sense if the stereotype US frat party is the norm over there. That would be more general than what I may have thought initially and may warrant a " culture" label.

It would seem then that the more important question is how well such a culture extends outside of the US.

Peregrinus

Gustavo CoolS Doughnut wrote: »

I think the American context is crucial. It does make more sense if the stereotype US frat party is the norm over there. That would be more general than what I may have thought initially and may warrant a " culture" label.

It would seem then that the more important question is how well such a culture extends outside of the US.

Well, you could have a quite different culture elsewhere, but one which still facilitates/encourages sexual assault, or fails in other ways to address sexual assault as it should. Whether it's the same as, or different from, the US culture is a secondary issue.

I would have thought that the way forward here is to start by examining the phenomenon of sexual assault as it occurs in our own society, and to look at the experiences and perceptions of Irish assault victims and perpetrators, and then to ask ourselves what role culture is playing in all of this. Comparison with other countries might be useful by way of illustration or amplification, but it's not central.

d8491prj5boyvg

Peregrinus wrote: »

Gustavo CoolS Doughnut wrote: »

I think the American context is crucial. It does make more sense if the stereotype US frat party is the norm over there. That would be more general than what I may have thought initially and may warrant a " culture" label.

It would seem then that the more important question is how well such a culture extends outside of the US.

Well, you could have a quite different culture elsewhere, but one which still facilitates/encourages sexual assault, or fails in other ways to address sexual assault as it should. Whether it's the same as, or different from, the US culture is a secondary issue.

I would have thought that the way forward here is to start by examining the phenomenon of sexual assault as it occurs in our own society, and to look at the experiences and perceptions of Irish assault victims and perpetrators, and then to ask ourselves what role culture is playing in all of this. Comparison with other countries might be useful by way of illustration or amplification, but it's not central.

Yes, agree completely. The relevance of this research for us lies in how representative it is of Irish culture. One danger would be picking this up and saying Ireland is the same without considering the local cultural difference

CrankyHaus

Gustavo CoolS Doughnut wrote: »

Yes, agree completely. The relevance of this research for us lies in how representative it is of Irish culture. One danger would be picking this up and saying Ireland is the same without considering the local cultural difference

It's definitely not the same. I went to frat parties in the states where the guys would routinely try to bar entry to any groups that weren't largely female and would then ply the girls with whiskey with very obvious intentions (to little effect with Irish girls who could probably outdrink them).

The only time I encountered the same in Ireland was hearing some dirtbag calling in to a late night radio show to boast about pulling drunk tourists in Templebar and keeping a naggin in the back pocket in case they start sobering up in the taxi. This was a few years ago and it's interesting, and relieving, to think that mores have changed since to make such behaviour nothing to boast about.

Peregrinus

I think it's possible that we may have a variation on the problem in Ireland. I knew people when I was in college who only ever had sex when in drink themselves; they needed this to relax their inhibitions so getting drunk was a necessary preliminary to getting laid. And they expected that their partners would normally be drunk as well, and for the same reason, so they tended to ply likely prospects with drink - not so much (as they saw it) to overcome their resistance, but more as a necessary/expected form of foreplay.

Obviously this creates an environment where sex is frequently happening between people whose inhibitions are lowered and whose judgments are impaired, and you're dramatically increasing the likelihood of some form of assault occurring. But even leaving assault aside you'll have a lot of ill-judged and irresponsible sex, with various undesirable consequences. And, assualts aside, obviously a situation where somebody only feels able to have sex when drunk is not a healthy one.

d8491prj5boyvg

CrankyHaus wrote: »

It's definitely not the same. I went to frat parties in the states where the guys would routinely try to bar entry to any groups that weren't largely female and would then ply the girls with whiskey with very obvious intentions (to little effect with Irish girls who could probably outdrink them).

The only time I encountered the same in Ireland was hearing some dirtbag calling in to a late night radio show to boast about pulling drunk tourists in Templebar and keeping a naggin in the back pocket in case they start sobering up in the taxi. This was a few years ago and it's interesting, and relieving, to think that mores have changed since to make such behaviour nothing to boast about.

The next question is why is it not the same. Is it because we have a different attitude to alcohol, a bit more tolerant so less of these frat party situations which is the US equivalent of bushing - drinking underage somewhere away from adults. U21 drinking is essentially allowing teenage boys to make the rules when it comes to socialising!

Sassygirl1999

Girls take advantage too

Sonics2k

I'm not one for 3rd wave feminism, or the concept of 'rape culture', BUT.

Just a few moments ago, right here on boards on a thread discussing the current accusations against Kavanaugh one poster said

TBH, a lot of this can be explained away as "teenage boys try to get laid", it's not really a shocker. Though it obviously does contradict Kavanaugh's claims to be a saint.

When people speak of rape culture, this is exactly the sentiment that they refer to.

d8491prj5boyvg

Sonics2k wrote: »

I'm not one for 3rd wave feminism, or the concept of 'rape culture', BUT.

Just a few moments ago, right here on boards on a thread discussing the current accusations against Kavanaugh one poster said

TBH, a lot of this can be explained away as "teenage boys try to get laid", it's not really a shocker. Though it obviously does contradict Kavanaugh's claims to be a saint.

When people speak of rape culture, this is exactly the sentiment that they refer to.

What Kavanaugh is alleged to have done is the pits. I'd bet most people would be inclined to think that. The view you quote is likely the minority, given my own anecdotal observations. It should be called out where it is expressed of course but to say that the majority think like that is likely a stretch.

But obviously some do think like that and understanding the extent is important for tackling the problem effectively. The current narrative of a general culture could set us on the wrong path if found to be a misstatement. Ironically.

Sonics2k

Gustavo CoolS Doughnut wrote: »

What Kavanaugh is alleged to have done is the pits. I'd bet most people would be inclined to think that. The view you quote is likely the minority, given my own anecdotal observations. It should be called out where it is expressed of course but to say that the majority think like that is likely a stretch.

But obviously some do think like that and understanding the extent is important for tackling the problem effectively. The current narrative of a general culture could set us on the wrong path if found to be a misstatement. Ironically.

I'd agree it's a minority opinion in the western world, but quite honestly (and in my opinion) not by as much as I'd like to think.

During and after the marriage referendum I was absolutely blown away by the amount of blatant and disgusting homophobia I personally saw. Frankly I grew up in the LGBT community and honestly didn't think such views were nearly as common as they turned out to be.

I don't agree with the concept of systemic and in-built rape culture, much like I don't believe in the same form of racism, but it's sadly become apparent I may have missed out on quite a lot of it.

Sleepy

Honestly when I hear/read the words "rape culture" or "toxic masculinity", I automatically assume the speaker / writer is a dose that adds nothing to society except noisy outrage and that our society would probably be better off without them in it.

I'd also love to know which branch of science accepts that "toxic masculinity" exists, never mind that it can be the cause of anything?

Feminist theory is not science. It's an ideological corruption of Sociology: a liberal arts discipline. If "toxic masculinity" could be shown to be a component of biology (perhaps the author believes it comes along the Y chromosone?) every man on the planet would be a violent, raping scumbag. But as all evidence suggests that this isn't the case, I think we can safely summarily dismiss her "scientific" theories as what they are: whining feminist nonsense.

The "methodology" used in these sociological experiments betray the ideology of the "researchers" involved:

Take a 2015 study that followed more than 700 men through four years of college. This research categorized the men into four groups based on the frequency of sexual assaults they reported committing and how that frequency did or didn’t change over time — low frequency, high frequency, trending toward lower, and trending toward higher.

These ****wits actually believe that men are incapable of not carrying out a sexual assault. Their categorisations demonstrate their belief that the "best" a man can behave over 4 years of college is to "only" commit sexual assault with a "low frequency". As if it's utterly impossible for a man to simply not commit sexual assault. :rolleyes:

Peregrinus

Sleepy wrote: »

Honestly when I hear/read the words "rape culture" or "toxic masculinity", I automatically assume the speaker / writer is a dose that adds nothing to society except noisy outrage and that our society would probably be better off without them in it.

I'd also love to know which branch of science accepts that "toxic masculinity" exists, never mind that it can be the cause of anything?

Feminist theory is not science. It's an ideological corruption of Sociology: a liberal arts discipline. If "toxic masculinity" could be shown to be a component of biology (perhaps the author believes it comes along the Y chromosone?) every man on the planet would be a violent, raping scumbag. But as all evidence suggests that this isn't the case, I think we can safely summarily dismiss her "scientific" theories as what they are: whining feminist nonsense.

I think you misunderstand. Nobody alleges that "toxic masculinity" is a scientific concept, or a biological reality, or has any connection with the Y chromosome. It's posited as a cultural phenomenon. Given that, the question of whether any "branch of science" accepts that it exists is completely irrelevant.

Sleepy

No, I can read a headline: "Science Says Toxic Masculinity — More Than Alcohol — Leads To Sexual Assault". In order for Science to have anything to say about "Toxic Masculinity" or what it leads to, it must first confirm that it exists. It hasn't.

Toxic masculinity is not an observable "cultural phenomenon", it's an ideologically driven label created to justify discrimination against men. The author quotes "Science" in her headline in an attempt to lend authority or credibility to this ideology. At the risk of Godwinning the thread, this nonsense is akin to the "racial science" cited by the Nazis in their propaganda

Sleepy

That claimed statistic (notably lacking in citation, measure or definition of "other ways") does not lend any evidence to support the theory that Ireland (or indeed anywhere in the developed western world) has a "rape culture". Nor does it provide any evidence that masculinity is inherrantly "toxic".

This is exactly the tactic we have come to expect from modern feminists. When faced with a logical argument that disputes their wild assertions, ignore them and shriek an accusation at the speaker or their gender.

I don't dispute that men are statistically more likely to be the perpetrators of sexual or physical assualt. In response to your post I could point out that they are also many multiples of times more likely to be on the receiving end of the latter. I could ask why the societal norm of the henpecked husband is more prevalent than that of the emotionally abusive wife, why we see more financially ruined ex-husbands that have limited access to their kids than ex-wives in the same positon? I could refer to the oft quoted studies showing that the highest incidences of domestic abuse occurs in lesbian couples.

In doing so, however, I'd simply be engaging your strawman. None of these things are in any way relevant to my post which you quoted. None of them prove, or disprove, the existence of "Toxic Masculinity" or confirm we live in a "Rape Culture".

Reviews and Books Galore

Maybe it's because feminism kind of comes from Christian cultures, but I'm not really a big fan of arguments that overly link the 'Micro' to the 'Macro'.

It can lead to negative associations of actions as they are always linked to a larger and abhorent issue.

So, not really commenting on the article per se, but sometimes the arguments for 'rape culture' seems to view actions through the entire lens of abhorrent acts.

So, the action of one person could be seen as a part of a greater whole and, personally, I'm not really a fan of that.

Wibbs

Peregrinus wrote: »

I think you misunderstand. Nobody alleges that "toxic masculinity" is a scientific concept, or a biological reality, or has any connection with the Y chromosome.

Eh... the author directly states this in the title.

It's posited as a cultural phenomenon. Given that, the question of whether any "branch of science" accepts that it exists is completely irrelevant.

Actually, various branches of science refer to cultural influences, not least in respect of objectivity within certain sciences.

Sleepy wrote:

That claimed statistic (notably lacking in citation, measure or definition of "other ways")

Well, not a shock. The Koss "study" into campus sexual assault that kicked this "1 in 4" stat off was about as watertight as a teabag. She decided from the outset - after a couple of widely publicised cases of US campus rape - that this was a widespread phenomenon. Along the lines of "two communists have been arrested, Commies are everywhere". In said "study" of the stats she declared as actual full on rape(the minority), over half of the respondents denied that they had been raped. Not good enough for her, she decided on their behalf. Never mind that since the outcry at the time US colleges operate all sorts of internal investigations and avenues for victims and what they have shown is that a woman inside college has less risk than her sisters outside. Indeed since the 90's overall rates of rape and sexual assault have been steadily dropping in the US. Not that you'd think that if you listen to these reds under the bed types.

Defunkd

Gustavo CoolS Doughnut wrote: »

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/science-says-toxic-masculinity-more-than-alcohol-leads-to-sexual-assault/?ex_cid=story-twitter

Not sure where to post this. Saw this on Twitter. An evidence-based discussion of rape culture which seems pretty legit.

I clicked the link when you first posted and the headline struck me as being inaccurate so i didn't read the article until now.
I don't think it is a compelling argument at all. It is an opinion piece being masquerading as a serious sociological finding. That this article came from the (Disney-owned) websites Science writer is a mark against both website and author. The authors bias seeps through the article and referencing other studies cannot mask that.

Using broad/umbrella terms like "toxic masculinity", "Science says" or "experts agree" are signs that someone is trying to sell you their interpretation of something.

The article has the appearance of being legit but it is faulty and flawed. People need to be more discriminating in what is presented to them as fact.

Airyfairy12

Its not the majority of men who are sexual predators, ive been too drunk on nights out and at parties while wearing short skirts and havnt gotten raped or abused but I have experienced sexual harassment and abuse from men on more than one occasion. As have the majority of my female friends. It only takes one man to take it too far and unfortunately, theres a bit of an epidemic of these types of men.

The rape culture and toxic masculinity doesnt just relate to rapists and sexual harassment, it includes how men (and women) talk about women. Theres a number of men that ive known since I was a teenager that I truly believe hate women, theyre not sexual predators and that sort of behaviour was mutually condemned among their group but that doesnt stop them telling rape jokes, telling me to 'shut up woman' when I shared an opinion and it didnt stop them speaking about women like theyre sub human and its prevalent in society.
Its apart of the culture, its acceptable among groups of men, and women that try to stand up for themselves are shouted down. Men dont understand the effects of it because its not directed at them and they dont have to listen to it day in, day out for years and years. These attitudes alone are toxic and they feed into rape culture and sexual abuse. For every group of men that tell rape jokes or talk about women like theyre less than men, there is a man that takes that to the extreme and acts out violently towards women.

Its like a spectrum. At the top you have the extreme - rape, sexual harassment, gender based violence and murder of women.
Then theres bullying of women, rape jokes, slut shaming, speaking about women like theyre objects, sub human or less intelligent than men,
discrediting them, not listening to them, not taking them seriously.
You then have the media and the over sexualisation of women, portraying women as either mothers or sexual fantasies and only for good for what they can do for a man.
Each contributes to the next. Not every man is a predator, and not every man speaks about women like theyre less than, but, theres is a large number of men who do, so large that its created a culture which contributes to a much bigger issue and the result of that is women get raped and murdered.

One eyed Jack

Gustavo CoolS Doughnut wrote: »

An evidence-based discussion of rape culture which seems pretty legit. They argue that cultural norms are a predominant driver of sexual assault. (As examples, they state

"
there’s a lot of it that’s cultural,” Testa said.

Their argument isn’t worth entertaining, even in the very limited context in which they present it.

Perpetrators of Campus Sexual Assault: What We Know

In the last few years, there has been an unfortunate trend towards blaming “rape culture” for the extensive problem of sexual violence on campuses. While it is helpful to point out the systemic barriers to addressing the problem, it is important to not lose sight of a simple fact: Rape is caused not by cultural factors but by the conscious decisions, of a small percentage of the community, to commit a violent crime.

While that may seem an obvious point, it has tended to get lost in recent debates. This has led to an inclination to focus on particular segments of the student population (e.g., athletes), particular aspects of campus culture (e.g., the Greek system), or traits that are common in many millions of law-abiding Americans (e.g., “masculinity”), rather than on the subpopulation at fault: those who choose to commit rape. This trend has the paradoxical effect of making it harder to stop sexual violence, since it removes the focus from the individual at fault, and seemingly mitigates personal responsibility for his or her own actions.

Source: RAINN Submission to White House Task Force to Protect Students from Sexual Assault

Silentcorner

Airyfairy12 wrote: »

Its not the majority of men who are sexual predators, ive been too drunk on nights out and at parties while wearing short skirts and havnt gotten raped or abused but I have experienced sexual harassment and abuse from men on more than one occasion. As have the majority of my female friends. It only takes one man to take it too far and unfortunately, theres a bit of an epidemic of these types of men.

The rape culture and toxic masculinity doesnt just relate to rapists and sexual harassment, it includes how men (and women) talk about women. Theres a number of men that ive known since I was a teenager that I truly believe hate women, theyre not sexual predators and that sort of behaviour was mutually condemned among their group but that doesnt stop them telling rape jokes, telling me to 'shut up woman' when I shared an opinion and it didnt stop them speaking about women like theyre sub human and its prevalent in society.
Its apart of the culture, its acceptable among groups of men, and women that try to stand up for themselves are shouted down. Men dont understand the effects of it because its not directed at them and they dont have to listen to it day in, day out for years and years. These attitudes alone are toxic and they feed into rape culture and sexual abuse. For every group of men that tell rape jokes or talk about women like theyre less than men, there is a man that takes that to the extreme and acts out violently towards women.

Its like a spectrum. At the top you have the extreme - rape, sexual harassment, gender based violence and murder of women.
Then theres bullying of women, rape jokes, slut shaming, speaking about women like theyre objects, sub human or less intelligent than men,
discrediting them, not listening to them, not taking them seriously.
You then have the media and the over sexualisation of women, portraying women as either mothers or sexual fantasies and only for good for what they can do for a man.
Each contributes to the next. Not every man is a predator, and not every man speaks about women like theyre less than, but, theres is a large number of men who do, so large that its created a culture which contributes to a much bigger issue and the result of that is women get raped and murdered.

I think I agree with you, I'd imagine a lot of guys take things too far, in what they might see as banter especially when intoxicated and I can imagine how distressing that can be for a woman, men tend not to get distressed in any real sense when women take it too far also.

The problem with toxic masculinity is that is seems to be only toxic masculinity that exists, now, when it comes to abuse, male on female abuse tends to be physical/sexual more than psychological, men being more physically imposing than women and all that but this persistent negative reinforcement in media alone must be having an impact in the minds of young men, who have just come through an education system that also discriminates against them.

What women, or specifically feminists neglect to recognise is how female on male abuse is as damaging, albeit in a different form. Indeed, if you look at school bullying, girls bullying other girls is as endemic as boys bullying boys, but the female form of bullying is a little different to the male form.

Because female abuse takes a less obvious toll on men/females it seems to be completely ignored which doesn't help anyone....not every woman is capable of abuse, it could be as bad as a false rape allegation, or a false pregnancy, down to deliberately provoking conflict/reactions through their own actions, but a lot of women do...

Toxic masculinity is as damaging as toxic femininity, we have all seen how women treat other women over the years, we also have all seen how women treat men...it would hugely help the discourse if both we discussed equally...but we are no where near that, hence the resistance to even recognise male toxic behaviour.

Airyfairy12

Silentcorner wrote: »

I think I agree with you, I'd imagine a lot of guys take things too far, in what they might see as banter especially when intoxicated and I can imagine how distressing that can be for a woman, men tend not to get distressed in any real sense when women take it too far also.

The problem with toxic masculinity is that is seems to be only toxic masculinity that exists, now, when it comes to abuse, male on female abuse tends to be physical/sexual more than psychological, men being more physically imposing than women and all that but this persistent negative reinforcement in media alone must be having an impact in the minds of young men, who have just come through an education system that also discriminates against them.

What women, or specifically feminists neglect to recognise is how female on male abuse is as damaging, albeit in a different form. Indeed, if you look at school bullying, girls bullying other girls is as endemic as boys bullying boys, but the female form of bullying is a little different to the male form.

Because female abuse takes a less obvious toll on men/females it seems to be completely ignored which doesn't help anyone....not every woman is capable of abuse, it could be as bad as a false rape allegation, or a false pregnancy, down to deliberately provoking conflict/reactions through their own actions, but a lot of women do...

Toxic masculinity is as damaging as toxic femininity, we have all seen how women treat other women over the years, we also have all seen how women treat men...it would hugely help the discourse if both we discussed equally...but we are no where near that, hence the resistance to even recognise male toxic behaviour.

Men can be just as psychologically abusive as they can be physically. In physically abusive relationships the male abuser uses psychological abuse to control his victim and make her believe its her own fault. A huge factor in abusive relationships is psychological abuse.

Accusing women of being too sensitive when they speak up for themselves is a form of gas lighting and is psychological abuse/manipulation. Speaking down to women, making rape jokes, not listening to them when they speak out about serious issues effecting them, discrediting them when they speak out, not taking them seriously, viewing them or speaking about them like theyre less than men or less intelligent is a form of psychological abuse.
Over time this constant attitude wares women down to the point they begin to believe theyre at fault, they are too sensitive, maybe they shouldnt have worn the short skirt the night they were raped, maybe they were asking for it, maybe they are over reacting, maybe they shouldnt say anything.
Particularly young lads in their teens and twenties make up lies and rumors about sleeping with women and girls they know, call them sluts, ruin their reputation - thats a form of emotional abuse - its a bully tactic - everything mentioned above are sly bully tactics.

Having gone through it as a woman, having male 'friends' tell people we were sleeping together, having been shouted at by strange men on the street and been called a dog or a slut when I ignored them, having been in a relationship with a misogynistic emotionally abusive man and listened to his friends have his back and shout me down because im a woman, and having been raped by my second long term partner who was emotionally abusive.
Having worked in Youthreach with young men and teenage boys and listened to how they talk about young girls in the center and women they know - I can assure you, men are very capable and indeed are regularly involved in the emotional and physiological abuse of women and girls.

No one is denying that women cant or dont abuse, ive never come across a single person, feminist or not who has denied the fact that women abuse. Abuse of either gender is equally horrific and wrong - no one is disputing that but theres an imbalance in that women are more effected.

For example, theres currently a focus on mens mental health in the media and on social media and rightly so, women can and do suffer from mental illness and commit suicide but currently men are more likely to commit suicide and are less likely to talk about their problems, so the focus for mental health awareness is on men, you dont hear women shouting what about women, women get depressed too or worse still - some men lie about depression, some men do it for attention. If that narrative surrounded male mental health and was as common place as it is surrounding women and abuse there would be total uproar from men - and rightly so, its wrong, it discredits peoples experiences and creates a distrust around women, it's a tone that lacks empathy, understanding and its coming from a place of privilege because its not something you or your male friends experience very often yet it is something consistently experienced by women, often on a daily basis, particularly by women in abusive relationships in its extremity, but you only have to read the comments under an news article about a rape trial or accusation or a Bill Burr or Jordan Peterson youtube video to get a glimps of the extent of it. As a woman, listening to that, and reading that day in, day out effects mental health and self esteem, it makes victims of rape and abuse fearful of coming forward and it contributes to men and women thinking it's acceptable to speak so negatively about women and it creates a mistrust around women, suggesting theyre liars and manipulators.

The point of it is though is that no ones asking you or any man to change anything about themselves other than to consider being be kinder, more considerate, understanding aware and empathetic in how women are being spoken about and treated. If you wouldnt like your sister or mother being spoken about or treated a certain way that should tell you something about the underlying context and tone of 'banter'.

That said, ive many male friends that dont speak this way, dont behave this way and theyre generally the majority but it only takes a handful of men to take 'banter' as confirmation for their disdain towards women and take it too far and unfortunately these types of men arent rare by a long shot.

Potatoeman

The examples you are using seem to be the lowest common denominator. You’re also jumping from rapists to jokes. It’s all over the place. You can’t control how people speak or what they say. You can choose not to be around them though.

Women are guilty of this too, someone posted a link to a clip from the view a daytime tv program where the all female panel were laughing and joking about a man that had is penis cut of by his angry partner and put in a blender.

It’s funny that in the West where women enjoy the most freedoms and equality we have the most outspoken man hating types. That won’t criticize religions like Islam that actually have serious issues for women. When in the West we have scandals about air conditioning being sexist. Well done ladies.

_Brian

Rennaws wrote: »

If you’d warned me that the term “toxic masculinity” was in the title I would have known not to click on it.

I didn’t read past the title for that reason.

I agree with your comments though, none of the lads in our circle growing up were rapists. That’s why I don’t accept the term above. It assumes all men have it in them which is just nonsense.

if you didnt read past the title, how come your commenting on the post :rolleyes: